Seperation?

[Breathless Horror]

This is for all the Canadians of G-net, or even or those who care/know what I'm talking about.

I want to know your opinions on the whole issue of Québec wanting to seperate from the rest of Canada. Feel free to post rants, rhetoric, and propaganda.

I personally believe that for the sake of both Canada and Québec, seperation is a bad idea. Without Québec, Canada's economy would take a massive blow, from which it may not recover. Québec, however, faces a nastier fate. They would have no military, as I'm fairly certain the CDS would reassign all personel to outside provincial borders. They would in all likelyhood face large-scale protests and riots, which they may or may not be able to quell without the might of the armed forces.

As we saw with the last referendum on the subject, the population is divided almost equally on this subject. Oui ou Non? Yea or Nay? Let me here it from you.

[MaverickZero]

It's a joke, and a political mule.

Quebec has always been the supremest province, and that's because of the large francophone community. I'm French Canadian myself, and I can tell you that these people being arrogant is not an exaggeration.

It's not everyone in Quebec that is the problem, just the fundamentalists who believe they should be a part of France, because Canada isn't French enough for them.

They complain about how they should be a seperate NATION, and want the same rights as Natives!

Now, correct me here if I'm wrong, but Quebecors are Canadian, they aren't born native, they aren't immigrants, they are born into the country with the same rights as the rest of us. Why should they get special treatment because they refuse to learn English, one of this countrys OFFICIAL languages?

It's mandatory for the rest of us to learn FRENCH in school. So why be so arrogant and snobby?

If the government gives special treatment to Quebec, which the only thing it has power in is the swing vote in politics, thats the only reason they don't let it go, then the government has to give special treatment to Alberta. Alberta supplies Canada with it's oil, BC: It's Lumber, Ontario: Canada's majority of workforce, Maritime Provinces: Fishing and Export.

If they start catering to everyone, then everyone else is going to suffer.

That's why we are UNITED in the first place, to work together to support each other.

We can't give more scraps to one kid because he's the fattest, and whiniest and we just plain feel sorry for him.

[Angels&Absinthe]

Okay, I am going to agree with the both of you. I am from around Toronto (ish) and I admit I don't know terribly much about politics, but I think Quebec needs Canada just as much (or more) than Canada needs Quebec.
My points are basically the same as the ones Breathless Horror stated, so I won't say them all all over again.

I think it is extremely arrogant of Quebec to demand such special treatment, let alone separation. I have heard so much about it, and so many people from Quebec saying how much better it would be that I almost wish they could try it. Just so that they would see how wrong they are and be quiet. However, I know there would be consequences on the economy as well as the people, so I say again: I'm against the separation.

I'm sort of of the mind that if Canada isn't french enough for the fundies, then they ought to move to France. I mean, Canada is a great country and very accepting of multiculturalism in general, so I don't see their problem. Quebec is already granted more say in their governments then the other provinces (such as in schooling and where to allocate money), even though its unfair to other Canadians, so I don't see why they are so unhappy with Canada and our government. I mean, even if you look at representation in Parliament, its fair, so there's nothing to complain about. And then on the Sumpreme Court of Canada, Quebec always holds 3 seats (I think?), so thats a whole third, which I'd say is great for them.

Basically, I just don't see why they are so unhappy as part of Canada. They've got it good as far as I know.

[Drake Dun]

I'm not Canadian, but if a people want to secede from their parent nation and form a new nation, nobody has any business telling them not to. That is an elementary consequence of the principle that people are free, and that the state's purpose is to serve them (not the other way around).

As for whether it's a good idea for Quebec to secede, from an economic point of view or whatever, I'm not in posession of enough information to formulate an opinion.

Drake

[Dancing_in_rain]

*declares that she loves Maverick*

Hehehe...I do love talking about politics. Even though Québec has the 15 highest economy in the world, I am against it's separation from Canada. Politically, Québec is too twisted and not set enough for a separation to work out well. I'm going to try and find that thread I posted a while back...

[MaverickZero]

I love talking Politics too

It's terribly funny that the Quebecers are actually turning on the seperatists now. They kicked out the Bloc in Montreal in favor of the Conservatives.

Although, I think we can all agree that was due to Harper declaring them an independant nation within Canada. Another fucking joke.

[luvPINKxoxo]

hmm i don't live in canada but that sux!

[MaguMan]

Quebec is a funny part of Canada, least of all for it's ambitions to separate. A lot of French Canadians are great people to deal with, though some are just a wee bit too uptight. Or should I say, "some are just a oui bit too uptight." Haha. OK.

Anyways, there has never been a decision to separate from a nation without a referendum. Ususally those referendums come after some long drawn-out conflict that requires the UN to mediate. Quebec isn't there yet and frankly needs to go through parliament in order to do so, if that is really what it wants. Disaster surely lies in wait for both Canada and Quebec if that's what they really want to pursue.

I surely wouldn't want to see Canada broken up. I'd hope most Canadians wouldn't either. Canada is a great nation as-is.

[Saddiction]

Alberta is the driving force behind Canada's present economical state. The reason our dollar is at par (or close it) with the US is because of the O&G industry. I guess what I'm saying is, Quebec needs us more than we need them. If they separate, it will be both our loss, but theirs moreso.

Unless of course the government goes through with that Royalty Review. Now THAT will be a pretty significant blow to Canada's economy.

I think they should stop being babies, suck it up, and quit with the double standards.

For the record, I'm against sepratism. I'm also not too savvy with politics, so take this more as a matter of opinion.

[Angels&Absinthe]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

I'm not Canadian, but if a people want to secede from their parent nation and form a new nation, nobody has any business telling them not to. That is an elementary consequence of the principle that people are free, and that the state's purpose is to serve them (not the other way around).

As for whether it's a good idea for Quebec to secede, from an economic point of view or whatever, I'm not in posession of enough information to formulate an opinion.

Drake

I agree everyone has the right to 'want' anything, whether it is to seperate, annex, etc, and I don't think anyone is saying they aren't allowed to want it, however, the final decision should not be based on this, but on the effect it would have on the economy/people/and whatever else matters. Because of this I am against it.

Also. . . I think Saddiction said it, but I'm too lazy to scroll down and check, so about Alberta being the reason our dollar is on par/above the US one (for the moment): Though I agree Alberta is definitely one of the biggest contributors to our economy, I think the main reason our dollar has risen is weakness in the American economy right now, so once it recovers, our dollar should (unfortunately for me) go down again.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Angels&Absinthe

I agree everyone has the right to 'want' anything, whether it is to seperate, annex, etc, and I don't think anyone is saying they aren't allowed to want it, however, the final decision should not be based on this, but on the effect it would have on the economy/people/and whatever else matters. Because of this I am against it.

See, I think many would share that opinion, but to me it's a stark example of how people still basically accept authoritarianism. We haven't gotten that far from the days of kings and queens, after all.

What you're saying is that the people of Quebec are in some sense the property of Canada, and all their economic activities are duly Canada's, and other Canadians somehow have a right to certain ancillary benefits of those activities that they might not get if Quebec were a soverign nation. In other words, you totally reject the idea of human freedom, accepting instead the mainstream view that the individual is little more than an asset of the state.

If a people want to leave and form their own nation, the only way you can stop them is by using the police or military - i.e., violence. To suggest that you are entitled to use that means in order to enforce a bond of economic servitude in perpetuity on a geographically distinct subset of your population is profoundly anti-democractic, and a complete abnegation of individual liberty.

I suppose you also believe that the United States and Mexico, for example, should not exist?

Drake

[Angels&Absinthe]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

All of his last post...

No, actually, that is not what I am saying, so, in other words, I do not totally reject the idea of human freedom. I think if what I meant was that the people of Quebec belonged to Canada, then I would have said so, but thanks for playing.

If people want to LEAVE and form their own nation, I could not care less; good for them. Yay egalitarianism. That’s not what we’re talking about though. What we are talking about is Quebec becoming a separate country from Canada. Or rather, if you look at the referendum pending then if I have the correct information, it will, in fact, be they who are receiving ancillary benefits from the rest of Canada, since they would be keeping Canadian allies, currency, trading partners and so forth; sort of nation building without the nation building, you know? I would also like to point out that never did I say that Quebec should be forced to stay part of Canada- I simply said it would be a stupid thing to do, so please point out to me where I suggested that I am “entitled to use that means [violence] in order to enforce a bond of economic servitude in perpetuity on a geographically distinct subset of your population” (The verbiage was very convincing though; I almost believed you). What I am saying is that the last referendum taken had 40% of Quebec’s population as separatists, and another 40% as federalists (I think the other 20% were undecided?- I’m not sure). Therefore, it is also my opinion that should Quebec, in some future time, win the vote by what would likely be a small majority, it would be unfortunate to the many others in Quebec who feel it is not a terrible thing to be Canadian. Also, I believe that many of the would-be Canadians would be obliged move to Canada (I feel like it doesn’t make sense writing that…), which would not only complicate the economy, but be difficult for those moving. There was another time where many people left Quebec, and I’d reference it to make my point clearer, but my History class seems to have deserted me for the moment. And yes, it is their choice to leave, but as I don’t think of myself as ‘profoundly democratic’ or even a terrible evil authoritarianism-plotting type of person, that would make me feel bad.

Lastly, I’m not even going to pretend I see any sense in your last comment. I’m trying to think of something clever to come back with, but I just don’t see how you equate a political stance against separatism with anti-other-North American-country…ism. I suppose you’re calling me anti-democratic again, and since I think I’ve already addressed that, I’ll leave it be this time.

[KontanKarite]

Ooh... burn.

[MaverickZero]

Why don't we all just agree to say "Fuck Quebec" and live our lives like we always do?

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Angels&Absinthe

No, actually, that is not what I am saying... I would also like to point out that never did I say that Quebec should be forced to stay part of Canada- I simply said it would be a stupid thing to do... And yes, it is their choice to leave...

Maybe I misunderstood you on that point. This is what I was responding to:

I don't think anyone is saying they aren't allowed to want it, however, the final decision should not be based on this, but on the effect it would have on the economy/people/and whatever else matters.

I took that to mean that it's not their right to secede if they want to, and that the decision had to be made by Canada as a whole. I guess what you actually meant was that they would be wise to base their decision to stay or go not just on their gut feelings, but on a careful consideration of all the relevant facts. I can't disagree with that.

Lastly, I’m not even going to pretend I see any sense in your last comment.

Well, apparently it's not relevant to your position. The point was that anyone who does not accept in principle the right of a people to secede from their parent nation should find the existence of the United States and Mexico (among others) troubling, since both of these nations were formed that way.

Both of those secessions were also, of course, opposed through violent means. This issue is something of a crusade for me, since it's connected to the whole state worship thing. That's another topic. What obviously happened here was that I was looking for a windmill to tilt at and got a flower instead. Sorry about that.

Drake

[Angels&Absinthe]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

All of his last post... again

Fair enough , I should have tried to phrase what I meant more clearly. You are right on the correct interpretation being about the careful consideration of facts, and kudos to you for phrasing it more coherently than I did.

Also, now that I know what you’re talking about, the US/Mexico comment was clever haha, so I take back my ‘not making sense’ thing. It’s always good to have a cause, and since you phrased it so amusingly (‘looking for a windmill to tilt at and got a flower instead’… I like that), I’ll have to say you’re forgiven.

And to MaverickZero. . . Deal.

PS- I was talking about the speration issue with some friends, and it was suggested by someone who had spoken to a Quebecker that an instrumental reason in why they wish to seperate was to control their own immigration laws. I don't find this too unlikely as it is well-known (I think...) that Quebec has long been concerned with keeping their province and culture... pure, I suppose is a fitting word.
Thoughts?

[CptSternn]

I think the idea of the French Canadians in Quebec seperating from Canada is silly. Now, if the indigenous tribes of Native Americans who lived there prior to the 'colonisation' wanted to suceed, well, I'd support that now!

[MaverickZero]

It all boils down to eliticism. Quebec thinks it is THE only French province and that the rest of Canada is watering down the culture.

If they were to go to France, they would learn quickly that they aren't hot shit in a martini glass. Quebec is different from traditional French, however they believe because they are Francophone, they should be dealt with differently than Anglophone. Which is pretty stupid in my opinion. I don't hear Nova Scotians complaining because Canada doesn't recognize it's Acadian heritage. I mean come the fuck on.

It's a political mule the 3 main parties will continue to ride. Without Quebecs swing vote, there wouldn't be any change in parliment.

[Angels&Absinthe]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Now, if the indigenous tribes of Native Americans who lived there prior to the 'colonisation' wanted to suceed, well, I'd support that now!

I'd go for that. I think they've got the short end of the stick for long enough... If Native Americans were given the privileges of Quebec, I think that would be fair. Ish.