[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

You need to take more care to in separating the strands. For example, the mystical Qabbala is clearly derived from if not the christian Cabala then at least the same source. Modern forms of magic can clearly trace their influences to medieval, renaissance and early modern practices which always existed alongside the christian mainstream, some authors taking more care than others to pay lip service to established dogma. I gave plenty of examples in my last post. It's not a case of suddenly deciding to "reclaim" something that stopped thousands of years ago.

A word on the distinction of magic and prayer; most definitions take that prayer is supplication to a god or spirit, where something is requested and something may be offered in return, whereas a magical ceremony is one in which the magician demands or cajoles the spirit into doing his bidding, often using magic words or the names of higher beings to bind the spirit to his will. The former certainly exists in christianity, the latter usually does not.

So, ceremonial magic hasn't been prominent at all. Even Kabbalah rests on asking, not demanding. Its all fancy prayer.

Again, what does that have to do with neopagans trying to revive pre-Christian traditions? So no, it didn't just evolve naturally from Christian or Jewish its-not-even-magic-by-my-definition.

As to alchemy and astrology; again these are practices associated with but distinct from ceremonial magic proper, the latter thing being what kids spinning in their basements are doing. The chemistry part of alchemy has clearly delineated itself, but alchemy was also an extended metaphor for spiritual attainment. Similarly astrology was about more than horoscopes in the paper, it was a whole system of classifying various personalities, moods and the things which influenced them.

And that is what Hermetics were most concerned about, astrology and alchemy. So by your definition, they weren't practicing magic?

Nobody said it was witchcraft. When did I use the word witchcraft? Would you like me to explain the distinction between high magic and low magic or can you do that yourself? I can provide discourses on the history of either, if you're getting them confused.

I say "witchcraft". If you give your widdershuns spinning different hierarchies, I don't really give a fuck.

I never got past like part four, Alyosha just annoyed me. He was too much a carbon copy of Myshkin but without a Nastasia to give him hell. Sure, someone else had the epilepsy in that story, but still, I might be wrong but the whole 'modern age christ' thing was a neat idea the first time but boring at the second call. I'm told Demons isn't like this. Wouldn't have jumped on either as a first example of a mystic.

Poor taste in literature as well. Tsk tsk.

Is that a fancy way of saying nihilism or are you telling me no in chinese?

By process of tedious elimination.. *sigh*.. taoism?

You're really bad at this.