We will never forget...

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Corpsey

You depress me, Drake... This is one of the reasons why I remember watching Monty Python with my grandfather so vividly.

Yeah, that was a good story. An appreciative nod to your grandfather.

I get what you're saying Drake, but it makes me feel fucking sick of humans.

Things like this are trying, but it's not necessarily as bad as it seems. Most Americans are against the war, and of the ones who are for it, 90% are only for it because they don't understand what is really going on.

It's a very rare person whose opinion is "Yeah, we want the oil. Fuck 'em". It's just that those people tend to float to the top of power structures. Which is why I am against power altogether. But that would be to descend into politics.

*Goes to watch something mildly entertaining to cheer up to*

That's a healthy and perfectly ethical response, and don't let anybody tell you otherwise.

Drake

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Afghanistan was justified in my humble opinion...

I think so, too, but it was a closer thing than most people seem to realize. The White House disregarded potentially serious offers for negotiation to hand over bin Laden peacefully. What we got instead was a war - and no bin Laden.

9/11 touched me personally so I choose to remember the loss with somber thought... Cantor-Fitzgerald was a company that occupied the top floors of one of the twin towers. They were a customer of mine... When the attacks occurred and the buildings caught fire, television captured people that I worked with, people that I knew, jumping out of the windows to their death to escape death by fire... to see guys like me that... slaughtered and taken from their families in such a horrific manner is something I cannot forget.

I'm sorry to hear it. Which is a pretty weak thing to say, but it is sincere, and I don't know what would be better. People deserve better than that.

Drake

[Lapin]

I was twelve when it happened. I was at school, talking about a TV show I'd missed with my friend. I walked into my history class, where the TV was on, when suddenly the news cut off and the panicked reporter started stumbling over themselves as the footage was shown.

I remember stopping and staring as the plane went into the building, thinking that it must be bad. I didn't know what the Towers were. I hadn't known they even existed. I was twelve, on Fort Bragg, in N. Carolina.

People were so scared, all these little kids getting worked up, the teachers stone silent or looking like they were about to fall apart. My mother was so scared she came and got me from school, since Bragg is a relatively important base. I didn't understand.

The next day, we went to school, but there were no teachers. They couldn't get on base. They had young soldiers watching us in the gym. We didn't understand what the big deal was. We were having fun, running around the gym and playing. After that, there were always soldiers in pairs patrolling the school grounds, guns held ready. They were in the neighborhoods too.

I still didn't understand.

But this past year, in Criminal Justice, we watched all the footage. On a home movie, I saw the first plane fly overhead, saw the people staring at it, as it crashed into the tower. All the people just stared stock-still for a split-second. They couldn't believe it. Then they were screaming, running, afraid.

I suddenly got it. I was shaking in my desk. I couldn't watch the screen. I suddenly understood what it had meant, the whole thing.

My mother was scared for me Tuesday. She told me to text her '911' if anyone did anything crazy, since it was the first Tuesday Sept. 11th since the attack. She didn't want to let me go, since my college is thirty minutes away. She warned me to get out of the building, to hit the ground, all of that. I've never seen her so afraid for me, the oldest, the responsible one, the one she has never needed to be afraid for.

Sept. 11th itself meant little to me when it happened, and even today, even though the footage makes me cringe, I have no personal connection to it. I know no one in NYC. No one I knew got hurt.

But my mother's fear that someone will do it again, and that I will die, that she will lose me, drives it home.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

The White House disregarded potentially serious offers for negotiation to hand over bin Laden peacefully. What we got instead was a war - and no bin Laden.

There was really only one serious offer; that being to hand him over to Pakistan to stand trial. Pakistan, not the US, rejected that offer. That wasn't the US' right to overstep a sovereign nation in acceptance of using their court system to put this guy on trial. The other offers were, of course, not serious, as they included putting Bin Laden on trial there in Afghanistan, which was an outright insult to the intelligence of the world community.

The White House gave several VERY clear ultimatums that the Taliban did not want to comply with. Ultimatums like shutting down all terror camps, including ones that hosted groups destabilizing neighboring countries and regional players (such as China, Russia, Uzbekistan, and many, many, many more). The meager/attempted overtures they made weren't even bare minimum to fixing or even addressing the problems that 9/11 really brought to the spotlight.

They wanted to keep on exporting Jihad to every country around the world, not realizing that's gonna be a major no-no in a post 9/11 world when all of the guns are trained on them.

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

Media coverage does not equal political influence.

The only point Osama Bin Laden made was that there are still plenty of nutjobs in the world.

On the contrary, it means alot in our culture. The "fact" Osama is still alive is a slap in the face to what the entire "War on Terror" is standing for.

I'm not saying I believe Americans to be cocky bigots, I am just saying that is what a lot of the 3rd world countries are taught to believe by radical extremists. They are taught that Americans are out for blood and they are evil devils. Those who believe it, believe it. However acts like jumping into Iraq after the war declared on Afghanistan, starts to sway some of those neutral in those extremist countries.

I am trying to take an open ended view on this entire situation.

The terrorists attacked in an attempt to show that the great US of A can bleed. They succeeded. I don't think it's right, on either sides account.

I do believe that Industrialism and Capitalism works for us. However, imposing it on a culture that has been nomadic, tribal, based on merchants etc, is not a good idea. It is just the same as if the British came to the US and declared that they have to obey the Queen of England and be governed under her rule. Or if the Middle East came over and imposed that we must practice Islam, and cover our women up. Communism works for China, Capitalism works for North America.

All in all, our way of life is like Religion. We can't all agree on one standard, we all just have to accept each others way of life.

[LadyLucretia]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Communism works for China, Capitalism works for North America.

All in all, our way of life is like Religion. We can't all agree on one standard, we all just have to accept each others way of life.

I agree that American foreign policy is a mess, and reinforces negative stereotypes as well as gives extremists more reasons to hate us. But the average U.S. citizen knows this, and is counting down until Bush is out of power and our world reputation can rebound.

And this is getting off topic, but equating Chinese communism with American capitalism is an incredibly bad comparison. China massively violates human rights, and there are thousands of small, violent peasant uprisings every year that are suppressed by the government, often using lethal force. Their government has mandatory abortions and sterilizations, suppresses any freedom of press, etc. etc. etc. The U.S. is far from perfect (especially because we trade with China) but at least we pretend to respect human rights most of the time.

And I don't buy into cultural relativism. Cultures that don't respect basic human rights don't deserve my respect.

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by LadyLucretia

And I don't buy into cultural relativism. Cultures that don't respect basic human rights don't deserve my respect.

I'm not saying we need to respect anyone... Just co-exisit. Because you know once you throw sand in one kids face, that kid runs to his friends, and so on.

Hell, isn't that what diplomacy is? Pretending to be someones friend, in order to get favors from others. You may not like em, but you don't have to bed with them so to speak.

[badteccy]

Nevar Forg3t.

[Wormboy]

Originally Posted by badteccy

Nevar Forg3t.

Use of stupid internet slang, this will cost you major points and your right to reproduce.

[CptSternn]

...and here we go. The new right wing duo attempting to skew the facts in another thread.

I had the deceny *not* to post political aguments to this thread, out of respect.

The right-wing duo however, have once again taken it upon themselves to turn a somber thread into a political discussion with a right-wing slant.

Ever notice LadyLuceitia and Maguman post back to back in every political thread here? Both having the same opinion?

Also notice both just joined and 99% of their posts are all efforts to skew facts in the political forums?

Even when people who are against the current administration try and have a discussion on something like remembering the dead, they try and work in Osama, Islam, and a dozen other right-wing buzz words to the mix.

IF this is what this thread will deteriorate into, then let it be known I will post my personal opinions as well.

[badteccy]

Originally Posted by Wormboy

Use of stupid internet slang, this will cost you major points and your right to reproduce.

Well, it's a good thing I hate kids.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by MaguMan

There was really only one serious offer...

I don't think that's accurate, but I am more or less on a page with you anyway. It seems pretty unlikely that the war could actually have been averted. I just think the slim possibilities for doing so should have been properly exhausted first.

Drake

[delicti]

Let's not politicize a pause for memory of the dead. There is already a place on this forum to discuss the politics of this matter.

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by delicti

Let's not politicize a pause for memory of the dead. There is already a place on this forum to discuss the politics of this matter.

Personally, I'm not politicizing it. I am simply saying, We will never forget, we should let sleeping dogs lie however.

We Shall Never Forget, We Shall Never Let It Go.

Letting go is a process of healing.

I do agree that this thread seems to have a hardcord right wing slant, and that the overall tone of really any thread that seems to go left for those two to jump and claw all over it.

Yes, 9/11 is a horrible time. No, it shouldn't be observed for eons and decades. As much as we hate to say it, 9/11 is history now. As is Pearl Harbor, as is Hiroshima, as is Chernobyl, as is Hurricane Katrina, etc.

I say, observe it in peace. Don't observe it to get publicity or attention put on yourself. It is not justified, it is not correct to do so.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

9-11 is no more a somber event than Spring Break.

I assume you would have a party every time you hear of Americans dying?

[delicti]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

Yes, 9/11 is a horrible time. No, it shouldn't be observed for eons and decades. As much as we hate to say it, 9/11 is history now. As is Pearl Harbor, as is Hiroshima, as is Chernobyl, as is Hurricane Katrina, etc.

But we still remember veteran's day and memorial day, to complete your analogy. And to further extrapolate, nobody thinks the Nazis won.

I understand your belief that creating a climate where we are jumpy because of the terrorists is allowing them a small victory, but I don't think a moment of silence is that.

[MaguMan]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Also notice both just joined and 99% of their posts are all efforts to skew facts in the political forums? ... IF this is what this thread will deteriorate into, then let it be known I will post my personal opinions as well.

So my posting about facts makes you feel that gives you the right to interject your harebrained personal opinions? Is that what you regard as facts?

Even when people who are against the current administration try and have a discussion on something like remembering the dead, they try and work in Osama, Islam, and a dozen other right-wing buzz words to the mix.

Yeah... mention of Osama has no place in a thread about 9/11. You're such a genius, CptSternn.

By the way, I thought you put me on ignore after the last time I stomped your ass out in a political debate. So what's all this mention of my posts here?

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by delicti

But we still remember veteran's day and memorial day

And you forget those were Worldwide. The US isn't the center of the universe as many would like to think, this is why 9/11 shouldn't be classed up to the standard that the end of World War II should be. That is just arrogance.

People celebrated 9/11 happening over in the middle east. Why? Because it was David knocking out Goliath in their eyes. The US has never been demonstrated against with such force, since Pearl Harbor.

Worldwide events overshadow a local tragedy, simply because it effects everyone. You may claim that 9/11 rocked the nation, when in fact not a hell of a lot of people who aren't around New York really care all that much anymore. The only people that gush about it now, are people who have something to gain. They aren't the families going out and asking for support in their shattered life, they are people who are going out to be spotlighted for pity.

You want devastating effects that last til this day? Hiroshima. Chernobyl. Far worse than 9/11. We don't observe those days and hold a minute of silence for the innocents killed then, so why ask the rest of the world to do it for you?

[Lapin]

You are all so bloody stupid! This thread was only supposed to be about rememberance, not your political garbage! Shut your damn mouths and take this conversation to the thread it belongs in!

[MaverickZero]

Originally Posted by Lapin

You are all so bloody stupid! This thread was only supposed to be about rememberance, not your political garbage! Shut your damn mouths and take this conversation to the thread it belongs in!

If it is for remembrance, post it in a different thread. This is politics, therefore it shall be discussed as such.

And by the way, thank you for the eloquence you've brought to this conversation, you really helped the discussion alot. Now please don't post again unless you have something more mindful to say, and not mindless bitching.

[Lapin]

You're a bit of a bastard.

This thread was meant to remember Sept. 11th. Not start on about how it was nothing compared to other tragedies, or how it was poorly handled, or manipulated, or deserved.

I am just so sick of everyone talking about whose fault it is. People bloody died. Mourn them for just a few minutes and how it changed America. Just shut it about the rest for one second.

[MaverickZero]

If you don't want the thread to be politically viewed, post it in general for fuck sake.

Personally, I'm tired of being told what I should and shouldn't be thankful for, or what I should and shouldn't be worried about.

Sept. 11th is a day, a day in history. Period. People died. People die every day. It was a concentration of people dying that made it significant, however do I think the entire WORLD should stop and remember it? No. For the families it touched, let them have their moment. Lets not jump together and wear the fucking badge here.

One thing I'm damn sick of, are people who run to the sides of these families, who have no reason to be sad or sorry, other than the reason that they worked as a janitor across the building from the place their best friend worked at 2 years ago.

It was a rough time around the incident. However, those who have not been DIRECTLY affected by it, need to shut the fuck up about it.

Let the families mourn in their own way. Don't spotlight them and bring it up again and again. Quit using it as a feel good story of self satisfaction and grow up.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by MaverickZero

If it is for remembrance, post it in a different thread. This is politics, therefore it shall be discussed as such.

I agree with Lapin on this one, as I have said no less than three times already. This thread is for a moment of remembrance. If you chose to ignore the original poster and interject something off-topic, it's call hijacking a thread.

You really need to read some netiquette rules if you think you're in the correct opinion here. Even Sternn, as biased as he is, kept quiet on this thread before you egged him into posting.

[Lapin]

Thank you Delicti. You made me feel like I wasn't being stupid or easily offended. Even though I should have just not said anything at all.

As for you Z. Zero, you need to learn some netiquette, like the above says.

[delicti]

Originally Posted by Lapin

Thank you Delicti. You made me feel like I wasn't being stupid or easily offended. Even though I should have just not said anything at all.

I don't think you've ever appeared to be either. And thank you for saying something, it was getting lonely having that sentiment.