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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 01-01-2013, 06:27 PM   #276
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Except I am not saying everyone who happens to have some form of mental illness is batshit crazy. I just don't think someone who poses a danger to themselves or others should be allowed to complete the purchase of a firearm - a sentiment that is already the case to a certain degree.
You mean like EVERYONE? What? Are you the only human on the planet with no capacity for violence?

Matter of fact. Why in the world would you even put a gun in the hands of a harmless person? What do you expect them to do with it? Mount it on their wall?
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Old 01-01-2013, 08:29 PM   #277
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Most the people who commit mass murder haven't been "adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution" So how's that going to help? From what I've read, most of the people who pull this shit don't even have a police record.

Give it a moment maybe and actually THINK about this issue in some sort of depth, instead of continuing to bludgeon the same mushy horse in a strange, fevered manner over and over.
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:28 PM   #278
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Except I am not saying everyone who happens to have some form of mental illness is batshit crazy. I just don't think someone who poses a danger to themselves or others should be allowed to complete the purchase of a firearm - a sentiment that is already the case to a certain degree.
So, stop talking about people with mental illness like it's part of the problem.. or, let me try to explain this another way...

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Old 01-01-2013, 10:34 PM   #279
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@Jonathan - how do you propose that we screen people to find out if they are going to harm themself or others?

Do we ask them? Because even us crazy people know how we're meant to answer that question. I mean, we're crazy but we aren't stupid.

And what happens if someone isn't a danger to themself or to others when they buy the gun but become a danger later on?

Or, what happens if someone is an actual danger (for the sake of argument) and is refused a permit to buy a gun, but become "less insane" and are no longer a danger?

Do you believe that people don't change, that circumstances don't change?
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Old 01-01-2013, 10:37 PM   #280
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In addition to local, state, tribal, and federal agencies voluntarily contributing information to the NICS Index, the NICS Section receives telephone calls from mental health institutions, psychiatrists, police departments, and family members requesting placement of individuals into the NICS Index. Frequently, these are emergency situations and require immediate attention. Any documentation justifying a valid entry into the NICS Index must be available to the originating agencies." *emphasis added*
Wow.. there are SO many ways that this system is open to abuse.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:34 AM   #281
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You mean like EVERYONE? What? Are you the only human on the planet with no capacity for violence?
Did you know there is a difference between someone having the capacity for violence, and actually presenting a credible threat of doing so?

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Matter of fact. Why in the world would you even put a gun in the hands of a harmless person? What do you expect them to do with it? Mount it on their wall?
I expect them to own and use them in a responsible, legal, and safe manner. Like at a firing range during designated hours, for example. The people who aren't murdering or assaulting other people and are not very likely to do so are not a very big concern for me.

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Most the people who commit mass murder haven't been "adjudicated as a mental defective or committed to a mental institution" So how's that going to help? From what I've read, most of the people who pull this shit don't even have a police record.

Give it a moment maybe and actually THINK about this issue in some sort of depth, instead of continuing to bludgeon the same mushy horse in a strange, fevered manner over and over.
Not actually having been adjudicated or committed doesn't mean someone shouldn't have been, nor does it mean that even if they don't require involuntary hospitalization they don't really need help. It's fascinating that you think it is strange and feverish to not want dangerous individuals to have access to weapons, and to want people who need help to have more opportunities to get it.

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Do we ask them? Because even us crazy people know how we're meant to answer that question. I mean, we're crazy but we aren't stupid.
We already do ask them. We also run the NICS check to make sure we don't have evidence to the contrary of what they put down as an answer. I think we're finding that that is insufficient and more needs to be done.

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And what happens if someone isn't a danger to themself or to others when they buy the gun but become a danger later on?
The same thing that should happen if someone has car keys and gets drunk at a party - they get taken away.

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Or, what happens if someone is an actual danger (for the sake of argument) and is refused a permit to buy a gun, but become "less insane" and are no longer a danger?
Great! They'd then probably be allowed to complete a purchase. It would depend on what the screening process would look like.

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Do you believe that people don't change, that circumstances don't change?
No, I do not think those things!
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:43 AM   #282
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Something kind of struck me. I think we all know how to answer questionairs so that they reflect us being in good mental health because we all know the stigmas and steriotypes of people with MI, consciously or not.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:04 AM   #283
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We already do ask them. We also run the NICS check to make sure we don't have evidence to the contrary of what they put down as an answer.
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Great! They'd then probably be allowed to complete a purchase. It would depend on what the screening process would look like.
Do you honestly not see the issue here?
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:17 AM   #284
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Something kind of struck me. I think we all know how to answer questionairs so that they reflect us being in good mental health because we all know the stigmas and steriotypes of people with MI, consciously or not.
It's very true. Even people who are seeking help while in the middle of an acute episode know that they need to be careful of how they phrase things, and know what to say, what not to say.. who to tell specific things, and even the way to say specific things.

~~~~~~~~~ wiggly lines to point out that the following example is totally separate from the above statement, and is not linking someone in an acute episode of mental illness with what I'm about to say at all - just want to be clear here so that there's no recourse for a "but you said!!" later on wiggly lines ~~~~~~~~~

"Do you feel that you're a danger to yourself or others?"
"I don't want to kill myself." (I do want to self harm)
"I don't want to hurt people." (I do want to kill a specific person)
"I don't want to hurt anyone." (I do want to kill everyone and then myself)

Deflective statements scan as true and don't tip off the changes in body language that we're trained to look for when someone is lying. Most medical health professionals won't pick up on the deflection and will then record that the person in question was not only clear in saying that they weren't a danger, but that they were calm and compliant.
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Old 01-02-2013, 10:45 AM   #285
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Questionairres to screen for mental illness is like the "are you 18 or over?" question on porn sites.
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Old 01-02-2013, 11:36 AM   #286
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Not actually having been adjudicated or committed doesn't mean someone shouldn't have been, nor does it mean that even if they don't require involuntary hospitalization they don't really need help. It's fascinating that you think it is strange and feverish to not want dangerous individuals to have access to weapons, and to want people who need help to have more opportunities to get it.
The system you're currently advocating doesn't stop people who haven't already been in the system and potentially hurts millions who are non-violent.

Having to factor the inability to own weapons could potentially discourage people from openly getting the help they need.

The argument for better mental healthcare in the US needs to be a discussion that is separate from this one, because it isn't the issue and only serves to perpetuate the unfounded stereotype that those with MI are dangerous.

It is dishonest to act interested in wishing to reduce violence by discriminating against people who are less likely to be a danger to themselves or others than those who have imbibed alcohol. Gotta love how when we draw the parallel between race or gender, you cry coincidence, but you grab right on to some thing that is far less statistically relevant, this shows your own bias toward the problem. How do you expect to help when you can't let go of a pet idea that has been shown to be not only unhelpful but harmful.

Given the case study I've been going over, it shows stressors amongst the men to be things that would be blows against a "traditionally" masculine identity, failure to be able to provide for family, suffering from bullying, or social/ romantic rejection.

So, should we add "men who are having an identity crisis" to that list? It would only be fair and would probably actually do more good than only focusing on MI.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:04 PM   #287
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Saya, what makes you think a questionnaire is the only possible form of mental health screening? It could easily take the form of extended counciling / therapy. Maybe involving multiple professionals to make a determination. That's just one theoretical, it could be done in any number of ways.

Ape descendant - are you asking me if I think that someone suffering from a mental breakdown be considered not fit to be in possession of a firearm? Yes. Someone experiencing a mental breakdown from any number of triggers should not be in possession of a firearm.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:33 PM   #288
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S
Ape descendant - are you asking me if I think that someone suffering from a mental breakdown be considered not fit to be in possession of a firearm? Yes. Someone experiencing a mental breakdown from any number of triggers should not be in possession of a firearm.
Do you even know what a "mental breakdown" is? It isn't a clinical term, its a huge catch-all lay person's term. If you want to talk about psychological reasons to deny people their right to bear arms, maybe you're going to need to stop pulling vague terminology out of your ass and actually pick up a few books and educate yourself. At this point, every time you vomit up words all you're doing is displaying your glaring ignorance on the topic.
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Old 01-02-2013, 12:57 PM   #289
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Do you even know what a "mental breakdown" is? It isn't a clinical term, its a huge catch-all lay person's term. If you want to talk about psychological reasons to deny people their right to bear arms, maybe you're going to need to stop pulling vague terminology out of your ass and actually pick up a few books and educate yourself. At this point, every time you vomit up words all you're doing is displaying your glaring ignorance on the topic.
Mental breakdown, not clinical terminology so it doesn't exist.
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:12 PM   #290
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A person suffering from Acute Stress Disorder, by way of one example, may suffer from symptoms of

a subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness, A reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings, Derealization, Depersonalization, Dissociative amnesia

These are desirable traits in someone owning and operating firearms?
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Old 01-02-2013, 01:38 PM   #291
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A paranoid delusion is the fixed, false belief that one is being harmed or persecuted by a particular person or group of people. Paranoid delusions are known technically as a “persecutory delusion."

You work at a firearms retailer. An individual suffering from paranoid delusions attempts to complete the purchase of a firearm from you, letting you know he needs it to protect himself from oh who cares, lets say MARTIANS.

You:
A) Complete the transaction. Another victory for social justice!
B) Refuse to sell a crazy person a gun. Fucking ableist.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:10 PM   #292
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Saya, what makes you think a questionnaire is the only possible form of mental health screening? It could easily take the form of extended counciling / therapy. Maybe involving multiple professionals to make a determination. That's just one theoretical, it could be done in any number of ways.
But that is a) an invasion of privacy b) as I have demonstrated earlier, extremely costly to either the person in question or the taxpayer, no one will vote for that. Its controversial to ask employers not to ban birth control from their insurance coverage and was spun that sluts want the taxpayer to pay for their birth control. I can't imagine that going over well. c) absolutely ineffective for many you fear, such as sociopaths. d) extremely discriminatory against the mentally ill.

I find it hilarious you're accusing us of saying we should do nothing, when we have suggested things like hey, maybe no one should have assault rifles instead of just discriminating against the mentally ill. Saying only the mentally ill should be barred is at best a bandaid on a person who's brain is hanging out the back of his head.

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A person suffering from Acute Stress Disorder, by way of one example, may suffer from symptoms of

a subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness, A reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings, Derealization, Depersonalization, Dissociative amnesia

These are desirable traits in someone owning and operating firearms?
You know such a disorder can be brought on at any time in life? One could have bought a firearm in their twenties and in their forties suffer from ASD. I myself have suffered from those symptoms in my late teens, am I forever a irresponsible person, for the rest of my life? I, who has never ever been violent? The worst I've ever done was roughhouse with my sister when we were young. But any frat boy who rraped and brawled in his late teens who is "mentally fit" may have a firearm? Or hey, since you earlier said that soldiers have to be made mentally unfit in order to do violence, why are soldiers then responsible enough to have guns, even when they've killed people?

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Mental breakdown, not clinical terminology so it doesn't exist.
What exists? It depends on what you're talking about. "Mental breakdown" is not a clinical term because its way too vague and covers too many things. You might refer to me having an acute panic attack a mental breakdown, and a person who falls into heavy delusions as having a mental breakdown, but our two different experiences are unique, treated very differently and clinically not the same at all.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:17 PM   #293
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You didn't say Acute Stress Disorder you said "mental breakdown". Funny thing though, Acute Stress Disorder tends to be a temporary problem. So, if some one has suffered from this at some point in their life as a result of some trama, they get treatment and are able to work through it and are healed, should they be denied the right to arm themselves for the rest of their life?

You're just scapegoating at this point, why should any of us take you seriously?
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:25 PM   #294
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This got silly well before page 12. I wish you the very best in your quest to ensure individuals suffering from mental illnesses in all their various forms enjoy the right to own and operate firearms.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:30 PM   #295
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So you're going to totally ignore us when we say that assault weapons shouldn't be in anyone's hands and just assume we want to arm everyone to the teeth?

Are you sure you don't have delusions you'd like to talk to us about?
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:33 PM   #296
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No you have successfully changed my mind. I realized I was wrong, now I'm all for crazy people having guns. Arm the insane.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:46 PM   #297
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A person suffering from Acute Stress Disorder, by way of one example, may suffer from symptoms of

a subjective sense of numbing, detachment, or absence of emotional responsiveness, A reduction in awareness of his or her surroundings, Derealization, Depersonalization, Dissociative amnesia

These are desirable traits in someone owning and operating firearms?
Those are traits ppossessed by everyone. Again, it's not yes/no sick/healthy.
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Old 01-02-2013, 02:49 PM   #298
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Oh ok everyone has ASD. Cool. Guns for everyone.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:27 PM   #299
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I said that the traits you described are present of everybody. I did not say everybody has that disorder at all times.

And I'm actually of the opinion that nobody should have guns because I recognize that everybody is capable of extreme violence. The only criteria necessary is to be human.
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Old 01-02-2013, 03:28 PM   #300
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Speaking of a disconnect from reality...
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