Sounds nice. Punk basics hold up better than goth basics, I think. Probably because it's not supposed to be very sophisticated.

'Round here 'the hot topic look' refers to newbgoths in cookie cutter commercial alt-wear though, which is hardly the standard for comparison; none of it is very inspired, and it's dreadfully ironic to purchase your counterculture image from middle-aged store owners with the money you made taking on an afterschool job.

I can believe that you get ogled as it is. A guy with good bone structure doesn't need to do much else to get attention (and laid), so if that's your only objective, you're fine. Me, I dress up because I love it, and because it matters in who you get attention from - I like certain things in people, so I should offer the same. Subverting gender stereotypes and bothering xenophobes are fringe benefits.


Coming from that guy, yeah. It must be... reverse irony, or something. =P

And of course it isn't. Substance is no substitute for ornamentation either, though. I wouldn't settle for just one of the two.

Oh, so you're just trolling IRL then?

No, see...you aren't getting it. Ornamentation is what's practiced by boring people to distract themselves and others from the fact that they are massively fucking boring. Whether it's Gold chains and a v-neck shirt, or hoop earrings a gold-trimmed blouse and a tan or even the Gay Anime Pirate look if you have enough time to meticulously sculpt your look to that degree, you've got too much time on your hands.

Kontan used to do the same thing. Homeboy would spend hours DIY-ing various looks so he could go out and pose and "subvert gender stereotypes". You know why he did it? Because he was bored. Because he lived in Kentucky and didn't do anything. It was his one creative outlet in a sea of blandness. Guy used to pick his jobs based on which places would let him wear his deathhawk and whatnot; pop that things up, slide on his fishnets and go to Olive Garden.

Then he grew the fuck up, moved to New York, and started actually producing real art. Guess what flew right out the window as soon as he found more interesting things to do with his time? Yeah...

Look, honestly I don't want to berate you: You're a cool enough dude, and I commend your DIY skills. You were able to make a really cool costume, but at the end of the day, even after all that effort, it's still a costume: you still look like Hot topic vomited on Jack Sparrow.

You know what? It's cool, do it, have your fun. We all went through that phase, and it's fun dressing up. Just don't let looking awesome distract you from actually being awesome; and for the love of God, when it's time to let it go, let it go. You don't want to be in your 30's or 40's and still looking like that, that's when it starts to become sad: When you realize you're a 44 year old dude in a kilt and goggles, rocking a waxed moustache and impressing 19 year old girls with your skills with a riding crop.

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs568...._6067346_n.jpg

Me talking about North to Maine @ Under St. Mark's Theatre.

Very handsome Des.

And Kontan, "Let it grow...let it grow... let it blossom, let it flow. In the sun, the rain, the snow, hair is lovely, ,let it grow."


Had to do it.

Like I said, fringe benefit.


Thanks! But you sound like a parent, you know that? Not my parents, but very much a parent.

I don't think there's such a thing as 'real art', in contrast to any other creative field. Boring normal people paint paintings and make music too, or whatever it is Kontan is doing now. But they make boring music - just as they dress boring - and this marks neither all music nor all fashion* as the exclusive field of the tedious.

I'm fine with modes of expression evolving. I don't know what I'll be doing X years from now. But I definitely don't buy that they're hierarchically sorted by awesomeness or 'realness', and that it's all a big linear sequence to an end product that necessarily looks like you guys. Punks growing out of the visual aspect is just culture; a generational suggestion you are passing on as we speak. =)


So anyway, what do you guys do that makes you feel so awesome? I'm curious now.



*I hate this word. Clothes, style, the like. You get the point.

Raza, I like your style. But the fact is that it just becomes a drag to have to fix yourself up for that long every morning. I barely feel like even brushing my hair on some days. I guess you could call it laziness for the most part. But it's nice to just look plain and not have people looking at you constantly also it allows your face to breath. I don't think you should ever change your style...just tone it down once in a while. But then again you never stated whether you dress that way all the time or not.

That's because I'm an adult.

Seems like a pretty bigoted attitude to me.

Well, Kontan can answer for himself, but feel free to peruse my website *points at the sig below* if you want to see what I'm up to.

But as a basic overview, I worked as a professional actor for 2 straight years, then thru-hiked the entirety of the Appalachian Trail and moved to NYC where I work as an underground poet/playwright.

Currently I live in Sugar Hill and do performance art in the East Village, my play Snow White Zombie is running off-broadway, and I write sketches for God Tastes Like Chicken.

I dress this way all the time, though the amount of effort I put in varies day by day of course. At a minimum it's those pants, a simple raggedy black sleeveless and eyeliner, with as many accessories as I feel like putting on.

Honestly though, a modified and decorated shirt, jacket or pair of paints takes the same amount of work to put on as a plain variant of the same. At this point I would have to spend significantly more work than usual to go a day without getting stared or yelled at.

The 'all roads lead to rome' attitude comes standard with adulthood, then.

Then I suspect that you misunderstood me. o.0


Sounds like fun! I still don't see how that's 'better' or 'further evolved' art that clothing design/costumes, photography, party deco and the like, though. I just prefer visual media; this is a matter of taste, not maturity.

I may have. I'm saying that people aren't boring - they're fascinating, even folk who are into stuff you aren't.

You are partially correct here, when it comes to art the medium/media doesn't matter.

Here's the deal though: Art is about communication, what are you communicating with your fashion? What are you saying that is different from all the other assholes out there who look just like you? I can go to hot topic right now, drop a couple of c-notes and get pretty much the exact same look you've got on.

So how is what you're doing with your clothes relevant to the culture? What does this say about your experience specifically?

Ah, alright. The "Ornamentation is what's practiced by boring people to distract themselves and others from the fact that they are massively fucking boring." bit had me confused on that.

I can see both points; it shouldn't be a dealbreaker perspective. I wasn't calling Kontan boring at least, merely saying that whatever arts he practices are undoubtedly also indulged by boring people somewhere, just like mine.

Perhaps there lies the big difference. For me, art is about beauty; aesthetic. Or maybe that's not 'art', but in that case you can have the word and keep it.

Aesthetic. The sensation of rightness and enjoyability between perceivable elements. This is fairly all-encompassing; a message, for example, while not paramount to beauty can contribute to it. The thought behind a symbol, the actions of the person wearing a piece of clothing, the frame of a picture - the value (or at least, a value) of all these can be reduced to aesthetic as much as color, shape and sound.

I'm not looking to communicate much. You could deduce some things about my personality from my appearance, sure, since there's a lot of thought behind parts of it - but most people are likely to interpret those wrong or not at all, and I don't concern myself with that. Communication fails if the perceiving party isn't willing or able to relate; this creates a dependency that I'm not fond of. Beauty, in contrast, relies only on my perception of the world to realize its value; if others share even part of it then they make for enjoyable company, but that isn't (although it can also contribute to) the main objective.

Raza... you're new here. I don't think you really know who you're talking to. Look, man, I've done what you've done. In fact, I've done it better. When I was doing DIY like a madman, it didn't look like it came from Xtra-X or Tripp NYC. It actually LOOKED original.

I've done the whole artistic modeling thing both alternative and conventional. I've done promotions for the Louisville Goth scene from modeling, writing in zines, flyering, and setting up venues. I've worked with Club Vampire setting up their venue for My Life With The Thrill Kill Kult. I've been a go-go dancer. I've been a member of the Louisville Noise collective. I've been an actor, make up artist, and costume designer for the Baxter Avenue Morgue haunted house and THAT was a paid gig. On top of all that, I was and still am a bootleg hairstylist. And you want to give ME fashion advice? Fuck you, clown.

Should I expand? Should I go into my teen years where I was working in the local community theater designing props, lights, sounds, and choreographing FUCKING jaw dropping fight scenes and also doing lead roles as well as supporting ones?

Or how about now? How about now, as I am a computer graphic painter/designer, DIY clothing enthusiast, fight choreographer, make up artist, actor, and combat director? I'm also making my debut in New York City in the Estrogenius Festival. An organization that's actually saying something RELEVANT by celebrating female artists and voices.

The nerve of you, Raza. To think... you have the audacity to suggest that I should take fashion advice off of you. YOU LOOK LIKE A FUCKING JACK SPARROW RIP OFF THAT HOT TOPIC VOMITED ON.

Look... GOOD for you. You're a gorgeous boy with some damn fine DIY skills. I'll give you that. But for fuck's sake man... drop the silly teenaged halloween shit and do something that's actually relevant.

As for your feelings on normal people... Mother FUCK you. Bigot.

Wow, Kotan, you're awfully good looking, there.

He has a beautiful face.

Wow Kontan, I'm still feeling the heat from that post.

Let's not go overboard on the kid. He didn't know any better.

Anyway Raza, on to your post:

I can see why you would. Allow me to elaborate:

I mean people in general. Those I consider boring are fascinating in their own right, just not for the reasons they think they are, and then there are really impressive people. You compare the average (or even exceptional) deathrocker to someone like my friend John Murdock, who is a comedian, actor, outspoken atheist, and erotic balloon man -they're going to pale, no matter what they, or he, happen to be wearing at the time. Guy could come out in a tweed Jacket, a suit, a t-shirt or a paper bag and he'd still be awesome.


You were implying that he needs "style" and that because he didn't have a mohawk or face makeup he wasn't 'extraordinary'.

That's a pretty dumb thing to say.

Aesthetics are a part of creating a successful piece of art, but there's alot more to it than that. See below:

Communication never "fails", like it or not no matter your intention, you're always going to communicate something. Maybe not what you intended but everything you do, wear, and say is going to communicate something to someone else. What you intended to communicate with your outfit is: "Beautiful, cool, artistic, free-thinker, fan of Goth and Deathrock" and I got "Kid who's trying too hard (but at least he's trying)".

If your only goal is to dress in a manner which you find aesthetically pleasing, then you've succeeded. I'd consider it more than a little self-indulgent and frankly rather shallow, and a waste of potential, but hey 'to each their own'. The problem with this, is that if pleasing your own sense of aesthetics and beauty is that you're basically no different than someone who cleaves to Abercrombie and Fitch, or the gap, or wears band t-shirts, your tastes just lie in a different area.

However, I suspect this is not your only goal. I think you're both smarter and have more substance than that. I think you're currently jumping to "beauty" as your goal because you're being questioned and that's the classic fallback.

"I just dress this way because I like it, you're the one with the problem."

That sort of rot. It's Goth 101's basic retort.

Anyway, I don't want to hate on you too hard. I'm prodding you because you said a stupid thing to Kontan, and I think you'll be a better person, if you can get past the more self-indulgent aspects of your fashion and actually do or say something worth saying with it.

Maybe you'll design some costumes for a show sometime, maybe you'll get a job working for Tripp.

Sadly, I doubt this guy has the grapes to get an actual job working for Tripp. It's not like he's doing anything they don't already have figured out.

Wow, Brent. You're being very pleasant about this one.

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._5625194_n.jpg

Yesterday while taking a walk with a friend.. He shot me =P

Gah, hey ya know. I try. :)

No worries, this is fun. I'm actually being challenged, culturally and intellectually. You guys are entitled to your egos and your jabs; I know I do the same.


Sounds great; I don't appreciate all these outlets equally, but I can see that this makes them no less worthy, and I do love multi-talented people.


I was saying his appearance wasn't extraordinary. I wouldn't pretend to comment on anything else based on a picture.


Agreed. Still though, I don't get much out of people interpreting what I do. I have no stake in it.

I don't object to any of those things. My aestheticism is an approach to hedonism, and many of the best pleasures in life are fairly intuitive; no need to distantiate myself from people that find them by accident.

Where I am different is in that I go about it methodically, structuring my whole life around it. I can't say for sure that this allows me to get more out of it than they do, but I do know I'm getting more out of it than I used to when I took their approach - and that it's quite exciting, period.

Self-indulgent? Yes, incredibly and deliberately so. 'Shallow' isn't a term I think in, I'll leave that call to you.

I see that, but by chance it's the one textbook reason that holds up, and I am really quite decided on it. I do of course have other goals, these can mostly be reduced to the pursuit of beauty - and again, I have to stress how incredibly broad and fundamental that is to the experience of life in general, at least in my understanding of it.

Dude... you think those assholes that wear American Apparel aren't methodical about it? Do you KNOW why people are so methodical about what they wear? Because they want people to think they're something, ANYTHING.

All you've owned up to is that you are basically a gawfic version of the Abercrombie bimbo. You're not being artistic at all. You're just being Vega from Street Fighter.

If you were REALLY concerned with beauty, you'd be as beautiful as possible to maximize your mating pool. But you're not. You don't pursue beauty, you pursue an image that you are NOT. You simply want people to think you're deep, artistic, and interesting. It's people like you that actually turned me off to the gothic scene as a legitimate counterculture.

At it's core, you're just a clown and everyone can see it.

Dude, you are 100% full of shit.

"Anything extraordinary is better than nothing"

Perhaps. Either way, you have a long way to go before you'd recognise extraordinary.

You're cleaving to a stale subculture and telling people to get haircuts you saw on someone else. There are chain-stores selling pre-made versions of your DIY ripped jeans and modded clothes, designed to cater to people with almost identical aesthetic tastes.

That's not fucking extraordinary buddy. Not even sure it's beauty unless beauty is stagnant, mildly pretentious, badly aged and endlessly copied...

Oh SNAP!!1one.

:p Damn straight... :P

Holy shit, Bete. Own a bitch when you get around to it, will ya?

I'll do my best. I'ts hard though, being that I'm afraid to say what I think cause I might bruise a stranger's ego electronically...