Marquis De Sade.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 02-10-2007, 05:11 PM

Yet another French Auhtor, though known more as a pervert, Marquis De Sade, to me, was a misunderstood literary genius. I've always thought of him as a Gothic Novelist, due to the descriptions of castles, usage of darkness and impending doom. Without Sade, The Goth scene would not have as much elements of fashion as it does now (Sadism, Bondage, all coming from his sickly sweet mind.) Yes, I know, he 'abused' protitutes and perhaps did something to little boys that's unmentionable yet I feel this was, other than his literary work, a form of expression. He wrote most of his works in prison, with a sense of remorse. Even before he published his work, he was always quite artistic. When discussing Sade with a friend of mine, she mentioned that "when you're artisic, you're a bit perverse. Your mind wonders into sexuality as it would with creativity," and she was right. De Sade, I think, is a perfect example of this but soley in my viewpoints. Please share your opinions on his work. For those of you who have not read anything of his, I reccomend "Justine" first.

Vyusher · 02-10-2007, 07:12 PM

His word usage is masterful, although his plotlines, if they may even be said to exist, are rarely more than skeletons for his ideas and psychosexual explorations. Very similar to the "novels" of Ayn Rand (only de Sade is not even nigh on half the asshole Rand was on her nicest day). I wouldn't award the title of genius upon him, but he was easily a visionary and a keen creative mind with a knack for words.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-10-2007, 07:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyusher

His word usage is masterful, although his plotlines, if they may even be said to exist, are rarely more than skeletons for his ideas and psychosexual explorations.

That reminds me of Oscar Wilde to some extent. I'm more intrigued by Sade now.

Vyusher · 02-10-2007, 08:04 PM

Oscar Wilde's plots are much, much more clever than this. The Importance. . . is actually a pretty ingenious, if far from deep, plot. The level of coincidence executed for comedic purposes (Wilde was mocking aesthetics, the elite, and the playwriting traditions of the time) is difficult to achieve.
EDIT: If you're able, I'd reccomend de Sade in French. Some word play is lost in translation, I believe. This may be elitism with no factual basis, however.

Godslayer Jillian · 02-10-2007, 11:13 PM

I absolutely understand. There's a difference in reading The Little Prince than Le Petit Prince; reading Don Quixote than Las Aventuras de Don Quijote de la Mancha.
I'm even planning to learn Arabic in college to read the Koran.
Now, I just need a recommendation of one of his books for de Sade to move in my reading list. Any suggestion?

Vyvian Blackthorne · 02-11-2007, 08:40 AM

Yes, De Sade was more of a visionary. As for his plotlines, he didn't really have plotlines, but following events that involved what he fetished. For example, 'The 120 days of Sodom' was written as if it were a diary by the Duke himself. His plotlines are perverse, but they're genius to me. I find authenticy in his works. Oh by the way, I LOVE Oscar Wilde. I forgot to mention that.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 02-11-2007, 08:49 AM

List of De Sade's books (*=a masterpiece)
Justine, or The Misfortunes of Virtue*
Juillete*
Crimes of Passion?
120 days of Sodom

Vyusher · 02-11-2007, 04:10 PM

I'd agree with that assessment entirely.
I guess I could see what you mean; the plotlines work with the themes of the story.

emeraldlonewoulf · 02-12-2007, 02:15 AM

Like most, I knew of him as the BDSM guy, but haven't read any of his work. Now I'm intrigued. Have you seen any of his works published in both languages, like each language on opposing pages?

Vyvian Blackthorne · 02-14-2007, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Like most, I knew of him as the BDSM guy,

LoL. Too bad that how's he often referred to. I wish he was known more as an author than a pervert. In fact, in the dictionary under biographies it listed his occupation only as a (and I quote): "Soilder and Pervert"

Encaitare · 02-14-2007, 08:13 PM

Definitely check out "Dialogue between a Priest and a Dying Man". It's only 7 pages long, but it's a great read. I think you'll like it especially, Jillian.

Read it here: http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a0293.pdf

Vyvian Blackthorne · 03-23-2007, 05:55 PM

I still believe that De Sade's writing was a strong reflection on his philosophy, does anyone else see the marks of exatensialism in his work? Obviously, I'm not the first to say this.

djaeternum · 05-02-2007, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

I still believe that De Sade's writing was a strong reflection on his philosophy, does anyone else see the marks of exatensialism in his work? Obviously, I'm not the first to say this.

Existentialism, not really. I don't see that he drives forth the idea that inidividual, human choice is the only thing.

He certainly was a big Republican (note the capitalization). In fact, probably his best work is Philosophy in the Bedroom, sometimes Boudoir, depending on the translation. In the middle of it is his tract "One more effort Frenchmen, if you would be Republicans." which sort of sets out his political program. Additionally, the rest of the work presents his philosophy at various points or another, touching on everything from the deity to the family. It's still light on the plot side, like any pornographic texts. But, when reading Sade, you get the impression that he's compelled to write this, and that perhaps sex has become as banal for him as the sexual tableaux become for you in reading them.

Still, the interesting thing is that while Sade might be considered the father of transgressionary literature (particularly see Georges Bataille for more of the same, but with better plot and commentary), he can't escape the mental framework that he's transgressing. For all the ink he spills attacking the Christian moral framework, he's completely shackled to its language and thought structure.

Vyvian Blackthorne · 05-02-2007, 06:55 PM

Gothta say I disagree. De Sade clearly displays in his work that he is a libtertine, not a republican. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't refer to the political party. By exatensialism, I should have specified, I was refferring to Simone's article 'Must we burn Sade?' in which she does not accuse, but rather cites him as a radical figure. How could he not be considered the father of transgressive literature? Perhaps father is an improper work to describe transgressive literature, but a pillar.

djaeternum · 05-02-2007, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vyvian Blackthorne

Gothta say I disagree. De Sade clearly displays in his work that he is a libtertine, not a republican. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't refer to the political party. By exatensialism, I should have specified, I was refferring to Simone's article 'Must we burn Sade?' in which she does not accuse, but rather cites him as a radical figure. How could he not be considered the father of transgressive literature? Perhaps father is an improper work to describe transgressive literature, but a pillar.

Republican in the big 'r' sense, not relating to the political party, but to the idea that government ought to correspond to the will of the citizenry as a whole, and work towards its benefit. He is also a libertine, but this describes his personal behavior, not his political viewpoint. It does spill over, however, such as when he recommended setting up public houses of prostitution for the nation's women to give themselves over to the [men of the] nation. His notions of what laws are appropriate for a Republican society also seem to promote libertinage; such as allowing murder, **** and a host of other violent acts. Of course, he isn't totally egalitarian and thinks there should be certain other brothels reserved for those who have been especially notable in advancing the republic.

While his Republicanism was certainly much more radical than anyone else's in the eighteenth century, I don't think he advances the idea that individuals are the sole choosers and creators of meaning in their lives, which is what existentialism is. Simone de Beauvoir wasn't really a huge existentialist, but she is more well known for her work The Second Sex which kicked off the Feminist movement in the 20th century. But, her article stresses the that Sade is important for exposing certain dynamics of human sociality, especially issues of authority and moral legitimacy. Ultimately, she thinks he confuses power and freedom, resulting in a flawed ethic in her opinion.

And, I don't know that he can be considered the father of transgressionary literature, because he doesn't get out of the moral thought pattern he transgresses against as much as the 20th century transgressionaries do. There is a strong counterargument here, that it's simply an evolution of transgression, and a degree thereof. That is to say, that Sade doesn't see the degree to which he partakes in the system he critiques.

Minyaliel · 05-03-2007, 12:52 PM

I've only read one of his works in full, Philosophy in the Bedroom, and even though he doesn't really have a plotline, I'm rather impressed with the way he manages to explain his philosophical and political views in such a setting. Has anyone else ever done that before him? I don't think so - it's the least likely setting for it. I do not wish to throw myself headlong into the debate about him as a person, but reading his books carefully (and analyzing them) reveals lots both about the time he lived in and other things which I find is absolutely fascinating.