"Fucked up" is too vague to be a medical diagnosis. Perfectly healthy people can do "fucked up" things. What we know of mass and serial killers is that often, they are not insane. They know fully well what they are doing and that it is wrong. Some killers might have schizophrenia or what have you and through their delusions and confusions about reality harm themselves or others (although more likely that not, they won't), but mental illness does not automatically leads to violence, whether it is treated or not.
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And that's the biggest lesson we should all learn about violence.
It is its own entity with several facets of its agency. For example; if this had happened to WBC or Fox news or the Cato institute instead of a bunch of school children; I wouldn't just no bat an eye, I'd fucking drink to it and celebrate it. |
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"I still have to get ready to see how much of the neighborhood I can burn down and do what I do best: killing people." - mentally disturbed individual. Hey look another fucked up person doing fucked up things. |
What's your point?
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But I guess murdering his grandmother with a hammer 30 something years ago and then trying to destroy everything around him, that's not a good enough indication of mental illness for gothic dot net. |
Jon. You're just aching for an easy solution; aren't you.
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Actually, doing the things that he did *isn't* indicative of mental illness. That's the point.
There is no evidence that this person was mentally ill. Did you know that mental illness is diagnosed by looking for clusters of symptoms that occur within a specific time, that are outside of the cultural norm for that person, and that have no physical explanation to them. For instance (and this is a really really oversimplified example), someone who hears voices twice a year isn't classed as mentally ill, someone who hears voices but is part of an Australian Aboriginal culture where visitations from deceased relatives is seen as a norm isn't classed as mentally ill, someone who hears voices because they have a tumour pressing on their auditory nerve isn't mentally ill... You have no evidence to back up the idea that these people suffered from mental illness. Also, do you realise that just because someone has a mental illness that illness doesn't dictate ALL the things that they do. So, in the same way that mental illness might not be the reason that they had a bath instead of a shower on Tuesday morning, mental illness might not be the reason that they parked in a No Parking zone on Wednesday day afternoon, mental illness might not be the reason that they kicked their neighbours dog on Friday night, and mental illness might not be the reason that they shot a bunch of people on Sunday morning. Again - CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUATE TO CAUSALITY. |
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Sociopathy isn't a mental illness. Sociopathy isn't a case of yes/no - it is measured on a spectrum and EVERYONE scores on the spectrum somewhere.. this includes you. Most people who score high on a sociopathic spectrum DO NOT commit acts of outright physical violence against others. Most people who do commit acts of outright physical violence against others DO NOT score unusually high on sociopathy markers. Most criminal sociopaths commit "white collar" crimes because it's about winning the game, not about hurting people. |
You know he just wants to be right, don't you? You can tell he doesn't have an argument anymore when he starts to respond with one or two sentences that orient on the language of something you say, rather then you point you are trying to express.
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Yes, but I can only argue back because I can't shoot him..
Oh, wait... |
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Just because you don't understand someone's motivation, doesn't mean they're mentally ill. It just means you don't know what's in their head.
Here are a couple articles and bits of information that may help. http://depts.washington.edu/mhreport/facts_violence.php And http://psychcentral.com/archives/violence.htm Quote:
I wouldn't worry so much about this conversation if the idea itself did not predispose people to mistreat those who've suffered from mental illness. It wasn't that far in our past that those who did, also suffered deplorable conditions, "treatment" that was more akin to torture as well as eugenics laws that called for their mandatory sterilization as well as the sterilization of their siblings. The idea that mental illness and violence are inextricably related are part of a harmful, untrue, ableist stereotype. Perpetuating that stereotype is dishonest, irresponsible and just plain wrong. |
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Murdered grandmother with hammer. Dead grandma by hammer is a pretty clear indication he was a sick man. This has to be trolling. Quote:
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Correlation does not equal causality does not mean every correlation is spurious! If I was saying that because the killer had a house that he set on fire, then it was home ownership that caused these murders it would be a ridiculous correlation/causation argument flaw. You're asking me to somehow ignore that a person's psychological makeup influences their behaviors. The man was crazy, he did a crazy thing. Can anything be done about it? Maybe yes, maybe no, but this hand-wringing about whether or not he was mentally ill / psychologically damaged / fucked in the head is beyond the pale. |
This article says it more articulately than I've been able to.
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So I have a question, do you think every white colonist, every Nazi, every slave owner ever did the horrible things they did because they were mentally ill? Quote:
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I get it, you don't understand psychology at all, even after Ape Descendant landed down some pretty good evidence that you're absolutely wrong. Eric Harris was not mentally ill or insane, his profilers acknowledged that. He was probably a sociopath, but sociopathy isn't a mental illness. It has never been in the DSM, its used primarily in the justice system. There isn't any real treatment either, maybe you can wait it out and they'll grow up to have a different personality but otherwise, there's nothing to make anyone stop being a sociopath. No drugs for it, and therapy does more harm than good. Splenger might probably be a sociopath, and that probably shaped his personality and world view, but it does not automatically mean he's violent BECAUSE he's a sociopath, and it does not mean he is mentally ill. |
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"Might probably be a sociopath" - haha, yeah, like there's a realistic scenario where he wasn't. Maybe it was actually a very sophisticated ruse in order to fool people into believing a character he was playing. He was actually a gentle, caring soul (when not holding a hammer). |
So, Jonathan, do you even have a point you're trying to get to aside from "people who do fucked up shit are mentally ill"? What is the purpose of all this clumsy flailing and ignoring data that shows that violence shows a stronger correlation with those who are male and those who abuse alcohol than those who only have diagnosed mental illnesses?
What are you trying to prove? What sort of action are you proposing? |
It makes him feel safer to think that violence is perpetrated by the mentally ill.
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Terrible things were encouraged, permissable, and normal during different times in history. In ancient Rome, it would be totally normal and expected for older men to **** little boys and slaves. It was totally acceptable and normal for white men to **** their slaves not too long ago. Did every single white man who did such things mentally ill, and did so because they were mentally ill? Were all our ancestors who colonized North America mentally ill? Are entire nations mentally ill when they go to war with their neighbour? When lynching was normal, did the whole town become mentally ill? Quote:
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Yes.. but that involves thought.
I'm increasingly becoming convince with the theory that someone put forward (I think it may have been ApeDescendant?) that a lot of the issues stem from a sense of privilege and the idea that one can simply play out their own entitlement upon the bodies of those around them. Which intrigues me, because in a way this is exactly what Jonathan is doing here.. |
But... but look at all the science we brought. Its a veritable science picnic!!
I understand the thinking behind his stance, its the same sort of thinking that had me making similar assertions a few months ago. Between some serious reading on the topic and an epiphany due to an awesome documentary about horror flicks (Nightmares in Red, White and Blue) there was this section on anti-heroes who wrought bloody vengeance or pushed their own unique morality on the world through violent slaughter. That shit isn't about mental illness, that shit is people feeling like it is their right to hurt others if they don't follow whatever warped code has been set for them. Dragging people with MI into this debate only serves to set us all back as it isn't the main problem. All it does is re-enforce the stigma on an already marginalized group of people, and the problem only becomes more alarming when we have powerful organizations saying shit like this: (emphasis is mine) Quote:
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So, if he didn't feel that it was his RIGHT to be listened to, and that we should be shutting the fuck up and making space for him to express HIS ideas (no matter how fallacious those ideas are), he would probably look at the science, look at the ideas that have been brought into this thread, and admit that he's wrong. But.. he's entitled to be right!! |
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