Magick is legit

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

Saya, you are such a godamned bigot with your logic! Hoe do you try to refute people's claims with science!

*I love you*

Nothing in this thread resembles science. Hope this helps.

[Beowulf]

Originally Posted by Grausamkeit

Saya, how dare you not believe in such sacred orders as The Buggering Hedgehogs!

Wolfie, you`ve just made me spit my drink across the room, that is funny !!!.

[Grausamkeit]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Nothing in this thread resembles science. Hope this helps.

Least of all what you've been talking about. Hope that helps.

There's nothing wrong or negative about being an Atheist. Many of us lead happy, fulfilling lives without choosing to become slaves to some invisible person in the sky.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

When you try and make friends do you strictly use only methods that you find in peer reviewed scientific journals? How about if you're seeking inspiration for a poem or a piece of artwork, or psyching yourself up for a big test or tournament?

You come across so anal I'm almost expecting a 'yes' here.

You do know I am a religious person, right? And I had a phase in high school where I read Tarot cards and practiced "witchcraft". It was bullshit, it does nothing, and like most Western neopaganism it just had to do with my rebellion from the Christian norm. The neopagan movement is a reactionary movement.

Which is both hilarious and awesome, but ceremonial magic, which consists mostly of spinning in circles spouting gibberish in smokey rooms, is more popular.

And a pretty odd idea about how people used to practice religion.

Whatever, that does nothing to devalue the point I made that not everybody who practices magic can be painted with your broad brush "nothing to do with ancient traditions" rant.

So they DO sacrifice animals and people and smear menstrual blood on things?

Where I'm from the whole alternative religion scene and the LGBTQ/polyamorous scene are basically the same scene.

Sort of the same here, except they're pretty narrow minded. Like think Christianity is the most evil thing to ever happen to the world, ignore the things they don't like about paganism and some were the most biphobic people I ever met.

Yah, when I went to Imbolc the "ritual co ordinator" was a lazy POS and hadn't co-ordinated any rituals so we had a guy literally make up a guided meditation on the spot. It was quite good though. Anyway without those guys I'd have been sitting in my room arguing with fools on the internet but instead I got a day out in the woods, a shared experience with a small community and enough mead that I proclaimed myself the goblin king. I'm not gonna hate.

Just because something gets you out of the house once in a while doesn't mean it isn't silly. I'm sure LARPers get plenty of exercise but its still silly.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

But people born into the void where Christianity once grew should be dour atheists?

I'm not atheist dude, I belong to a religion that is notorious for being appropriated. Making up what you wish your ancestors did and then saying its the most authentic spiritual practice evar and claim that it was persecuted for centuries and now you're honoring your ancestors by practicing this thing you just made up is stupid and silly, is what I'm saying. Wishing so bad you were Harry Potter that you try really hard to be a real wizard is pretty silly.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Saw my sister in persecution getting flamed for this, so I thought I'd start a thread. I guess I should put a tl;dr in the OP? Not really my style. Q&A gogogo

I'm confused. What, exactly, were you trying to make a point of discussion on? The legitimacy of it as a religion? The validity of it as being real?

The burden of proof lies upon you, so make a post for your argument, maybe post a compelling link, or something. I really doubt you can encourage structured discussion any other way.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I'm not atheist dude, I belong to a religion that is notorious for being appropriated. Making up what you wish your ancestors did and then saying its the most authentic spiritual practice evar and claim that it was persecuted for centuries and now you're honoring your ancestors by practicing this thing you just made up is stupid and silly, is what I'm saying. Wishing so bad you were Harry Potter that you try really hard to be a real wizard is pretty silly.

You're just casting a stereotype there. Mysticism, esoteric religion, and occultism both in christian and non-christian forms have been practiced in europe since time immemorial, and not everyone engaged in magical practise and research is a teenage wiccan.

Curious as to which religion you identify yourself with?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

You're just casting a stereotype there. Mysticism, esoteric religion, and occultism both in christian and non-christian forms have been practiced in europe since time immemorial, and not everyone engaged in magical practise and research is a teenage wiccan.

Curious as to which religion you identify yourself with?

mysticism isn't what you think, its any religion that values experience over dogma. Mystic Christians pray and meditate and try to find God. Pagan elements except when it comes to folklore like fairy tales have been thoroughly christianized, practices survive without the original belief, like midwifery.

And guess.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

mysticism isn't what you think, its any religion that values experience over dogma.

So, thelema, chaos magic, hermetism etc?

Originally Posted by Saya

Mystic Christians pray and meditate and try to find God. Pagan elements except when it comes to folklore like fairy tales have been thoroughly christianized, practices survive without the original belief, like midwifery.

Christianity has produced esoteric mystic schools of its own, following Mirandola and Swedenborg for instance. Not sure what pagan elements have to do with anything?

Originally Posted by Saya

And guess.

Something native american?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

So, thelema,

Invented by Crowley in the early 20th century.

chaos magic,

Comes from the 1970s

hermetism etc?

A bit more like it but it was appropriated by Christianity most of the time as proof that the pagans foresaw the coming of Christ, validating their own religion. Like Christmas, it became a Christian thing. Actually, much of Roman and Greek mythology did survive through the years but it seems they were the superheros that Christians would geek over during the Middle Ages, not seriously worship. Things like astrology did become popular, but I hope you're not saying that alchemy is legit or really magick anyway.

Christianity has produced esoteric mystic schools of its own, following Mirandola and Swedenborg for instance. Not sure what pagan elements have to do with anything?

But again, mysticism isn't magick or anything. Sufi Islam and Zen Buddhism are mystic religions but there's nothing really mystical about it.

Something native american?

You're silly.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

A bit more like it but it was appropriated by Christianity most of the time as proof that the pagans foresaw the coming of Christ, validating their own religion. Like Christmas, it became a Christian thing. Actually, much of Roman and Greek mythology did survive through the years but it seems they were the superheros that Christians would geek over during the Middle Ages, not seriously worship. Things like astrology did become popular, but I hope you're not saying that alchemy is legit or really magick anyway.

Mmm not quite. While it was popular during the early part of the Italian renaissance to present occult study as affirming Christianity, by the time you get to Bruno you have Hermes Trismegistus actually being given primacy over Moses. At around the same time you have Mirandola working on a version of Cabala that pays lip service to the inquisition and of course Agrippa and his unabashed ceremonial magic which is essentially just a refined version of the extant traditions which were floating around in the high middle ages. The latter figure in particular became basically the highest authority on magic, and passed on through sources such as Levi provided the body of Mathers' work, which of course had a direct influence on Thelema.

No shit Thelema arose in the 19th century and chaos magick in the 70s. Beliefs and cultural practices change and evolve over time, western esotericism is no exception.

Since you apparently know so much about it why assume that everyone who has anything to do with magic is the fluffy teenage wiccan you used to be?

Originally Posted by Saya

But again, mysticism isn't magick or anything. Sufi Islam and Zen Buddhism are mystic religions but there's nothing really mystical about it.

No, the two are often found interlinked. Take neoplatonism, a philosophy much influencing and influence by hermetism and the gnostics. Plotinus advocated a pure mystical approach, Iamblichlus his successor recommended theurgy which had a lot to do with contemporary forms of magic.

Sure, magic and mysticism aren't precisely the same thing but magic can be part of a mystics toolkit.

Originally Posted by Saya

You're silly.

If it's buddhism then I lol@u

[Kasdeja]

Originally Posted by Elystan

No shit Thelema arose in the 19th century and chaos magick in the 70s. Beliefs and cultural practices change and evolve over time, western esotericism is no exception.

Since you apparently know so much about it why assume that everyone who has anything to do with magic is the fluffy teenage wiccan you used to be?


Sure, magic and mysticism aren't precisely the same thing but magic can be part of a mystics toolkit.

If it's buddhism then I lol@u

I like the part about the fluffy teenage wiccan. Also, majick can stand alone or be part of a toolkit.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

Mmm not quite. While it was popular during the early part of the Italian renaissance to present occult study as affirming Christianity, by the time you get to Bruno you have Hermes Trismegistus actually being given primacy over Moses. At around the same time you have Mirandola working on a version of Cabala that pays lip service to the inquisition and of course Agrippa and his unabashed ceremonial magic which is essentially just a refined version of the extant traditions which were floating around in the high middle ages. The latter figure in particular became basically the highest authority on magic, and passed on through sources such as Levi provided the body of Mathers' work, which of course had a direct influence on Thelema.

No shit Thelema arose in the 19th century and chaos magick in the 70s. Beliefs and cultural practices change and evolve over time, western esotericism is no exception.

Since you apparently know so much about it why assume that everyone who has anything to do with magic is the fluffy teenage wiccan you used to be?

I was never Wiccan. And medieval "magic" was insanely different from Thelema and chaos magic. I don't see kids in their basements trying to turn lead into gold. Christian "magic" doesn't survive well into modern times, there's a new things that burying a statue of St. Joseph on your property will help you sell it. Its a new tradition that plays on a belief that is already there and is very old, Joseph looks out for the home. There are prayers that if a pagan did it they would call it "magic", like asking St. Christopher helping someone find something. A pagan would "summon" Hecate to find shit and call it magick. It isn't Christian history that they are trying to reclaim, its ancient religions that they have no real idea what its about. Its not something that survived through the years, it was something that was appropriated and turned into something totally diffent. Alchemy and astrology is the reason why kids might spin around in circles calling on the goddess within? Is this what you're trying to say?

No, the two are often found interlinked. Take neoplatonism, a philosophy much influencing and influence by hermetism and the gnostics. Plotinus advocated a pure mystical approach, Iamblichlus his successor recommended theurgy which had a lot to do with contemporary forms of magic.

Mysticism has generally been liberal enough to not burn at the stake anything heretical. Because it tolerates witchcraft doesn't mean that it is witchcraft.

Sure, magic and mysticism aren't precisely the same thing but magic can be part of a mystics toolkit.

Somehow I can't picture Alyosha turning to witchcraft to try and find his father's murderer. Mysticism is such a broad term that pretty much means that a a religion labeled "mystic" is liberal enough to allow variation, it doesn't mean it becomes the variation or is defined by it.

If it's buddhism then I lol@u

Mu.

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

I was never Wiccan. And medieval "magic" was insanely different from Thelema and chaos magic. I don't see kids in their basements trying to turn lead into gold. Christian "magic" doesn't survive well into modern times, there's a new things that burying a statue of St. Joseph on your property will help you sell it. Its a new tradition that plays on a belief that is already there and is very old, Joseph looks out for the home. There are prayers that if a pagan did it they would call it "magic", like asking St. Christopher helping someone find something. A pagan would "summon" Hecate to find shit and call it magick. It isn't Christian history that they are trying to reclaim, its ancient religions that they have no real idea what its about. Its not something that survived through the years, it was something that was appropriated and turned into something totally diffent. Alchemy and astrology is the reason why kids might spin around in circles calling on the goddess within? Is this what you're trying to say?

You need to take more care to in separating the strands. For example, the mystical Qabbala is clearly derived from if not the christian Cabala then at least the same source. Modern forms of magic can clearly trace their influences to medieval, renaissance and early modern practices which always existed alongside the christian mainstream, some authors taking more care than others to pay lip service to established dogma. I gave plenty of examples in my last post. It's not a case of suddenly deciding to "reclaim" something that stopped thousands of years ago.

A word on the distinction of magic and prayer; most definitions take that prayer is supplication to a god or spirit, where something is requested and something may be offered in return, whereas a magical ceremony is one in which the magician demands or cajoles the spirit into doing his bidding, often using magic words or the names of higher beings to bind the spirit to his will. The former certainly exists in christianity, the latter usually does not.

As to alchemy and astrology; again these are practices associated with but distinct from ceremonial magic proper, the latter thing being what kids spinning in their basements are doing. The chemistry part of alchemy has clearly delineated itself, but alchemy was also an extended metaphor for spiritual attainment. Similarly astrology was about more than horoscopes in the paper, it was a whole system of classifying various personalities, moods and the things which influenced them.

Originally Posted by Saya

Mysticism has generally been liberal enough to not burn at the stake anything heretical. Because it tolerates witchcraft doesn't mean that it is witchcraft.

Nobody said it was witchcraft. When did I use the word witchcraft? Would you like me to explain the distinction between high magic and low magic or can you do that yourself? I can provide discourses on the history of either, if you're getting them confused.

Originally Posted by Saya

Somehow I can't picture Alyosha turning to witchcraft to try and find his father's murderer. Mysticism is such a broad term that pretty much means that a a religion labeled "mystic" is liberal enough to allow variation, it doesn't mean it becomes the variation or is defined by it.

I never got past like part four, Alyosha just annoyed me. He was too much a carbon copy of Myshkin but without a Nastasia to give him hell. Sure, someone else had the epilepsy in that story, but still, I might be wrong but the whole 'modern age christ' thing was a neat idea the first time but boring at the second call. I'm told Demons isn't like this. Wouldn't have jumped on either as a first example of a mystic.

Originally Posted by Saya

Mu.

Is that a fancy way of saying nihilism or are you telling me no in chinese?

By process of tedious elimination.. *sigh*.. taoism?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Elystan

You need to take more care to in separating the strands. For example, the mystical Qabbala is clearly derived from if not the christian Cabala then at least the same source. Modern forms of magic can clearly trace their influences to medieval, renaissance and early modern practices which always existed alongside the christian mainstream, some authors taking more care than others to pay lip service to established dogma. I gave plenty of examples in my last post. It's not a case of suddenly deciding to "reclaim" something that stopped thousands of years ago.

A word on the distinction of magic and prayer; most definitions take that prayer is supplication to a god or spirit, where something is requested and something may be offered in return, whereas a magical ceremony is one in which the magician demands or cajoles the spirit into doing his bidding, often using magic words or the names of higher beings to bind the spirit to his will. The former certainly exists in christianity, the latter usually does not.

So, ceremonial magic hasn't been prominent at all. Even Kabbalah rests on asking, not demanding. Its all fancy prayer.

Again, what does that have to do with neopagans trying to revive pre-Christian traditions? So no, it didn't just evolve naturally from Christian or Jewish its-not-even-magic-by-my-definition.

As to alchemy and astrology; again these are practices associated with but distinct from ceremonial magic proper, the latter thing being what kids spinning in their basements are doing. The chemistry part of alchemy has clearly delineated itself, but alchemy was also an extended metaphor for spiritual attainment. Similarly astrology was about more than horoscopes in the paper, it was a whole system of classifying various personalities, moods and the things which influenced them.

And that is what Hermetics were most concerned about, astrology and alchemy. So by your definition, they weren't practicing magic?

Nobody said it was witchcraft. When did I use the word witchcraft? Would you like me to explain the distinction between high magic and low magic or can you do that yourself? I can provide discourses on the history of either, if you're getting them confused.

I say "witchcraft". If you give your widdershuns spinning different hierarchies, I don't really give a fuck.

I never got past like part four, Alyosha just annoyed me. He was too much a carbon copy of Myshkin but without a Nastasia to give him hell. Sure, someone else had the epilepsy in that story, but still, I might be wrong but the whole 'modern age christ' thing was a neat idea the first time but boring at the second call. I'm told Demons isn't like this. Wouldn't have jumped on either as a first example of a mystic.

Poor taste in literature as well. Tsk tsk.

Is that a fancy way of saying nihilism or are you telling me no in chinese?

By process of tedious elimination.. *sigh*.. taoism?

You're really bad at this.

[Ben Lahnger]

Saya, are you having fun with this? Because that's the only compelling reason I can see for you continuing to debate this gainsaying fool and his poorly rationalized advocacy of superstition.

[Grausamkeit]

I'm quite enjoying watching Saya spank him.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Saya, are you having fun with this? Because that's the only compelling reason I can see for you continuing to debate this gainsaying fool and his poorly rationalized advocacy of superstition.

Of course! I took a class last semester where we learned about neopaganism, and how its pretty much just a backlash against Christianity.

I remember reading a book by Judika Illes where she said magic is the tool of the oppressed, if you have no social or political power you want to believe that you have some kind of spiritual power. That might be true when you look at the survival of Voodoo during slavery and the Haitian revolution (and even in Haiti today), and somewhat true when women became mediums (most of the time they were rich women who didn't have to work though) but Western white magic for the last two centuries at least have been the hobbies of the bored and the privileged who want attention and feel special. Actually that is also true of medieval magic aside from general folklore and superstitions (are you a witch if you throw salt over your shoulder when you spill it?). "Magic" (which apparently alchemy and astrology doesn't count so it was way rarer than you think) was for the elite and the educated who could afford to waste time and money on it. Those accused of being witches in the burning times were mostly women who were self sufficient or had occupations frowned upon, like healing women and midwives, not actual pagans.

[Solumina]

Earlier in this thread I was sad that I knew there would be no*DESPANAN SMASH* but this is rather amusing in its own right.

[Saya]

Hey Solumina, you should totes join my religion that says if you believe hard enough something will come true because you're totally powerful like that. Its technically only forty years old, but since John Dee tried to talk to angels that totally means its technically far older.

[Solumina]

Dude, that sounds wicked awesome!

[Spooky Spencer]

Originally Posted by Saya

Hey Solumina, you should totes join my religion that says if you believe hard enough something will come true because you're totally powerful like that. Its technically only forty years old, but since John Dee tried to talk to angels that totally means its technically far older.

You don't have to shave your head, wear a tie, or hang out at airports with a tambourine, do you?

[Solumina]

You don't have to, it's more of a recommendation.

[Spooky Spencer]

Hey, we can kill two threads with one post!

Elystan, can't you just cast a spell so that your dream girl goes to the concert with you?

[Elystan]

Originally Posted by Saya

So, ceremonial magic hasn't been prominent at all. Even Kabbalah rests on asking, not demanding. Its all fancy prayer.

Take a look at some of the incantations in the lesser key of solomon. The magician begins with a prayer or supplication to god, and then in the ritual itself he invokes the names of god to command the spirit in question.

But then that's solomonic invocation magic rather than Qabala, which is something else.

Originally Posted by Saya

Again, what does that have to do with neopagans trying to revive pre-Christian traditions? So no, it didn't just evolve naturally from Christian or Jewish its-not-even-magic-by-my-definition.

I don't know you were the one who started talking about neopagans.

Originally Posted by Saya

And that is what Hermetics were most concerned about, astrology and alchemy. So by your definition, they weren't practicing magic?

Except when you actually look at the people who were a part of the hermetic tradition you see that cabala and ceremonial magic were inseparable from their theories of alchemy and astrology.

Originally Posted by Saya

I say "witchcraft". If you give your widdershuns spinning different hierarchies, I don't really give a fuck.

But it's not even the same thing. A court summoner or an otherwise wealthy occultist did entirely different things socially and intellectually to the local wise folk who would be handing out remedies or divining for lost sheep. For a start, the former tradition has been preserved.

Originally Posted by Saya

Poor taste in literature as well. Tsk tsk.

Dostoevsky gets really old by about the fifth book

Originally Posted by Saya

You're really bad at this.

Go on then tell me I give up.