Goth VS. Poser

[Sable_Rose]

What do you consider real Goth and what do you consider poser/wanna-be?

I'm not sure this topic has been posted before -sorry in advance if it has. ...But I'm just curious of what you think makes a real goth and what doesn't.

[ainmhí]

This one has left me scratching my head. I've been accused of not being Goth enough. These accusations are from the same people who only know about the Goth stereotype. *shudders* I'm apparently not melancholy enough for them.

To me a real Goth is someone who appreciates and loves the music, sees beauty in the dark side of emotions and enjoys then displays the decadence and imagination that true Goths have. A poseur is someone who gathers the wrong impressions of Goth and runs with it proclaiming everywhere they go, "I'm Goth and proud of it." without doing a little research into what Goth is all about.

Please, a few weeks ago I had the urge to throw a rock at someone who had a sticker on their car saying, 'I'm so Goth, I'm dead'. I was unable to find my Dork stamp. They would have received that instead of a rock.

[vehemently]

This has most definitely been on this forum before, but I'm going to respond anyway.

Goth has nothing at all to do with Marilyn Manson, Slipknot, or nearly anything you can hear on the radio. Goth doesn't have anything to do with hating the world, hating your parents or hate in general. I think that true goth is about essence, which is something no one can escape; what's you is you, and you can't change your blood. And if you're goth, you're darker, more creative, more introspective and more of a dreamer. You think a lot more.

I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you can't wake up one day and decide to be goth. You can't wake up one day and decide to not be goth [anymore] either. For me, my friends that I see as true goths, have always been very different. Since way back in childhood before they ever heard of the word, they were watching spooky movies two hundred times as I did, listening to stranger music or just being dreamers, and far more creative, than their peers. They also might have seemed a bit darker, which is definitely part of goth essence.

This concludes the ramble of the century. :P

[KontanKarite]

I disagree. Goth is not genetic. You are not born goth. That's silly. Goth is not some divine disposition.

There are those who like the lighter side of art and life, there are those who like the darker side of life and art. Then there are those few who like both sides.

There are many people who share the ideals of goth who do not identify with the goth culture.

There are many goths out there who DO listen to HIM, 69 Eyes, and MCR. Disagree with me all you like, but there's a reason they listen to these groups and they are none the wiser of the gothic culture because they are so separate from the community. Some goths do not know better.

I would say it's possibly a little harder to define who is a poser and who isn't on a grander scale. It is best to know yourself and why you are the way you are. That's easy. Know yourself, not others.

[vehemently]

Well, I didn't mean like it's inherited or forced. But some people have it, and some don't. It all depends on the way you're brought up and the way you develop, really.

And as for the band selection, I was more trying to get across Manson's points and the things he says/does rather than his music or style. One doesn't have to listen to 100% goth music all the time to be goth, not at all. That and that those two bands are the default mallgoth selections.

[KontanKarite]

Well, essentially, yes. It kinda has to do with your tastes and the way you were brought up. I would agree with this. I have a friend who is quite goth, but my gods, does he have a shitty taste in music.

I suppose a poser is someone who does it because it's "cool" to be a goth.

[vehemently]

What I meant was, just because you read even the real default goth authors, listen to the music, wear the clothes, that doesn't make you goth. It's in you. Saying that was probably a lot simpler than my rant about blood and all that mess up there.

I agree there. Poseurs are definitely people who do it to be cool, or to be part of a select group.

[Saddiction]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

There are many people who share the ideals of goth who do not identify with the goth culture.

I agree 100%. I do not self identify as a goth but coexist with alot of people involved in the subculture. I don't listen to Bauhaus, Joy Division, The Sisters of Mercy, etc (ok maybe a lil' bit of Sisters). As for this whole MCR thing, to be quite honest, I don't even know what they sound like. I'm more familiar with harsh electronic back beats. I do, however, have a bf that does self identify. We mesh nicely, I think.

[KontanKarite]

Saddiction, I would have to say, this is something you'll probably deny left and right.

There are goths who deny that they are goths but they are, like it or not and then there are those who know they are and that's okay for them.

Like it or not, you probably are so goth, you shit bats.

[Arashi]

Hmm... I basically would call someone a 'poser' if they dressed and acted a certain way that contradicts their true personality/tastes in clothing simply because their fake self is seen as "cool" by today's standards.

But, eh, as to the "true goth" thing - I havn't got the slightest clue. I keep away from forming opinions about such things, because that always leads to big unwanted arguements. I don't entitle myself as a 'goth' or anything of that sort.

[killer_asian_Dax]

To me- a gothic poser would be someone who claims to be gothic but only lives by the "normie's" stereotyped idea of what goth is.

IMO- A real goth is just someone who prefers and embraces the darker side of life. Who is true to themself and knows exactly who they are and isn't encumbered by what the other people say, do or think.


But again, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[Saddiction]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Saddiction, I would have to say, this is something you'll probably deny left and right.

There are goths who deny that they are goths but they are, like it or not and then there are those who know they are and that's okay for them.

Like it or not, you probably are so goth, you shit bats.

hahahah. Well I guess it all comes down to this hole definition of 'goth' thing. I personally tend to identify more towards rivet, but that's just my opinion

[Arashi]

Originally Posted by killer_asian_Dax

IMO- A real goth is just someone who prefers and embraces the darker side of life. Who is true to themself and knows exactly who they are and isn't encumbered by what the other people say, do or think.

That pretty much describes me, but, I still wouldn't call myself a goth..
Seeing as people commonly have the opinion that a 'goth' is someone who listens to gothic music, and that only...
Entitling myself with such a term isn't important to me in the least bit, anyway..

[Clockwork]

It's the difference between making a conscious (and often misinformed) effort to be something you are not, or just letting your feelings guide you as they do.

[killer_asian_Dax]

I don't think there are a lot of 'real' goths who particularly identify themself as being such. They acknowledge themselves as individuals.

There are some, of course who are and use that term.

I think it's mostly everybody else who "calls" us gothic.

I, myself don't call myself a goth, but that is what I am, for all intensive purposes.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Saddiction

hahahah. Well I guess it all comes down to this hole definition of 'goth' thing. I personally tend to identify more towards rivet, but that's just my opinion

Yes and by some here, they call me a rivet. But hey, I consider a rivethead to be a goth. There are many kinds of goths. Rivetheads are as such.

I'm sure there's plenty that would argue as such on this point. In that, I would just say to deal with it.

[Draconysius]

The difference from goth and poseur... (yes, it's really spelled that way)

A poseur is basically someone who believes they are goth based on what the mainstream thinks is goth. Listening to metal/whiny pop punk music, cutting one's wrists, wardrobe by Hot Topic, writing poetry in a Shakespearian style, etc; Those are stereotypes. To sum it up, they falsely believe themselves to be goths.

A less-offensive term for someone like that is "baby bat". Usually, this term is applied to teens going through a poseur stage that they will either grow out of, or discover goth for what it really is and become a real goth.

[Godslayer Jillian]

A real goth knows about real gothic bands and batcave bands, and at least Christian Death for deathrock.
He knows some of the story of the subculture, and he likes it, so he calls himself one because of this.

A P0H-ZuR would be someone that tries too hard to be a goth. Whether it be by shopping with mommy's credit card (whom she hates of course) in Hot Topic; or trying to write shitty poetry fucking an Edgar Allan Poe poster; the P0H-ZuRz try too hard to be something they're not.
Then there are some semi-P0H-ZuRz that start saying that Goth is not about music or looks but about attitude and begin saying a lot of stuff so that gothic accommodates to them, one of the characteristics being 'to be yourself'. But if that person were himself, why would he be trying to label everything he is as gothic? Because that adjective is cool?
Most probably, which would end up negating the 'be yourself' attitude.

The only way for gothic to keep itself alive and as pretty as it was twenty years before while still evolving is if goths don't take themselves seriously and they disregard the status quo (not by conflicting with it, but by not paying attention to it) even in the same subculture.
So, a word of advice to us all. Let's not make Goth a popularity contest of who looks the more tattered or who knows all the best people (even though we all know that's a bonus thing by being goth =P), and really be individual by being spontaneous.
Whether it's dressing normally without blending with the crowd by doing something simply weird, or riding a bicycle with a parasol, we can be cool without being all-black every single day.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Draconysius

The difference from goth and poseur... (yes, it's really spelled that way)

A poseur is basically someone who believes they are goth based on what the mainstream thinks is goth. Listening to metal/whiny pop punk music, cutting one's wrists, wardrobe by Hot Topic, writing poetry in a Shakespearian style, etc; Those are stereotypes. To sum it up, they falsely believe themselves to be goths.

A less-offensive term for someone like that is "baby bat". Usually, this term is applied to teens going through a poseur stage that they will either grow out of, or discover goth for what it really is and become a real goth.

Notice how when they find out what Goth is really all about, they stop immediately and have some funny, ashamed look on their face?

[Draconysius]

Jillian's pretty much right, you know. Goth WAS founded on a musical genre. We could say it's a mindset because most of us do share many thoughts in common with one another, BUT music is the single most important aspect of goth, so it should be what decides goth from poseur. Goth was NOTHING until the music came along, just like punk, metal, rap, or any other subculture.

[Vyvian Blackthorne]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

I disagree. Goth is not genetic. You are not born goth. That's silly. Goth is not some divine disposition.
.

It depends on how much your spirituality will go within that, some of us feel this way-so it could be disputed even when taken seriously. As for the difference, there are many. If you don't appreicate darkness, and do this thing only as a fad or a limiting phase, then that is a wrong outlook of goth. If you know the philosophy, aspects, and nowadays music, then you know you're goth. Still I tend to disagree when some say if you don't know Bauhaus or any other real goth music, you're not goth. But of course that may go into Draco's theory of goth minded people, like Neil Gaiman or Poppy Z. Brite.

[KontanKarite]

Okay, I will say this and this is rather metaphorical. There are some born and designed to like the rain more than the sun.

Weather you want it to be a spiritual thing is solely on you though...

On a spiritual aspect of it, I would hope I wasn't designed to be an example of what not to be. A questioning, curious, logical, and critical thinker.

[maggot]

Ick. Rivetheads aren't goths. ><

The two certainly grew up together and heavily influenced each other, but they're still separate entities.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by maggot

Ick. Rivetheads aren't goths. ><

The two certainly grew up together and heavily influenced each other, but they're still separate entities.

Granted, Maggot. But as you know, goth has become somewhat of an umbrella. Seriously, you have many, many, many versions of goth.

Wouldn't you rather be called a goth before being called an emo?

[maggot]

Certainly, but I'm neither.