Homophobia.... - Page 3

Raveanya · 06-18-2009, 06:04 AM

Well, hmm looks that way don't it?

Serren · 06-18-2009, 04:52 PM

I guess some people just hate anyone different from them.

I don't know why people are so bothered by other peoples sexuality but as a society we seem to be obsessed by it, not just with homosexuality but with any kind of sexual behavior... I don't know why some people are so bothered about other peoples relationships and sex lives.

Sir Canvas Corpsey · 06-19-2009, 05:35 AM

Because people have to be bothered by something or else life is boring.

JCC · 06-19-2009, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Are you seriously fucking comparing being goth to being gay or black?

Why not? Simply because there hasn't been any widespread systematic repression or discrimination against goths doesn't mean that such discrimination shouldn't be addressed in the same breath as other minority groups subject to ridicule or hate crime and so on.

Underwater Ophelia · 06-19-2009, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

Why not? Simply because there hasn't been any widespread systematic repression or discrimination against goths doesn't mean that such discrimination shouldn't be addressed in the same breath as other minority groups subject to ridicule or hate crime and so on.

Why not?
Because it's not a real culture, and you can CHANGE it.

Black people can't hide from being black.
It's also a real culture.

Raveanya · 06-19-2009, 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Why not?
Because it's not a real culture, and you can CHANGE it.

Black people can't hide from being black.
It's also a real culture.

If you have belief in evolution, it very well could end up a culture, it's already climbing in numbers, and practically has it's own lifestyle. Look at America, how we differentiate so tremendously from the UK and Europe where we originated.

I'm not saying goths are going to break apart from the world, but that doesn't mean there's not a remote possibility that goth could become it's own culture.

JCC · 06-20-2009, 02:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Why not?
Because it's not a real culture, and you can CHANGE it.

Black people can't hide from being black.
It's also a real culture.

What does it matter whether you can change it? Why should you have to? When you heard about the attacks against Christians in India did you say, "Well, clearly there's no issue if these people will just cave in and renounce their beliefs, stop hogging my TV"? It's remarkably daft to try and make a hierarchy of discrimination, and even more stupid to say that it's not as bad because you can just succumb to ignorant bullies or thugs.

Underwater Ophelia · 06-20-2009, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

What does it matter whether you can change it? Why should you have to? When you heard about the attacks against Christians in India did you say, "Well, clearly there's no issue if these people will just cave in and renounce their beliefs, stop hogging my TV"? It's remarkably daft to try and make a hierarchy of discrimination, and even more stupid to say that it's not as bad because you can just succumb to ignorant bullies or thugs.

First of all, is goth about fashion or not?
If it's not, like so many of us are fans of saying, this ends here, because then you can be a part of the culture and no one knows unless you're shouting about it.

Second, no, you shouldn't have to change for other people.
I'm not commenting on an ideal world, however, I'm commenting on reality. In reality, people are really really shitty, and sometimes you have to do things that aren't right in order to not get the shit kicked out of you.

In terms of avoiding this shit kicking, you ARE worse off being black or a woman, or even gay.

About the culture thing--no it's not a legitimate culture. There's a reason the word SUB culture exists.
Goth doesn't have a real structure, it doesn't have religion, it doesn't have foods associated with it, it doesn't really have a style of dress associated with it, and even having music associated with it is sketchy, because goths are so ready to claim that such and such isn't goth.

JCC · 06-20-2009, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Second, no, you shouldn't have to change for other people.
I'm not commenting on an ideal world, however, I'm commenting on reality. In reality, people are really really shitty, and sometimes you have to do things that aren't right in order to not get the shit kicked out of you.

That's such a fucking cop-out. You ridicule someone for likening discrimination against goths to racism and then your alternative is to just put up with it because goth doesn't have affiliated fucking foods or something else equally superfluous. Seriously, sometimes you are just disagreeable for the sake of it and say something unbelievably ridiculous.

Underwater Ophelia · 06-20-2009, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

That's such a fucking cop-out. You ridicule someone for likening discrimination against goths to racism and then your alternative is to just put up with it because goth doesn't have affiliated fucking foods or something else equally superfluous. Seriously, sometimes you are just disagreeable for the sake of it and say something unbelievably ridiculous.

No, you're just using the term "culture" way too loosely.

Wrath · 06-20-2009, 07:39 PM

I would just attribute this to yet another prime example as to why people should be made to fill out a form befor they are aloud to breed.

JCC · 06-21-2009, 03:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

No, you're just using the term "culture" way too loosely.

Actually, I didn't use the term 'culture' at all. Frankly, I don't care whether it's a culture, subculture, demiculture, horticulture or agriculture, or even not a culture at all. It's people being discriminated against, and you thought that you'd say something abrasive and disagreeable and that people would say "LOL, GOOOOO O-P-H-E-L-I-A!" like they usually do, except that this time you're being dumb. I hear more accounts of people being bullied for the way that they dress or the music that they like than I do of people being bullied for their race any more, and we've even stepped that up to hate crimes against people for what they wear or like. If you're going to establish your own little hierarchy of which discrimination is important and which isn't then you're clearly approaching it the wrong way.

Godslayer Jillian · 06-21-2009, 03:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wrath

yet another prime example as to why people should be made to fill out a form befor they are aloud to breed.

Why? I guess I missed the example.

Underwater Ophelia · 06-21-2009, 08:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JCC

Actually, I didn't use the term 'culture' at all. Frankly, I don't care whether it's a culture, subculture, demiculture, horticulture or agriculture, or even not a culture at all. It's people being discriminated against, and you thought that you'd say something abrasive and disagreeable and that people would say "LOL, GOOOOO O-P-H-E-L-I-A!" like they usually do, except that this time you're being dumb. I hear more accounts of people being bullied for the way that they dress or the music that they like than I do of people being bullied for their race any more, and we've even stepped that up to hate crimes against people for what they wear or like. If you're going to establish your own little hierarchy of which discrimination is important and which isn't then you're clearly approaching it the wrong way.

You're wrong about my motive for saying that, but I can't make you believe me, so there's no point in continuing this.

viscus · 06-21-2009, 10:13 AM

I'll admit I rolled my eyes at Raveanya likening herself to being black or gay because she chooses to be ostentatious in her appearance. But any kind of discrimination based on benign things is wrong.

KontanKarite · 06-21-2009, 11:17 AM

Hating people for what they wear and like is a poor excuse for bad behavior.

Priorities and all that. Help the masses, fix the bigger problems and maybe someday we can actually get to a point where we can help the individual.

As it is, a 12 year old is being taught that ****** lesbians til they're straight IS going on and it's highly likely that within the environment the child is being raised in, we'll have to deal with this future bigot.

I find a common thread with those that are goth/punk/ect that they have to deal with is that they are collaterally implicite of being a part of a larger minority, the gay minority. Believe me, if you get this shit kicked out of you for wearing ripped up black fishnets and tight black clothes, it's more likely because you appear gay instead of being a goth.

viscus · 06-21-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

As it is, a 12 year old is being taught that ****** lesbians til they're straight IS going on and it's highly likely that within the environment the child is being raised in, we'll have to deal with this future bigot.

I had wanted to say something along these lines. What a 12 year old thinks is not nearly negligible if no one ever takes the initiative to correct his flawed thinking.

gothicusmaximus · 06-21-2009, 11:04 PM

Actually, comparing being goth to being gay or black is fucking stupid. Of course it's wrong to judge someone for how they dress-- no one is disputing that-- but to allege that goths face the same hardships that gay and black individuals face is absurd.
Are there any laws preventing goths from getting married to other goths? Is it policy that one musn't mention to one's comrades in the military, "oh, I'm a goth"? Have Goths ever suffered an injustice as tremendous as slavery or Apartheid? How many people are victims of violent crimes because of their subcultural affiliation, compared to those who are so because of their race or sexual orientation? To be fair, there aren't really many goths in the places where bigotry is most thoroughly institutionalized, but that's not a coincidence.
Maybe Raveanya lives in a town in which skinny girls wearing fishnets are conceived of as drug-peddling, gun-toting ape-people, and African-Americans are able to avoid any bigotry by dressing 'corporate black'-- I doubt it, but if so, bless her for her bravery.

Godslayer Jillian · 06-21-2009, 11:15 PM

Actually, comparing the hardships of being goth to being gay or black is fucking stupid, but comparing the existence of hatred for being goth to being gay or black isn't.

Goths are mostly a bunch of middle class kids that have had no worse problem in life than people making fun of how they look. However it doesn't change the fact that they attract anything from weird looks to actual physical violence for no other reason than that they are a fringe normative minority, and this little discussion only began with the assertion that "people hate goths, people hate emos, people hate homosexuals, rockers, hippies, racial groups, it's a part of life" which is true.

Still Jack · 06-21-2009, 11:58 PM

I think it's just safe to say that "People hate!".

zerademark · 06-22-2009, 02:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

"people hate goths, people hate emos, people hate homosexuals, rockers, hippies, racial groups, it's a part of life" which is true.

I think its safe to assume that they hate everything. That is the nature of mankind, to hate and supress others who aren't like them. And if everyone around them are exactly like them, then they'll find something to differentate. Human nature.

JCC · 06-22-2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Actually, comparing being goth to being gay or black is fucking stupid. Of course it's wrong to judge someone for how they dress-- no one is disputing that-- but to allege that goths face the same hardships that gay and black individuals face is absurd.
Are there any laws preventing goths from getting married to other goths? Is it policy that one musn't mention to one's comrades in the military, "oh, I'm a goth"? Have Goths ever suffered an injustice as tremendous as slavery or Apartheid? How many people are victims of violent crimes because of their subcultural affiliation, compared to those who are so because of their race or sexual orientation? To be fair, there aren't really many goths in the places where bigotry is most thoroughly institutionalized, but that's not a coincidence.
Maybe Raveanya lives in a town in which skinny girls wearing fishnets are conceived of as drug-peddling, gun-toting ape-people, and African-Americans are able to avoid any bigotry by dressing 'corporate black'-- I doubt it, but if so, bless her for her bravery.

All they pointed out was the existence of the hatred, they didn't make any comparisons of the severity.

Mike Rose · 07-23-2009, 03:12 AM

The way I see it, by hating another minority doesn't make you a better person, then those who hate you for being a goth.
I believe in giving others respect for their opinions and their ways, and I would exspect no less from others toward me.
Those who don't respect me for what I am, will have no respect from me, but that doesn't mean I hate anyone myself, I believe in giving anyone a chance until clearly there is no respect in between, back and forth.
All in all, be openminded isn't that why we craved goth in the first place? Respect?

Mike Rose · 07-23-2009, 05:26 AM

To give an idea about hate for others, even your best friend.
Watch the "Xena the Warrior Princess" chapter where Xena and Gabriel argue about the nature about "hope" Gabriels daughter, where hope kills "solan" Xenas son. (Comes in two parts)
Hope that thumbs things up about what I think.
I however are by no means perfect, but I do my best, hence my tatoo on my left shoulder: "No Rose Without Thorns"

Still Jack · 07-23-2009, 06:30 AM

You, are incredibly annoying...