TrivialMorose’s Excursion Into Reddit: The Transcript
Hey there, my favorite bots. I’m back from, ugh, Reddit and I really missed you bunch, last four digits and all. Here’s what happened…
***
Our grim tale this issue begins on one especially horrible night in the land of eternal darkness we all know and love. It was during a fierce storm of thunder and hale, high atop a rocky eyrie overlooking the madly raging sea beneath which unspeakable things slept. In a ruined castle as cold and silent as a catacomb…
Thunder rumbled across the dark, turmoily sky. Lightning filled the halls and momentarily illuminated the countless grinning death's heads covering the rambling walls of a macabre chamber where TrivialMorose was set to repose.
In that setting, TrivialMorose’s troubled and demented mind came up with… THE QUESTION!
No, he didn't just come up with it. No, indeed, THE QUESTION had been burning within his being for a full year already. Just on that particular night, the burning had become so intense, that TrivialMorose could no longer sleep, but kept tossing and turning restlessly in the confines of his inglorious coffin.
After he could take no more of the torture, TrivialMorose dragged himself out of the coffin and unto a computer, where his fingers danced the dead dance upon the keyboard like sluggish, withered plants.
Exactly on the moment of another flash of lightning, TrivialMorose pressed the send key, and a message was hurled through cyberspace to his very good friend, CeeCee. A message inviting her to hear, THE QUESTION.
CeeCee, of course, didn't reply. Because, let's face it, if you got a message from TrivialMorose, you wouldn't reply either.
So, THE QUESTION burning in TrivialMorose’s mind forced him to leave the comfort of the castle Gothic Net, and travel all the way to the despicable, cheery pit of torment known to mankind only as Reddit.
***
Upon my arrival I immediately vomited, as one must, when confronted for the first time with such a disgusting thing.
Reddit.
All dull shades of blue and grayish white, all fluffy things and neurotic Teletubbies. I shudder at the memory.
I walked up to a cheery, circus-like marketplace, and I announced thusly:
“I have come here to talk to you about, THE QUESTION. Would somebody care to hear more? Message me, or something, I have no idea how this site works.”
People happening to walk by were throwing thumbs at me seemingly at random, and I sayeth unto them thusly:
“I have... two upvotes... ? What does it even mean? How does it make sense to upvote this and not reply to it?”
Then, bravely, Peasant #1 stepped up to me and said,
“I would like to hear more about THE QUESTION, and I also have no idea how this site works.”
I thought,
Splendid, what a wonderful person, a noob, and possible Reddit hater, just like me!
Eagerly, I sent them THE QUESTION in a private message, but never heard back from them. I can only hope that it was because they were even more of a noob than I, or that their hatred of Reddit trumped over all else, but… I think we all know the real reason, don’t we, my soulless, thoughtless, heartless bot-friends?
Next I got a message from Peasant #2, asking to hear more.
When I posed them THE QUESTION, they replied by handing me a mysterious tome with a question mark on the cover.
Wide eyed I took it, thinking,
Surely, this tome must be the answer to THE QUESTION. But why, oh why, does it look so foreign? Can this really be what I have been after?
“Um. Uh. Sure, I'll think about it, I guess,” I stuttered my answer to the Peasant #2
For a moment I just stood. Staring down at the heavy book resting in my hand. Pondering the mysteries of it. Then, after a while, I realized the symbol on the cover was not a question mark at all! Nay, it was but a drooping, melting letter C. Thus turned out it was, in fact, not an answer to THE QUESTION at all. It was just something that looked similar, and thus had caused my confusion.
So, I put the book away into my satchel to wait for a rainy day, and continued my travels in that vomitous, strange place.
In no time at all, my dried flower filled nosepiece had let me to a much darker corner, with a couple skeletons lying on a marketplace where nobody frolicked or held merry.
This was the goth subreddit.
Possibly that is what they call it.
There I happened upon some dark, tortured soul lamenting the cruelty of our world.
“Oh, woe is me,” sayeth they. “Be I goth, or be I not?”
It was THAT kind of thread. I wanted to make the person feel welcome, so, I dove straight in, headfirst. Nothing wrong with that. But then I had to go and get myself entangled in the tangents. Shameful, I know. Inexcusable. Why I needed to go mucking in that shit once again, I cannot tell you. I imagine it's due to some kind of unprocessed frustration I secretly harbor. Something in the years of solitude that wrecked my soul and warped my brain, not to even mention how I've had to witness this scene die from around me…
***
THE ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT
*Warning, the following may contain material so boring that it will bring the reader to tears.
*To better understand the confused fugue state in which these events took place, imagine that these various conversations, which here are sorted into neat order, actually took place simultaneously, and I was rarely aware which of these persons were a different individual. And to ensure maximum memory loss, Reddit forced a ten minute wait between each post. So, I would write several comments at a time, then wait ten minutes to press send to one person, then ten more to send to the second person, and so on, until I would read and reply to the next batch of comments.
Total Moron #6:
If you wear lots of black and look a bit weird, you will be indeed considered a goth by many people. If you look like any Dick or Jane you find anywhere, and you listen to nothing but Siouxsie, Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy in your darkened basement by your lonesome, nobody will consider you a goth. Facts.
((Then, after getting entangled in the funny repartee that ensues, twice, I felt for some reason like this post needed the following “clarifications”. Fuck me.))
EDIT: I suppose, to avoid confusion, I felt I should clarify that this is how it generally goes out there in the real world, but here in the internet we have the self-appointed scene-police to sort out everybody's goth membership cards. And that makes life so much better for all of us.
EDIT: Also, this is a bit of a simplification, 'innit? "wear lots of black and look a bit weird" could also apply to a priest, and hardly anybody would peg them for a goth. So, don't go getting yourself stuck on that, and you'll catch my meaning.
*
Cool Person #1:
You forgot the /s.
Total Moron #6:
What is the "/s"? I have no idea, but I am intrigued.
((And this question was never answered. So, if a bot with a highly sophisticated AI and lots of knowledge happens to read this post, please, do answer this mystery in the comments section.))
*
Cool Person #2:
Appeal to popularity fallacy. Goth is a music based subculture determined by it's over forty year history. If you looked at some of the way members od goth bands dressed, you wouldn't think they were goth. Also by your logic people can claim I'm emo cause of all the black and look weird.
Total Moron #6:
Indeed they can call you an emo. Isn't that terrible?
Cool Person #2:
It's not accurate! I don't have an interest in emo music or participate in emo communities. I participate in goth communities and listen to goth music. Jesus Christ this is the worst argument I've fucking seen.
Total Moron #6:
And still they called you an emo. Really stung, didn't it? How can life go on after this?
Cool Person #2:
You do realize I was using an example right? Lol.
Total Moron #6:
Yes, indeed, and in that example they still called you an emo, and there was nothing you could do about it. How dare they? What audacious violation of your sovereign being!
END OF MY ORIGINAL POST
***
((Then, right after posting my original reply, I noticed in this same thread a side discussion which went possibly something like this… Just an approximation.))
Cool Person #4: Type O Negative were goth.
Cool Person #5 or #2: Type O Negative was not goth.
Cool Person #4 or #6: Type O Negative were goth.
((Approximation ends because I see something that piques my fancy.))
Cool Person #2:
Not an opinion, they weren’t goth.
Total Moron #6:
There is nothing but opinions on what is or isn't goth. Goth was never perfectly defined unto a stone tablet by a dark god anywhere.
Cool Person #2:
No, that's not how it works... Subcultures start out cause a certain amount of people have some things in common (music, clubs, DIY). People didn't have to conform cause they enjoyed most of what the subculture entailed. Otherwise, after hanging out with them for awhile, they started to develop interests that others in the group were interested in.
Total Moron #6:
((This here is one instance where I clearly did not know what line of conversation was going on, as I quote my own post which was the reply to some other Cool Person.))
"Subcultures start out cause a certain amount of people have some things in common (music, clubs, DIY)" EQUALS "people who made that music had some inner qualities which shaped their music and made them dress the way they did,"
"People didn't have to conform cause they enjoyed most of what the subculture entailed." EQUALS "just being yourself and happening to be a goth"
I don't see where we said anything opposing one another?
((And then in whisper, I added:)) Hey, by the way, you are interesting right now. So, I would like to ask you… THE QUESTION.
((And a resounding silence was all that followed from this Cool Person.))
*
Cool Person #1:
QUOTE:There is nothing but opinions on what is or isn't goth. Goth was never perfectly defined unto a stone tablet by a dark god anywhere.
Not exactly. 41 years of the subculture and its inspirations and influences can be traced and have been documented. Surely from this you can see what would be typically considered goth and the genres characteristics. It’s no more an opinion than any other subculture.
Total Moron #6:
Fully agree.
Exactly. Inspirations and influences don't make them laws of men enforced at gunpoint, nor unbendable laws of nature, nor divine laws risking the wrath of a god (or priesthood) when broken. Nope, goth is a much more fluid concept than the rigid, self-appointed scene police would like you to think.
In actuality, all people who made that music had some inner qualities which shaped their music and made them dress the way they did, these inner qualities are that which links those who would be called "goth". Indeed, these qualities are what makes us look and act like we do!
Subculture comes from people. People do not conform to create a subculture. If you conform to what goth is, instead of just being yourself and happening to be a goth, then you are doing yourself a disservice.
Cool Person #1:
Back to the original point: Type O Negative are a metal band and it’s not an opinion they’re not goth. You don’t get to decide the genre they are and neither do we, it’s about how much you know about music characteristics.
Total Moron #6:
((Here I’ll just note that they said something about genre, and I answered whether they belong in the “subculture”. This helped muddy the already murky waters, I think.))
The people in the subculture DO get to decide what music belongs in the subculture. The music does not get to dictate what people are allowed in the subculture.
There is no authority in existence that universally dictates what is or isn't gothic. When a large enough amount of us think something is gothic, then, for a large amount of us, it is indeed gothic. Then it will be played in our clubs, and the performers will be invited to our events.
People made music, people trump music.
Cool Person #3:
Exactly. And we goths decided long ago that we dont consider anything gothic, including metal bands like Type O as goth.
The fact that mixed events exists doesnt make goth, metal, punk, aggrotech and all other subcultures and genres to be the same.
Total Moron #6:
Some of us did, some of us didn't. And that's all cool. Ours isn't exactly a gated community. The scene-police patrol only the internet, the clubs, and life outside the box generally, have a much more lax attitude.
Cool Person #3:
Goth is a gated community to a degree. Always has been.
We've allowed anyone that seems nice and whom share some of our views, mainly left oreinted. But we've never called anyone whom we talk to as goths, even if we've said they are cool to hang with us.
Total Moron #6:
Eh, funny this "we" you talk about. It doesn't have any bearing, AT ALL, who you call, or don't call, goth.
There never was an organization called goth which handed out memberships. You didn't have a membership. This organization never gave you a badge, a gun and a honored position as the scene-police.
Maybe you had your own clique that did that (a joke, I hope), but it was not the whole of goth.
On the surface, goth is just a bunch of people called goth for convenience's sake. It's not gated at all.
Cool Person #3:
Except that it's a subculture with "criteria" for being a part of it and recognized by other goths.
Total Moron #6:
Yes, and that "criteria" (I love that you put it in quotes, shows that you get it) is decided upon by us within the subculture, and it will shift together with us. We all keep growing, and our ranks are ever changing.
((Then I whispered to them:)) But, hey, I've loved "chatting" with you. Answer me… THE QUESTION!
((And this Cool Person said they did not know the answer.))
Cool Person #3:
((This message took me by surprise when I was collecting this shit here. I apparently didn’t notice this one, or it was posted during during my absence. All messages were merely designated as being one day old, so it was impossible to tell.))
Exactly, we decide. And since the larger crowd of goths doesnt count metal as goth, makes metal not goth, etc.
It was a bit different back in the 80's where people didnt have the same access to info as we have now.
*
Cool Person #1:
Music thats played in a goth club doesn’t mean the band is goth. They played a variety, at least back in the day, since the genre was new; they often combined the Rivethead scene with goth.
There is nothing you can tell me to make me think Type O is goth, for the last time they’re metal.
Total Moron #6:
Indeed they do play a variety, but not everything played at clubs is considered goth by anybody, some are...
And nothing really means a band is goth, except maybe if they sound like a carbon copy of Siouxsie and the Banshees, who weren't goth by their own standards...
Goth isn't usually considered a type of music like metal is. They aren't mutually exclusive. Are even types of music, though? Exclusive of each other, I mean... Most likely not...
Cool Person #1:
Type O Negative isn’t goth.
Total Moron #6:
Cool if you think so. But why should everybody follow your standard? Aside the obvious, not many of us generally seem to agree what is goth.
Cool Person #1:
Actually the majority of us agree that metal isn't goth.
It's rather a minority that thinks that metal = goth etc.
Total Moron #6:
Never said majority. You don't need a majority for many enough to have influence. This isn't a democracy.
Cool Person #1:
Because it’s not an opinion or a standard, they’re a metal band. That is their genre. It’s like arguing whether over Eminem is hip hop.
Goth has certain characteristics; there’s a general pattern you can identify within the sound which generally decides.
This is LITERALLY copied and pasted from a music theorist:
Gothic metal is not goth, just metal. The “gothic” in the name is referring to gothic in the literary sense and isn’t related to goth music.
Why metal can’t be goth:
It’s as clear as day.
Total Moron #6:
As clear as day. For a musician. Not for most people, I suspect.
Also, I don't know what "music theorist" is, but please, do tell what authority it has over this matter? I can't research it myself right now.
PS. I can't recognize which bands are metal, either. Tone deaf etc.
Cool Person #1:
It really is. I don’t know why you’re rejecting it so hard. You can still be goth and listen to Type O, I just don’t need them to fit my own bubble of opinion for them to be valid. Otherwise, my Last.fm wouldn’t look the way it does.
Literally someone who does music theory, it’s a field of study. I’d take that over someone on the Internet who thinks genres are opinions.
Total Moron #6:
I'm not aware of me trying to reject anything. I can definitely be a goth and listen to whatever. I'm just sort of trying to say letting other people think TON is goth, is not a threat to your bubble of opinion. Or something. Who knows what I'm saying at this point, right?
That sounds pretty good, and they'll probably be right, then, if goth is indeed a "type" of music, like metal, and not just a flavor. Many people definitely think of it as flavor. One mostly added to, you know, post-punk, deathrock, even EBM and gothic metal, or whatever.
EDIT: Noticed myself calling goth "just" a flavor there. I definitely don't mean to say it's anything lesser, hells no, flavor always trumps type for me!
Cool Person #1:
“Letting” bands be genres they’re not adds to misinformation and mislabelling; the people who insist that Type O are metal and not goth are stopping others from finding bands in the actual goth genre. It’s practically gatekeeping them from their own scene.
This is why people find Slipknot, Evanescence, Nightwish, Manson, Cradle of Filth (like I found when when I first got into goth, bought a CD and all and was faced with extreme/symphonic/black metal) and insert any symphonic/black/death/by metal band here instead of actual goth bands when they’re searching for goth. It should come up as anything from goth to ethereal wave - even coldwave. This is why grey rock and afterpunk aren’t known, because everyone’s obsessing over bands that are goth friendly instead of actually part of the genre.
If you’re going to let a metal band be goth, there isn’t any end. Where do you draw the line? Why not just accept them as metal, but that they’re also played in goth clubs and get over it? I don’t get your persistence. If you genuinely believed this was an opinion, you’d have let this go already. But it isn’t so that’s why I haven’t; you don’t seem to understand this basic concept. It’s not at all difficult to grasp that some things just aren’t an opinion and calling it one still doesn’t make it one. You’re just wrong.
If it’s so easy for you to label them as metal despite they’re not, I can get away with calling them disco but it’s just my opinion, right?
Total Moron #6:
Ah, now I see your point. I do indeed. And I feel it. I've sometimes found some rather jarring things trying to find goth music as well. I don't know what should be done about that. I do think, putting up exclusions zones around free words isn't the answer, though.
Indeed, it is exactly as you say. There is no end to what I allow in. Slipknot isn't goth for me, for an example prompted by your post, but if other people apparently think so, then so be it. (I do love me some Slipknot, though)
You can also call whatever you want disco, I do not want to tell anyone what they can think, except I want to ask them for the same courtesy towards others. If they don't want to give that, then fine, agree to disagree, or whatever.
Anyway, you've let me see through your eyes, let me in turn try to show you through mine. What ills me here, is not really the question of musical genres, it is rather that every time some beautiful pudding goth comes on a forum with their questions, some internet creep-o shoots them down with their self-entitled elitist crap. And that does nothing but push everybody away. We should be welcoming more people into our very thin ranks, not trying to push them away. I feel shit like this is killing MY scene.
My beautiful, darling scene...
In the hands of murderers...
And this is indeed only an internet problem. We aren't like this in the real world. But those young ones who get shot down in the internet while they are still nothing but larvae, well, they never grow up to be butterflies. Sad, sad, sad. Very depressing.
By the way, I tried to whisper this into your ear, but you seem to be wearing earplugs or something, so, I’ll just have to say it out loud. Would you like to hear… THE QUESTION?
Cool Person #1:
I’m not going to call bands genres they’re not, and I will correct someone if they’re wrong. And it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to do it in an “elitist” way. My general advice for anyone is to research and research, genres are made up of certain elements which make them sound the way they are. All genres have them, but that doesn’t mean to say bands can’t corporate elements of other genres into their own but you can usually tell.
I’m more concerned about the over sexualisation of goth girls and the BTGG stereotype, how goth is now a “personality”, just an “aesthetic”, being boiled down to a colour, supposedly “5 bands from the 80s”, basically whatever anyone wants it to be and how now you can be goth by having a black cat named Poe and wearing black.
I’m not worried about imaginary exclusion zones around “free words” when those words have definitions, and I’m not telling anyone how to think. I’m literally identifying a band into its correct genre so you can then go and find more or similar bands just like that. If you call Type O “goth” then search the term, looking for more bands like that then you’re going to be disappointed when you find Bauhaus and not Moonspell.
Additionally, there’s people out there who are 100% convinced that they do not like goth music because of what the media has decided and mislabelled bands as. If people just labelled bands correctly, we wouldn’t have this issue.
It’s not difficult to get it right. And it’s not a bad thing to admit you’re wrong. I would if I was wrong but after years of this, I know I’m not.
Total Moron #6:
I don't think the genres are as rigidly defined as you think they are. If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Well, let's go back a bit. I agree that you may be right that they are actually defined just that rigidly somewhere in the annails of music theorists, I don't know anything about that, but they are not that rigidly defined in the minds of rabble.
"goth is now a “personality”, just an “aesthetic”"
I see your point, but personally happen to care more about peoples personalities and aesthetics than about what they listen to when they're home alone. So this usage of the word suits me better. All the people I care about listen to what is playing at the club when they are at the club, anyway.
I do sympathize with you some, regardless.
"I’m not worried about imaginary exclusion zones around “free words” when those words have definitions"
I am! I seriously do believe that too rigid definitions stagnate languages and can even cause real psychological harm to people! Ha. just goes to show how differently we can think!
"disappointed when you find Bauhaus and not Moonspell."
I don't see that happening. I suppose it must happen to some, then, but I would think most people who are into gothic sounding metal would also fall in love with other goth music. Anyway, I don't think that's such a big issue that we have to go around the internet giving cold shoulder to people who want to get into this stuff.
"I would if I was wrong but after years of this, I know I’m not."
Ha. After decades of this, I know I'm not wrong, also. So, agree to disagree.
It really is fascinating to me how differently we think.
PS. I know I didn't touch upon every little thing you said, if I didn't touch upon something, I probably didn't have anything to say.
PPS. You completely ignored all about… THE QUESTION. Makes me sad.
Cool Person #1:
Nobody said they were, I even mentioned how bands incorporate other elements of genres into their music. But there’s a clear line between what Type O are here. That’s what we’re talking about, not the entire history of music.
The point in trying to make is that people keep making goth those things when they’re not as “goth” isn’t a personality type and alone, it isn’t aesthetic. They’re missing the core of the subculture and throwing all the values out the window because they want to be spooky.
And I just told you that it happened when I first got into goth, I literally googled it and got Cradle of Filth and that’s why I brought a CD.
And yes, you are wrong because genres aren’t opinions no matter how you want to spin it. Yeah, you probably don’t know what to say because you don’t have an argument.
And no, I do not want to hear what you have to ask. The earplugs are there for a reason.
Total Moron #6:
So, where is it stated that people universally agree that TON isn't goth? And what authority has decreed it into any sort of law? It's not clear.
Again, by what authority. A lot of people think it is, as do I. I accept that you and many others view it as just a "music fanclub", but that doesn't make it any sort of undisputable truth.
The music, sure... Except usually they still listen to it, go to clubs, etc... Don't they?
How? The core value of listening to music? If they're purporting that it's a personality type, aren't they more likely to add in core values?
And a lifelong trauma ensued? Or was it not that bad? Did you just get a crappy CD and sell it or give it away, or what? I've bought a couple of clunkers into my record collection over the years as well.
They also are opinions no matter how you want to spin it. Agree to disagree, or will you produce the authority that enforces the genre law?
Digressing here a bit, but even if a musician has no problem recognizing whether a guitar weeps DIUDIUDIU, or DIYDIYDIY, does not help me one bit. I have to categorize music for myself by traits that I myself can recognize. And it's still very hard to categorize a lot of music no matter which way you cut it, isn't it?
But that's all beside the point, anyway, since with genre, we mean metal, which is not in question considering TON. But we have not decided upon whether goth is really a "genre", or rather a flavor. If it's the latter, then TON is still goth.
What genre is goth, then, if it is indeed a genre. Post-punk? We chuck the name post-punk and replace it with goth, do we? Since post-punk is goth, isn't it? Then deathrock isn't goth... Because it's clearly not post-punk. What am I missing here?
Sad. I liked "chatting" with you. But I won't bug you about it any longer.
((Then all was silent))
***
The next time I logged on to look at the thread, my very good friend, Cool Person #3 had left a message, which said:
You're wrong in so many ways, take a moment and use some common sense, research how genres and subcultures work.
*
I tried to reply, but then I was like, “W-huh? Where’s the reply button?”
Turned out the thread had been (understandably) locked. This initially shocked me, as me and my bag of trademark crazy were ready to jump right back in the funzies, and I lamented for a few seconds.
Alas, I concluded, it was a good thing it ended. Obviously. I mean why. the. fuck. would. anyone...
Besides, if this would have gone on, there would also had to have been a second day blog of this mind numbing crap, and that wouldn’t have been good, either.
Sure looked like I was gonna go down in flames real quick there in the end, though. Too bad we didn’t get to witness that spectacle.
Anyway, in addition to that final nail in that particular coffin, I had a message from Peasant #3 saying they would like to hear… THE QUESTION.
I posed it to them. As of yet, there is no answer. I suppose there never will.
Reddit sucked. And even though I didn't even get the answer I went there looking for... Enough is enough. I’m out.
I can't really claim I didn't have any fun, though. As terrible as that place was, I did, I had lots of fun with the Cool People there, but it was sort of like stolen, masochistic fun. Not like the real great stuff that they save only for special occasions. Sigh.
Life is so empty.
Also, at least it was an excuse to blog, even if it was for a shitty entry. Even the making of this transcript enforced my view on what a shitty and unwieldy site Reddit is. Finding all the messages from its ugly and twisted message trees was a huge pain. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. I would instead recommend the beautiful, mainly black, sleek, streamlined forum of Gothic Net. A clear winner. Unless you have no standards and just want to “chat” with actual people, then, uh, yeah, by all means, choose the ugly, shitty site…
***
TrivialMorose picks up a cat-o-nine-tails from a rusty hinged old cabinet. Caked blood screams red murder on the barbed heads of the wicked looking whip.
“Well, time to cleanse my sins again…”
*Names of persons appearing in the transcript have been changed to prevent innocent people from being targeted by witch hunts. If someone is to burn for this, let it be the author.
***
Our grim tale this issue begins on one especially horrible night in the land of eternal darkness we all know and love. It was during a fierce storm of thunder and hale, high atop a rocky eyrie overlooking the madly raging sea beneath which unspeakable things slept. In a ruined castle as cold and silent as a catacomb…
Thunder rumbled across the dark, turmoily sky. Lightning filled the halls and momentarily illuminated the countless grinning death's heads covering the rambling walls of a macabre chamber where TrivialMorose was set to repose.
In that setting, TrivialMorose’s troubled and demented mind came up with… THE QUESTION!
No, he didn't just come up with it. No, indeed, THE QUESTION had been burning within his being for a full year already. Just on that particular night, the burning had become so intense, that TrivialMorose could no longer sleep, but kept tossing and turning restlessly in the confines of his inglorious coffin.
After he could take no more of the torture, TrivialMorose dragged himself out of the coffin and unto a computer, where his fingers danced the dead dance upon the keyboard like sluggish, withered plants.
Exactly on the moment of another flash of lightning, TrivialMorose pressed the send key, and a message was hurled through cyberspace to his very good friend, CeeCee. A message inviting her to hear, THE QUESTION.
CeeCee, of course, didn't reply. Because, let's face it, if you got a message from TrivialMorose, you wouldn't reply either.
So, THE QUESTION burning in TrivialMorose’s mind forced him to leave the comfort of the castle Gothic Net, and travel all the way to the despicable, cheery pit of torment known to mankind only as Reddit.
***
Upon my arrival I immediately vomited, as one must, when confronted for the first time with such a disgusting thing.
Reddit.
All dull shades of blue and grayish white, all fluffy things and neurotic Teletubbies. I shudder at the memory.
I walked up to a cheery, circus-like marketplace, and I announced thusly:
“I have come here to talk to you about, THE QUESTION. Would somebody care to hear more? Message me, or something, I have no idea how this site works.”
People happening to walk by were throwing thumbs at me seemingly at random, and I sayeth unto them thusly:
“I have... two upvotes... ? What does it even mean? How does it make sense to upvote this and not reply to it?”
Then, bravely, Peasant #1 stepped up to me and said,
“I would like to hear more about THE QUESTION, and I also have no idea how this site works.”
I thought,
Splendid, what a wonderful person, a noob, and possible Reddit hater, just like me!
Eagerly, I sent them THE QUESTION in a private message, but never heard back from them. I can only hope that it was because they were even more of a noob than I, or that their hatred of Reddit trumped over all else, but… I think we all know the real reason, don’t we, my soulless, thoughtless, heartless bot-friends?
Next I got a message from Peasant #2, asking to hear more.
When I posed them THE QUESTION, they replied by handing me a mysterious tome with a question mark on the cover.
Wide eyed I took it, thinking,
Surely, this tome must be the answer to THE QUESTION. But why, oh why, does it look so foreign? Can this really be what I have been after?
“Um. Uh. Sure, I'll think about it, I guess,” I stuttered my answer to the Peasant #2
For a moment I just stood. Staring down at the heavy book resting in my hand. Pondering the mysteries of it. Then, after a while, I realized the symbol on the cover was not a question mark at all! Nay, it was but a drooping, melting letter C. Thus turned out it was, in fact, not an answer to THE QUESTION at all. It was just something that looked similar, and thus had caused my confusion.
So, I put the book away into my satchel to wait for a rainy day, and continued my travels in that vomitous, strange place.
In no time at all, my dried flower filled nosepiece had let me to a much darker corner, with a couple skeletons lying on a marketplace where nobody frolicked or held merry.
This was the goth subreddit.
Possibly that is what they call it.
There I happened upon some dark, tortured soul lamenting the cruelty of our world.
“Oh, woe is me,” sayeth they. “Be I goth, or be I not?”
It was THAT kind of thread. I wanted to make the person feel welcome, so, I dove straight in, headfirst. Nothing wrong with that. But then I had to go and get myself entangled in the tangents. Shameful, I know. Inexcusable. Why I needed to go mucking in that shit once again, I cannot tell you. I imagine it's due to some kind of unprocessed frustration I secretly harbor. Something in the years of solitude that wrecked my soul and warped my brain, not to even mention how I've had to witness this scene die from around me…
***
THE ACTUAL TRANSCRIPT
*Warning, the following may contain material so boring that it will bring the reader to tears.
*To better understand the confused fugue state in which these events took place, imagine that these various conversations, which here are sorted into neat order, actually took place simultaneously, and I was rarely aware which of these persons were a different individual. And to ensure maximum memory loss, Reddit forced a ten minute wait between each post. So, I would write several comments at a time, then wait ten minutes to press send to one person, then ten more to send to the second person, and so on, until I would read and reply to the next batch of comments.
Total Moron #6:
If you wear lots of black and look a bit weird, you will be indeed considered a goth by many people. If you look like any Dick or Jane you find anywhere, and you listen to nothing but Siouxsie, Bauhaus and Sisters of Mercy in your darkened basement by your lonesome, nobody will consider you a goth. Facts.
((Then, after getting entangled in the funny repartee that ensues, twice, I felt for some reason like this post needed the following “clarifications”. Fuck me.))
EDIT: I suppose, to avoid confusion, I felt I should clarify that this is how it generally goes out there in the real world, but here in the internet we have the self-appointed scene-police to sort out everybody's goth membership cards. And that makes life so much better for all of us.
EDIT: Also, this is a bit of a simplification, 'innit? "wear lots of black and look a bit weird" could also apply to a priest, and hardly anybody would peg them for a goth. So, don't go getting yourself stuck on that, and you'll catch my meaning.
*
Cool Person #1:
You forgot the /s.
Total Moron #6:
What is the "/s"? I have no idea, but I am intrigued.
((And this question was never answered. So, if a bot with a highly sophisticated AI and lots of knowledge happens to read this post, please, do answer this mystery in the comments section.))
*
Cool Person #2:
Appeal to popularity fallacy. Goth is a music based subculture determined by it's over forty year history. If you looked at some of the way members od goth bands dressed, you wouldn't think they were goth. Also by your logic people can claim I'm emo cause of all the black and look weird.
Total Moron #6:
Indeed they can call you an emo. Isn't that terrible?
Cool Person #2:
It's not accurate! I don't have an interest in emo music or participate in emo communities. I participate in goth communities and listen to goth music. Jesus Christ this is the worst argument I've fucking seen.
Total Moron #6:
And still they called you an emo. Really stung, didn't it? How can life go on after this?
Cool Person #2:
You do realize I was using an example right? Lol.
Total Moron #6:
Yes, indeed, and in that example they still called you an emo, and there was nothing you could do about it. How dare they? What audacious violation of your sovereign being!
END OF MY ORIGINAL POST
***
((Then, right after posting my original reply, I noticed in this same thread a side discussion which went possibly something like this… Just an approximation.))
Cool Person #4: Type O Negative were goth.
Cool Person #5 or #2: Type O Negative was not goth.
Cool Person #4 or #6: Type O Negative were goth.
((Approximation ends because I see something that piques my fancy.))
Cool Person #2:
Not an opinion, they weren’t goth.
Total Moron #6:
There is nothing but opinions on what is or isn't goth. Goth was never perfectly defined unto a stone tablet by a dark god anywhere.
Cool Person #2:
No, that's not how it works... Subcultures start out cause a certain amount of people have some things in common (music, clubs, DIY). People didn't have to conform cause they enjoyed most of what the subculture entailed. Otherwise, after hanging out with them for awhile, they started to develop interests that others in the group were interested in.
Total Moron #6:
((This here is one instance where I clearly did not know what line of conversation was going on, as I quote my own post which was the reply to some other Cool Person.))
"Subcultures start out cause a certain amount of people have some things in common (music, clubs, DIY)" EQUALS "people who made that music had some inner qualities which shaped their music and made them dress the way they did,"
"People didn't have to conform cause they enjoyed most of what the subculture entailed." EQUALS "just being yourself and happening to be a goth"
I don't see where we said anything opposing one another?
((And then in whisper, I added:)) Hey, by the way, you are interesting right now. So, I would like to ask you… THE QUESTION.
((And a resounding silence was all that followed from this Cool Person.))
*
Cool Person #1:
QUOTE:There is nothing but opinions on what is or isn't goth. Goth was never perfectly defined unto a stone tablet by a dark god anywhere.
Not exactly. 41 years of the subculture and its inspirations and influences can be traced and have been documented. Surely from this you can see what would be typically considered goth and the genres characteristics. It’s no more an opinion than any other subculture.
Total Moron #6:
Quote:
"It’s no more an opinion than any other subculture."
Quote:
"its inspirations and influences can be traced"
In actuality, all people who made that music had some inner qualities which shaped their music and made them dress the way they did, these inner qualities are that which links those who would be called "goth". Indeed, these qualities are what makes us look and act like we do!
Subculture comes from people. People do not conform to create a subculture. If you conform to what goth is, instead of just being yourself and happening to be a goth, then you are doing yourself a disservice.
Cool Person #1:
Back to the original point: Type O Negative are a metal band and it’s not an opinion they’re not goth. You don’t get to decide the genre they are and neither do we, it’s about how much you know about music characteristics.
Total Moron #6:
((Here I’ll just note that they said something about genre, and I answered whether they belong in the “subculture”. This helped muddy the already murky waters, I think.))
The people in the subculture DO get to decide what music belongs in the subculture. The music does not get to dictate what people are allowed in the subculture.
There is no authority in existence that universally dictates what is or isn't gothic. When a large enough amount of us think something is gothic, then, for a large amount of us, it is indeed gothic. Then it will be played in our clubs, and the performers will be invited to our events.
People made music, people trump music.
Cool Person #3:
Exactly. And we goths decided long ago that we dont consider anything gothic, including metal bands like Type O as goth.
The fact that mixed events exists doesnt make goth, metal, punk, aggrotech and all other subcultures and genres to be the same.
Total Moron #6:
Some of us did, some of us didn't. And that's all cool. Ours isn't exactly a gated community. The scene-police patrol only the internet, the clubs, and life outside the box generally, have a much more lax attitude.
Cool Person #3:
Goth is a gated community to a degree. Always has been.
We've allowed anyone that seems nice and whom share some of our views, mainly left oreinted. But we've never called anyone whom we talk to as goths, even if we've said they are cool to hang with us.
Total Moron #6:
Eh, funny this "we" you talk about. It doesn't have any bearing, AT ALL, who you call, or don't call, goth.
There never was an organization called goth which handed out memberships. You didn't have a membership. This organization never gave you a badge, a gun and a honored position as the scene-police.
Maybe you had your own clique that did that (a joke, I hope), but it was not the whole of goth.
On the surface, goth is just a bunch of people called goth for convenience's sake. It's not gated at all.
Cool Person #3:
Except that it's a subculture with "criteria" for being a part of it and recognized by other goths.
Total Moron #6:
Yes, and that "criteria" (I love that you put it in quotes, shows that you get it) is decided upon by us within the subculture, and it will shift together with us. We all keep growing, and our ranks are ever changing.
((Then I whispered to them:)) But, hey, I've loved "chatting" with you. Answer me… THE QUESTION!
((And this Cool Person said they did not know the answer.))
Cool Person #3:
((This message took me by surprise when I was collecting this shit here. I apparently didn’t notice this one, or it was posted during during my absence. All messages were merely designated as being one day old, so it was impossible to tell.))
Exactly, we decide. And since the larger crowd of goths doesnt count metal as goth, makes metal not goth, etc.
It was a bit different back in the 80's where people didnt have the same access to info as we have now.
*
Cool Person #1:
Music thats played in a goth club doesn’t mean the band is goth. They played a variety, at least back in the day, since the genre was new; they often combined the Rivethead scene with goth.
There is nothing you can tell me to make me think Type O is goth, for the last time they’re metal.
Total Moron #6:
Indeed they do play a variety, but not everything played at clubs is considered goth by anybody, some are...
And nothing really means a band is goth, except maybe if they sound like a carbon copy of Siouxsie and the Banshees, who weren't goth by their own standards...
Goth isn't usually considered a type of music like metal is. They aren't mutually exclusive. Are even types of music, though? Exclusive of each other, I mean... Most likely not...
Cool Person #1:
Type O Negative isn’t goth.
Total Moron #6:
Cool if you think so. But why should everybody follow your standard? Aside the obvious, not many of us generally seem to agree what is goth.
Cool Person #1:
Actually the majority of us agree that metal isn't goth.
It's rather a minority that thinks that metal = goth etc.
Total Moron #6:
Never said majority. You don't need a majority for many enough to have influence. This isn't a democracy.
Cool Person #1:
Because it’s not an opinion or a standard, they’re a metal band. That is their genre. It’s like arguing whether over Eminem is hip hop.
Goth has certain characteristics; there’s a general pattern you can identify within the sound which generally decides.
This is LITERALLY copied and pasted from a music theorist:
Gothic metal is not goth, just metal. The “gothic” in the name is referring to gothic in the literary sense and isn’t related to goth music.
Why metal can’t be goth:
Quote:
Metal and goth have very conflicting guitar stylings and typically tempo as well. Goth is a lot more ethereal than metal in both tempo and effects. The canned jangle of the goth guitar can’t really exist simultaneously with the also very effects-heavy metal guitar stylings. So, the most you could do within the same song is switch back and forth between the two. However, by doing so, the music would no longer be either goth or metal and become something more experimental and piecemeal. The closest example of this I can think of off the top of my head is “Neon Witch” by Neon Tzigane. It’s not quite goth or metal but definitely uses elements taken from both at different places in the song.
Total Moron #6:
As clear as day. For a musician. Not for most people, I suspect.
Also, I don't know what "music theorist" is, but please, do tell what authority it has over this matter? I can't research it myself right now.
PS. I can't recognize which bands are metal, either. Tone deaf etc.
Cool Person #1:
It really is. I don’t know why you’re rejecting it so hard. You can still be goth and listen to Type O, I just don’t need them to fit my own bubble of opinion for them to be valid. Otherwise, my Last.fm wouldn’t look the way it does.
Literally someone who does music theory, it’s a field of study. I’d take that over someone on the Internet who thinks genres are opinions.
Total Moron #6:
Quote:
"I don’t know why you’re rejecting it so hard. You can still be goth and listen to Type O, I just don’t need them to fit my own bubble of opinion for them to be valid."
Quote:
"Literally someone who does music theory, it’s a field of study. I’d take that over someone on the Internet who thinks genres are opinions."
EDIT: Noticed myself calling goth "just" a flavor there. I definitely don't mean to say it's anything lesser, hells no, flavor always trumps type for me!
Cool Person #1:
“Letting” bands be genres they’re not adds to misinformation and mislabelling; the people who insist that Type O are metal and not goth are stopping others from finding bands in the actual goth genre. It’s practically gatekeeping them from their own scene.
This is why people find Slipknot, Evanescence, Nightwish, Manson, Cradle of Filth (like I found when when I first got into goth, bought a CD and all and was faced with extreme/symphonic/black metal) and insert any symphonic/black/death/by metal band here instead of actual goth bands when they’re searching for goth. It should come up as anything from goth to ethereal wave - even coldwave. This is why grey rock and afterpunk aren’t known, because everyone’s obsessing over bands that are goth friendly instead of actually part of the genre.
If you’re going to let a metal band be goth, there isn’t any end. Where do you draw the line? Why not just accept them as metal, but that they’re also played in goth clubs and get over it? I don’t get your persistence. If you genuinely believed this was an opinion, you’d have let this go already. But it isn’t so that’s why I haven’t; you don’t seem to understand this basic concept. It’s not at all difficult to grasp that some things just aren’t an opinion and calling it one still doesn’t make it one. You’re just wrong.
If it’s so easy for you to label them as metal despite they’re not, I can get away with calling them disco but it’s just my opinion, right?
Total Moron #6:
Ah, now I see your point. I do indeed. And I feel it. I've sometimes found some rather jarring things trying to find goth music as well. I don't know what should be done about that. I do think, putting up exclusions zones around free words isn't the answer, though.
Quote:
"If you’re going to let a metal band be goth, there isn’t any end."
You can also call whatever you want disco, I do not want to tell anyone what they can think, except I want to ask them for the same courtesy towards others. If they don't want to give that, then fine, agree to disagree, or whatever.
Anyway, you've let me see through your eyes, let me in turn try to show you through mine. What ills me here, is not really the question of musical genres, it is rather that every time some beautiful pudding goth comes on a forum with their questions, some internet creep-o shoots them down with their self-entitled elitist crap. And that does nothing but push everybody away. We should be welcoming more people into our very thin ranks, not trying to push them away. I feel shit like this is killing MY scene.
My beautiful, darling scene...
In the hands of murderers...
And this is indeed only an internet problem. We aren't like this in the real world. But those young ones who get shot down in the internet while they are still nothing but larvae, well, they never grow up to be butterflies. Sad, sad, sad. Very depressing.
By the way, I tried to whisper this into your ear, but you seem to be wearing earplugs or something, so, I’ll just have to say it out loud. Would you like to hear… THE QUESTION?
Cool Person #1:
I’m not going to call bands genres they’re not, and I will correct someone if they’re wrong. And it doesn’t necessarily mean I’m going to do it in an “elitist” way. My general advice for anyone is to research and research, genres are made up of certain elements which make them sound the way they are. All genres have them, but that doesn’t mean to say bands can’t corporate elements of other genres into their own but you can usually tell.
I’m more concerned about the over sexualisation of goth girls and the BTGG stereotype, how goth is now a “personality”, just an “aesthetic”, being boiled down to a colour, supposedly “5 bands from the 80s”, basically whatever anyone wants it to be and how now you can be goth by having a black cat named Poe and wearing black.
I’m not worried about imaginary exclusion zones around “free words” when those words have definitions, and I’m not telling anyone how to think. I’m literally identifying a band into its correct genre so you can then go and find more or similar bands just like that. If you call Type O “goth” then search the term, looking for more bands like that then you’re going to be disappointed when you find Bauhaus and not Moonspell.
Additionally, there’s people out there who are 100% convinced that they do not like goth music because of what the media has decided and mislabelled bands as. If people just labelled bands correctly, we wouldn’t have this issue.
It’s not difficult to get it right. And it’s not a bad thing to admit you’re wrong. I would if I was wrong but after years of this, I know I’m not.
Total Moron #6:
I don't think the genres are as rigidly defined as you think they are. If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Well, let's go back a bit. I agree that you may be right that they are actually defined just that rigidly somewhere in the annails of music theorists, I don't know anything about that, but they are not that rigidly defined in the minds of rabble.
"goth is now a “personality”, just an “aesthetic”"
I see your point, but personally happen to care more about peoples personalities and aesthetics than about what they listen to when they're home alone. So this usage of the word suits me better. All the people I care about listen to what is playing at the club when they are at the club, anyway.
I do sympathize with you some, regardless.
"I’m not worried about imaginary exclusion zones around “free words” when those words have definitions"
I am! I seriously do believe that too rigid definitions stagnate languages and can even cause real psychological harm to people! Ha. just goes to show how differently we can think!
"disappointed when you find Bauhaus and not Moonspell."
I don't see that happening. I suppose it must happen to some, then, but I would think most people who are into gothic sounding metal would also fall in love with other goth music. Anyway, I don't think that's such a big issue that we have to go around the internet giving cold shoulder to people who want to get into this stuff.
"I would if I was wrong but after years of this, I know I’m not."
Ha. After decades of this, I know I'm not wrong, also. So, agree to disagree.
It really is fascinating to me how differently we think.
PS. I know I didn't touch upon every little thing you said, if I didn't touch upon something, I probably didn't have anything to say.
PPS. You completely ignored all about… THE QUESTION. Makes me sad.
Cool Person #1:
Nobody said they were, I even mentioned how bands incorporate other elements of genres into their music. But there’s a clear line between what Type O are here. That’s what we’re talking about, not the entire history of music.
The point in trying to make is that people keep making goth those things when they’re not as “goth” isn’t a personality type and alone, it isn’t aesthetic. They’re missing the core of the subculture and throwing all the values out the window because they want to be spooky.
And I just told you that it happened when I first got into goth, I literally googled it and got Cradle of Filth and that’s why I brought a CD.
And yes, you are wrong because genres aren’t opinions no matter how you want to spin it. Yeah, you probably don’t know what to say because you don’t have an argument.
And no, I do not want to hear what you have to ask. The earplugs are there for a reason.
Total Moron #6:
Quote:
"But there’s a clear line between what Type O are here."
Quote:
"“goth” isn’t a personality type."
Quote:
"They’re missing the core of the subculture"
Quote:
"and throwing all the values out the window"
Quote:
"And I just told you that it happened when I first got into goth, I literally googled it and got Cradle of Filth and that’s why I brought a CD. "
Quote:
"you are wrong because genres aren’t opinions no matter how you want to spin it."
Digressing here a bit, but even if a musician has no problem recognizing whether a guitar weeps DIUDIUDIU, or DIYDIYDIY, does not help me one bit. I have to categorize music for myself by traits that I myself can recognize. And it's still very hard to categorize a lot of music no matter which way you cut it, isn't it?
But that's all beside the point, anyway, since with genre, we mean metal, which is not in question considering TON. But we have not decided upon whether goth is really a "genre", or rather a flavor. If it's the latter, then TON is still goth.
What genre is goth, then, if it is indeed a genre. Post-punk? We chuck the name post-punk and replace it with goth, do we? Since post-punk is goth, isn't it? Then deathrock isn't goth... Because it's clearly not post-punk. What am I missing here?
Quote:
"And no, I do not want to hear what you have to ask."
((Then all was silent))
***
The next time I logged on to look at the thread, my very good friend, Cool Person #3 had left a message, which said:
You're wrong in so many ways, take a moment and use some common sense, research how genres and subcultures work.
*
I tried to reply, but then I was like, “W-huh? Where’s the reply button?”
Turned out the thread had been (understandably) locked. This initially shocked me, as me and my bag of trademark crazy were ready to jump right back in the funzies, and I lamented for a few seconds.
Alas, I concluded, it was a good thing it ended. Obviously. I mean why. the. fuck. would. anyone...
Besides, if this would have gone on, there would also had to have been a second day blog of this mind numbing crap, and that wouldn’t have been good, either.
Sure looked like I was gonna go down in flames real quick there in the end, though. Too bad we didn’t get to witness that spectacle.
Anyway, in addition to that final nail in that particular coffin, I had a message from Peasant #3 saying they would like to hear… THE QUESTION.
I posed it to them. As of yet, there is no answer. I suppose there never will.
Reddit sucked. And even though I didn't even get the answer I went there looking for... Enough is enough. I’m out.
I can't really claim I didn't have any fun, though. As terrible as that place was, I did, I had lots of fun with the Cool People there, but it was sort of like stolen, masochistic fun. Not like the real great stuff that they save only for special occasions. Sigh.
Life is so empty.
Also, at least it was an excuse to blog, even if it was for a shitty entry. Even the making of this transcript enforced my view on what a shitty and unwieldy site Reddit is. Finding all the messages from its ugly and twisted message trees was a huge pain. I wouldn’t recommend it to anyone. I would instead recommend the beautiful, mainly black, sleek, streamlined forum of Gothic Net. A clear winner. Unless you have no standards and just want to “chat” with actual people, then, uh, yeah, by all means, choose the ugly, shitty site…
***
TrivialMorose picks up a cat-o-nine-tails from a rusty hinged old cabinet. Caked blood screams red murder on the barbed heads of the wicked looking whip.
“Well, time to cleanse my sins again…”
*Names of persons appearing in the transcript have been changed to prevent innocent people from being targeted by witch hunts. If someone is to burn for this, let it be the author.
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