The First Goth Band

[Man In Room 5]

Not to brag but I've been doing a lot of research and trying to outline the history of goth for a book I hope to write. Sometimes I worry that it's already been done by someone with more resources and knowledge than myself...but then I read articles like Catch's, and threads like this, and realize I have nothing to fear. Either the definitive history of goth has yet to be written, or it has been written and nobody has actually read it.

[viscus]

Originally Posted by Mr. Filth

If that's true than you would agree that he's the forum equivalent of Nighmare's mohawk.

Catch is a woman. A sexless cow perhaps, but still.

[Tam Li Hua]

Does it really matter what artist first got this [mostly hated] label for their music?

Just enjoy what you enjoy.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

Not to brag but I've been doing a lot of research and trying to outline the history of goth for a book I hope to write. Sometimes I worry that it's already been done by someone with more resources and knowledge than myself...but then I read articles like Catch's, and threads like this, and realize I have nothing to fear. Either the definitive history of goth has yet to be written, or it has been written and nobody has actually read it.

Here's a list of books already written on the subject. [I liked "What is Goth?" by Voltaire, personally. ]

I don't think it's not that folks haven't read about Gothicity, but rather that folks forget that the word 'goth' was created by the media to describe the genre of music that was already well-established around the early to mid-80's, and wasn't a term used by the fans or the bands at all.

[Man In Room 5]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Here's a list of books already written on the subject. [I liked "What is Goth?" by Voltaire, personally. ]

Yeah, I read most of those actually, and some not on that list too. Since Sept 2007 I've been keeping a list of all my reading research. I've read 87 books so far and have about two dozen more I want to read. It's become a massive project and I've really had to cut back the scope--which helps me understand why so many of these other books suck. I suppose they all wanted to write the definitive goth study too but had to make cuts just as I did. Right now I'm just trying to make the right cuts so that my book will still have a unique slant that the others don't have. I still think there's room for another interpretation, but after spending a few months on Gnet I can better understand exactly how I'm going to get attacked if it ever gets published. I'm going to get slammed because my book will only follow one angle out of many and people are going to cry that I've reduced goth to a single formula....and inevitably those who slam me will be those who have never attempted such a project themselves.


I read "What is Goth?" by Voltaire in March. It was funny. I think gothic comedy is a pretty limited field but he keeps pulling it off. He's one of the few people I'd love to interview or have proofread my manuscript...if it ever gets done.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by MOUSEBLOOD

Did you know that back in the sixties both The Doors and Iron Butterfly were refered to as "gothic".

I think both Black Sabbath and The Stooges were referred to as Goth at points in the '70s, too.

[Bete Noire]

Hmm what about Theatre of Ice? Mouseblood's own band. They were pretty early goth type sound.

[gothicusmaximus]

I hear tell that Ur of Cave-like-Panther-Mouth used to squeeze bats of different sizes to produce proto-musical sounds. This was very amusing the paler, more dark-minded of his tribemates.

[Catch]

Okay during the 60's and 70's progressive rock was born. This led to hard rock and metal. Later on, this affected punk. Punk become post-punk. Post-punk remained post-punk for a long time, then something happened. The Details quote explained what happened. The Birthday Party was called gothic and the punk scene was revitalized. Then anyone with the slightest ressembalance to the Birthday Party formed gothic.

Joy Division made the first noise record, but it was noise, not gothic. There were already several similiar artists experimenting with rock; however, they were all shuffled into post-punk. Calling the Birthday Party gothic, defined a specific type of post-punk into a limited category.

Personally, it has always bothered me, because there isn't that much difference between goth and punk. Goth has heavier bass lines seems to intergrate classical music into the melodies. Other than that it is all scattered and similiar to punk.

Then there is the matter of metalheads declaring that all goth is metal after gotics finally got a couple metal bands. System of a Down is gothic. Morbid Angel is not, and I resent it, because it is bad advertising. If I went to see Morbid Angel in my cute little black outfit with the white stripes and lacy collar; expecting, to hear something like Vampire Lestat, I am not a happy customer. All I will see is wall to wall f*Dudes and probably get outfit torn.

It needs to be identified. There are these punk bands wearing black, and they are still punk Goths don't like the music and punks think they are sellouts. Metalheads just need to step off.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Catch

Okay during the 60's and 70's progressive rock was born. This led to hard rock and metal.

Wrong. During the '60s, Hard Rock, Garage Rock, and Psychedelic Rock were born, leading to Prog Rock and early Heavy Metal and Punk.

Later on, this affected punk. Punk become post-punk. Post-punk remained post-punk for a long time, then something happened. The Details quote explained what happened. The Birthday Party was called gothic and the punk scene was revitalized. Then anyone with the slightest ressembalance to the Birthday Party formed gothic.

Wrong. People were calling bands "Gothic" quite a while before The Birthday Party formed. Also, Post-Punk hadn't even been around that long at this point.

Joy Division made the first noise record, but it was noise, not gothic.

"Noise-Rock" started in the '60s and early '70s. The Birthday Party sounds a lot more noise than Joy Division. Seriously. Have you even HEARD the two?

Personally, it has always bothered me, because there isn't that much difference between goth and punk. Goth has heavier bass lines seems to intergrate classical music into the melodies. Other than that it is all scattered and similiar to punk.

It's easy to tell the two apart.

Then there is the matter of metalheads declaring that all goth is metal after gotics finally got a couple metal bands. System of a Down is gothic. Morbid Angel is not, and I resent it, because it is bad advertising. If I went to see Morbid Angel in my cute little black outfit with the white stripes and lacy collar; expecting, to hear something like Vampire Lestat, I am not a happy customer. All I will see is wall to wall f*Dudes and probably get outfit torn.
It needs to be identified. There are these punk bands wearing black, and they are still punk Goths don't like the music and punks think they are sellouts. Metalheads just need to step off.

Where the hell are you getting this?

[Catch]

What Joy Division is based off of musical experiments conducted in the late 60's, associated to Psychedelic Rock. They cleaned it up to show they could play their instruments, but it wasn't called "gothic."

I like Joy Division. They are great; however, getting inducted later doesn't count.

I am surprised you haven't known how badly the mainstream screwed over the Emos. They get obviously non-goth bands, dress them in black and people believe the labeling. Then they get kicked out of gothism, because they didn't know the difference. Unfortunately, the difference has never been clearly defined. People just know.

I well boldly state that gothic applies progressive rock and blues techniques to punk, whatever punk is.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Catch

What Joy Division is based off of musical experiments conducted in the late 60's, associated to Psychedelic Rock. They cleaned it up to show they could play their instruments, but it wasn't called "gothic."
I like Joy Division. They are great; however, getting inducted later doesn't count.

Listen to both their first and second albums (their ONLY ones before Ian Curtis hanged himself). Not only does it have a traditional "Goth Rock" sound, but it WAS recognized as such at the time. Not only is your claim innacurate, but it's blatant historical revisionism.

I am surprised you haven't known how badly the mainstream screwed over the Emos.

Are you mentally challenged or something? Besides that statement being entirely irrelevant, I'm quite aware of how the "mainstream" screwed over "emos". If too many people jump on a ship at once, it starts to sink.

They get obviously non-goth bands, dress them in black and people believe the labeling.

Example?

Then they get kicked out of gothism, because they didn't know the difference. Unfortunately, the difference has never been clearly defined. People just know.

The difference between Goth and Metal or Goth and Punk? Both are bloody obvious. Punk is aggressive Garage-influenced rock in the vein of The Ramones, The Clash, and other early Punk bands. Metal is a Heavier version of Hard Rock. Goth is a specific kind of dark post-punk. If you don't have ears, though, it might be hard to tell.

I well boldly state that gothic applies progressive rock and blues techniques to punk, whatever punk is.

You need to listen to some Prog Rock and Blues.

[Catch]

So I just wrote something else. Suppose you have a problem with my music theory, though you lack any historical documentation to prove your point!

http://gothilk.blogspot.com/2008/12/...oth-sound.html

[Man In Room 5]

Catch, I'm going to tell you something that everyone else here knows but apparently nobody has the nerve to tell you or the time to explain to you.

You can't write.

Which leads to the corollary:

Nobody cares what you write.

Which leads to the corollary:

There's no point in you posting anything.....ever.

You write as if you're talking at people instead of talking to them or talking with them. You totally fail to engage the reader. That's fine if you're a college professor giving a lecture to students who are obligated to listen; but we've all seen that you're no college professor and (thankfully) none of us are obligated to listen to you. You imitate the tone of authority yet you make obvious errors in grammar and logic and cull most of your data from the most commonly known sources. Your assumption that you must reinterpret Wikipedia articles for the rest of us is insulting to intelligent readers and it's obvious that you aim your writing to a vague generalized personification of "the masses" rather than envisioning your work as being read by real people. All of this is worsened by your horribly lame and off kilter humor which makes it difficult for us to differentiate between when you're trying to be funny and when you're just plain stupid.

It's like watching a retard make fun of a retard for a crowd of retards.

[Maxim_Macabre]

Bauhaus.
Tencharacters.

[I Am Great.]

Carl Orff.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Man In Room 5

Your assumption that you must reinterpret Wikipedia articles

That's assuming that Catch has access to Wikipedia. I'm getting the idea that she's just going to random blogs.
I mean, anyone with even a tiny bit of judgment and access to Wikipedia would be able to tell that SOAD and Korn aren't Gothic.

[I Am Great.]

The Beets.

[Mr. Filth]

Originally Posted by I Am Great.

The Beets.

Honk Honk!

Was anyone here actually unaware of The Birthday Party before this thread was made?

[I Am Great.]

Did anyone care?

[Mr. Filth]

Bangin on a trash can. Knockin on a street light. Think big.

[I Am Great.]

That sounds like my first album.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by Mr. Filth

Honk Honk!

Was anyone here actually unaware of The Birthday Party before this thread was made?

Honestly, I think the only one who hadn't heard of them before was Catch.

[Catch]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

That's assuming that Catch has access to Wikipedia. I'm getting the idea that she's just going to random blogs.
I mean, anyone with even a tiny bit of judgment and access to Wikipedia would be able to tell that SOAD and Korn aren't Gothic.

Wiki is a load. It is written by users whom we have to trust to know the facts. I could go over there and state that ACDC's "Big Balls" was the first gothic song. However, I am trying to have a constructive study. Post-punk experimented with all kind of music. I have pin-pointed when the labeling occured. Industrial is also based on post-punk. I think people don't like this because of the word, "punk." Post-punk isn't punk, it is just a big musical free-for-all.

[MOUSEBLOOD]

I've probably seen a 100 threads on the net concerning what was the first "Gothic" or the first "Deathrock" this or that. I will say that I haven't seen THE BIRTHDAY PARTY mentioned very often. They were definitely around during it's formation, but probably not all that influential.