Magick is legit

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Will comment on this because it's an open goal;

http://www.esotericarchives.com/juratus/juratus.htm

Thats a really terrible website, by the way. But it does seem to admit that Dee had the only copy that is considered old, some of those references are only books that reference to it or contain alleged excerpts, again making the Necronomicon allegory correct, and most copies didn't pop up until hundreds of years later.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Saya

My university library has tons of quack books. Sometimes I'm surprised they carry it at all, but they do. Because its in a library doesn't mean its a valid academic source. I've read a lot of books on the subject, and a lot of people claim things that they cannot prove.

I don't really want to discuss something that doesn't have any merit. All I've been doing is saying there isn't the history you like to claim there is.

I should add that Yates isn't an idiot, but has a broader definition of magic than you do, again, ALCHEMY AND ASTROLOGY WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. Natural magic dominated any "high" magic tradition.

First book is about folk magic which you say doesn't really exist anymore and isn't want your'e talking about. And it is mostly the superstitious stuff and midwives and healers made the majority until Spiritualism when you could make a living off of being a medium.

The second book seems to be about how perverted satanic witches are, doesn't seem to be academic, is out of print and written in the sixties. I also have a book from the seventies or eighties that says the same thing about Wicca being a sex cult.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I should add that Yates isn't an idiot, but has a broader definition of magic than you do, again, ALCHEMY AND ASTROLOGY WAS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. Natural magic dominated any "high" magic tradition.

I spewed out that magic vs religion definition earlier in the thread, I think to distinguish magicians from priests, but when I made the thread I certainly had alchemy and astrology and associated practices in mind. You made me muddle my words a bit, well done. At the same time though invocations are something else and I'm throwing them in the 'probably legit' bundle.

Originally Posted by Saya

First book is about folk magic which you say doesn't really exist anymore and isn't want your'e talking about. And it is mostly the superstitious stuff and midwives and healers made the majority until Spiritualism when you could make a living off of being a medium.

Indeed.

Originally Posted by Saya

The second book seems to be about how perverted satanic witches are, doesn't seem to be academic, is out of print and written in the sixties. I also have a book from the seventies or eighties that says the same thing about Wicca being a sex cult.

It's more about how perverted the inquisitors were (seriously the witch hunts have got to be one of the most retardedly fucked things humanity has ever done). It examines a variety of historical documents and comes to the conclusion that the witch craze was a mixture of anachronistic local traditions, mental illness and the collective imagination. I forget, point is there were practitioners of folk magic and they were often persecuted and misunderstood and the ones that weren't probably failed to make the records much (even though there were a lot of records of people who probably made them for other reasons).

[Elystan]

Although alchemy and astrology were and are also kind of allegorical languages.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

I spewed out that magic vs religion definition earlier in the thread, I think to distinguish magicians from priests, but when I made the thread I certainly had alchemy and astrology and associated practices in mind. You made me muddle my words a bit, well done. At the same time though invocations are something else and I'm throwing them in the 'probably legit' bundle.

So what are you trying to say? That chaos magicians are trying to talk to angels or turn lead into gold?

It's more about how perverted the inquisitors were (seriously the witch hunts have got to be one of the most retardedly fucked things humanity has ever done). It examines a variety of historical documents and comes to the conclusion that the witch craze was a mixture of anachronistic local traditions, mental illness and the collective imagination. I forget, point is there were practitioners of folk magic and they were often persecuted and misunderstood and the ones that weren't probably failed to make the records much (even though there were a lot of records of people who probably made them for other reasons).

They actually weren't as prosecuted as one would think, daily rural life anyway relied heavily on healers and midwives. For the witch hunts the victims more times than not had nothing really to do with magic. If you were caught outside at night alone looking suspicious you could get burned, and it was mostly targeted towards women. One town in Germany, once the craze had ended, had only two women left. I doubt the rest were all wart healers. The Malleus Maleficarum particularly singles out women, who being more weak and child like than men, are susceptible to being seduced by the devil. So if you had a dick and knew how to use herbs, you'd be fine.

[ape descendant]

Instead of continuing with snark and sarcasm, I figure I'll level with ya.

I used to practice magic, and I considered myself a pagan and witch for several years. The change came when I realized that it was as silly for me to expect some one to believe in magick as it is for a christian to expect every one else to share their beliefs in things like hell and faith healing.

After a while, I had to ask myself why I would believe in things that I would not expect a stranger of different belief to take seriously and believe.

So, I used the scientific method to test my beliefs. I set up tests, controls and put my spells, divinations and incantations to the test. They did not have consistent results.

After a fuck ton of reading and learning and critical thinking, I came to realize that I had gone from a mode of thinking that allowed me to believe in supernatural things for so long, to a more rational way of seeing the world.

It was rather painful to realize that I had wasted so much of my life on wishful and magical thinking, that so much of my self-image and esteem had been intricately tied in with my beliefs. I felt the need to take down my altar, put away my hand made staffs, wands, talismans, and various other trinkets.

After a period of mourning, I came to understand that the time I spent studying myths, meditation and magic wasn't entirely wasted, instead, they had created an interesting insight into the human experience that goes beyond any single religion or story. I came to understand the power of ritual and rite in the human mind, even though they could not directly affect events outside of an individual person.

Now that I've come to rely on rationality more and magical thinking less, I have noticed a concrete change in my ability to face and solve problems, see through conflicts and think more freely.

I am not set against magick, gods or pixies. I would be perfectly willing to change my mind, should any of these things be proven in a rational, scientific manner. But until then, I find it rather pointless to believe in things for which there is no real, testable evidence.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

So what are you trying to say? That chaos magicians are trying to talk to angels or turn lead into gold?

Don't tell me you aren't familiar with the distinction between spiritual alchemy and proto-chemistry? Chemical wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz? No?

And yeah some Chaos magicians are probably trying to work with an intelligence external to their own consciousness, sure. There are a shitton of different schools of occultism out there, some people just straight up study the more interesting parts of astrology and spiritual alchemy.

Originally Posted by Saya

They actually weren't as prosecuted as one would think, daily rural life anyway relied heavily on healers and midwives. For the witch hunts the victims more times than not had nothing really to do with magic. If you were caught outside at night alone looking suspicious you could get burned, and it was mostly targeted towards women. One town in Germany, once the craze had ended, had only two women left. I doubt the rest were all wart healers. The Malleus Maleficarum particularly singles out women, who being more weak and child like than men, are susceptible to being seduced by the devil. So if you had a dick and knew how to use herbs, you'd be fine.

Yeah like I say most of the tried 'witches' weren't but there were also a few who were.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I came to understand the power of ritual and rite in the human mind, even though they could not directly affect events outside of an individual person.

That's where I was intending to take this.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Don't tell me you aren't familiar with the distinction between spiritual alchemy and proto-chemistry? Chemical wedding of Christian Rosenkreutz? No?

And yeah some Chaos magicians are probably trying to work with an intelligence external to their own consciousness, sure. There are a shitton of different schools of occultism out there, some people just straight up study the more interesting parts of astrology and spiritual alchemy.

But that isn't magic to you, is it? There was a time where the distinction between science and magical thinking was blurry, but once the distinction was made science was very quick to turn on certain elements. I doubt what occultists do is play around with home chemistry sets: The Alchemist Edition though.

I did astrology too. I know its not the horoscope shit but a lot of it relies on generalizations. Or occasionally jarringly way too specific, like the moon was in the house of Pisces for when I was born so it said I'm super sensitive and likely to become an alcoholic or drug addict. Then went on to say "Pluto was in the house of Scorpio, your generation goes against tradition at times..." Nooooo? Wait, go back to that about me being an alcoholic?

Yeah like I say most of the tried 'witches' weren't but there were also a few who were.

Haha, I just checked on Malleus Maleficarum on Wikipedia to double check and it says it was influenced by humanism and Neo-Platoism. Is that the great heritage of European "witches"? "If men do it its fine, if women do it, they deserve to die".

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Elystan

That's where I was intending to take this.

Perhaps you should have opened with it. So far the general feeling I've gotten from this thread is that you have been defending the idea that change in reality can be brought about by will alone. That idea is what I find to be false.

[Elystan]

Bringing out the Jung

Originally Posted by Saya

But that isn't magic to you, is it? There was a time where the distinction between science and magical thinking was blurry, but once the distinction was made science was very quick to turn on certain elements. I doubt what occultists do is play around with home chemistry sets: The Alchemist Edition though.

Well I'm going to say theurgy is a form of magic, which can be seen as analogous to the individuation process in Jungian psychology. Alchemy in particular was according to the man himself this very thing, but by extension this can apply to other broadly magical practices like qabala.

Originally Posted by Saya

I did astrology too. I know its not the horoscope shit but a lot of it relies on generalizations. Or occasionally jarringly way too specific, like the moon was in the house of Pisces for when I was born so it said I'm super sensitive and likely to become an alcoholic or drug addict. Then went on to say "Pluto was in the house of Scorpio, your generation goes against tradition at times..." Nooooo? Wait, go back to that about me being an alcoholic?

Ever read Ficino's book of life? There's some element of astral divination going on but much of it reads more like a description of a symbolic language for discussing psychology. You know, Jungian.

Originally Posted by Saya

Haha, I just checked on Malleus Maleficarum on Wikipedia to double check and it says it was influenced by humanism and Neo-Platoism. Is that the great heritage of European "witches"? "If men do it its fine, if women do it, they deserve to die".

Yeah the witch hunts are the worst.

[Saya]

Wait, wait wait. You know Jung was a quack, right?

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Perhaps you should have opened with it. So far the general feeling I've gotten from this thread is that you have been defending the idea that change in reality can be brought about by will alone. That idea is what I find to be false.

Sure it can, otherwise it's not will.

It pains me to say this but I don't mean that you can throw fireballs or even find a lost key.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by saya

wait, wait wait. You know jung was a quack, right?

12345678

[Saya]

So why bring him up? "Hey, this severely mentally ill, misogynistic asshole quack said some things about magic that I think deserves some looking into?"

[Elystan]

I'll get to the point; things I see as potentially useful aspects of magical practice:

Temporary self induced psychosis; it's a trip, man

Symbolic representation of ideas and totemic magic as a sort of metaprogramming kind of deal

Anchoring and focusing yourself by way of ritual

Placebo effect for anything social (which let's be real is all most people care about most of the time)

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

So why bring him up? "Hey, this severely mentally ill, misogynistic asshole quack said some things about magic that I think deserves some looking into?"

I like Jung. I realise his shit's unscientific but it's really compelling.

[Saya]

Its not just unscientific. You can appreciate some of his psychology stuff as historically important, a ton of stuff was just looney.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

Its not just unscientific. You can appreciate some of his psychology stuff as historically important, a ton of stuff was just looney.

I like to think of him as a modern age mystic. A lot of his stuff is about working religious ideas into a non-supernatural framework. You just replace the spirit world with the subterranean unconscious, the striving for oneness with individuation, gods with archetypes, etc. There's really no way to prove that there isn't some kind of subconscious at work somewhere and let's just say I prefer him to Freud.

[Saya]

Uh, the burden of proof isn't on the people who say it isn't true, its on the people who say it IS true. Lack of proof doesn't mean something is real. Or else I challenge you that unless you can disprove that I'm not sitting next to a unicorn, than I am.

And the dude was legitimately mentally ill and a lot of his religious stuff came from that. He believed there was a little man living inside of him. He had at least two significant mental breakdowns in his lifetime. He thought little girls wanted to fuck their fathers.

[Grausamkeit]

Why don't people know when to give up? Saya's got you dead-to-rights, dude.

[Elystan]

I didn't put the burden of proof on you. He had some fairly compelling but unfalsifiable ideas. Not everything can be understood scientifically.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

Why don't people know when to give up? Saya's got you dead-to-rights, dude.

I only just got to the point.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

I didn't put the burden of proof on you. He had some fairly compelling but unfalsifiable ideas. Not everything can be understood scientifically.

That doesn't mean anything goes. And all evidence points to "hey, this guy was seriously mentally ill and never got proper treatment."

I can't prove there wasn't a little man living inside of him. But given how much he was wrong about, and how he did go insane, I can pretty safely assume it was him being crazy again.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Elystan

I didn't put the burden of proof on you. He had some fairly compelling but unfalsifiable ideas. Not everything can be understood scientifically.

I do not think you know what science is. Hell, by that statement, I don't even think you've actually read Jung.