Creationist Scum

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Evolution is taught because it is scientific.
Creationism is not science AT ALL, so it has no place in a science class.

It's the same thing as a scientist coming to your church and teaching about evolution. It's not religion, so it doesn't belong there.

I understand your point, and don't necessarily disagree with you. My point was simply that teachers and education in general should not try to persuade believers that their beliefs are wrong.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

*Snip*
Science classes should not be impressing upon kids that creationism (in the looser sense) can't be true. You simply present the science for what it is, with no commentary on how it reflects upon any religious beliefs that are out there. If the science does happen to contradict some religious belief (and inevitably, it will), that's the problem of the believers. They get zero deference out of "respect" for their beliefs.

This is exactly what I was getting at. Additionally, I think this largely depends on the teacher.

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

*Snip*
If your son has faith in a claim which is demonstrably untrue, he should lose faith in it. If he doesn't have faith in any such claims, then he shouldn't have any problems in science class. If he does, the teacher might be overstepping his bounds. *Snip*

I can can see your point there. However, proving evolution doesn't disprove (again I use the terms loosely) creationism. As previously stated, the bible isn't meant to be taken that literally. True believers would have no problem studying evolution in science class. Though it would indefinitely provoke questions for teachers and parents alike. The teachers should definitely stay out of it. The parents should provide those answers.

I read a story one time, and I am not going to lay claim to whether or not it is true (as it seems far more inspirtational than anything else). This story was about a college professor who was an active Atheist and in his class, for 20 some years tried to persuade all of his students that God could not exist. At the end of the semester, he would say, "If you still believe in God, stand up." For those 20 some years not one student had the courage to stand up to him. He continued, "If God existed, he could stop this chalk from breaking when it hits the ground." Each semester, he dropped the chalk and it broke as he had predicted.
A young freshman had heard the stories about this Professor and had to take his class as a pre-requisite. Each day he prayed that he would have the strength and courage to stand up to the Professor at the end of the semester. Finally, when that day came, the Professor asked his question. Nervously, the young man stood up and had to sustain an unbelievable chastisment from the Professor. The Professor continued, "If God really existed, he would stop this chalk from hitting the ground and breaking." As he dropped the piece of chalk, it rolled off his sleeve, down his pant leg, off his shoe, and hit the ground. The chalk did not break. For 20 some years this never happened, and needless to say, the Professor was astounded, and ran from the classroom, and resigned from his position.

As far as my son goes, I don't mind him being taught evolution in science class because I know him well enough to know that he would not be so easily persuaded that man and science is right and God is wrong. My greatest concern is the teachers like the one in the story.

~~~These are the kinds of teachers that should not be allowed to teach evolution in science class.~~~

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

I'm not trying to. However, I do "have the right" to tell you you're wrong, and if you believe the Bible in anything like a literal sense, I'll do so. Although I guess strictly speaking, I should say that I do have the right to tell you what to believe, and you have the right to tell me to fuck off.

Again, I don't believe the bible is meant to be taken literally and unfortunately there are many that do. If you have the right to tell me that I am wrong, you should then beable to provide me with various matierals that can concretely support the fact that you are right and I am wrong. See, the problem with that is, you can't. Strictly providing information on evolution doesn't proves only half of what I believe, but it can't disprove the other portion of that. And no, I'm not going to tell you to fuck off, because honestly, I have more manners than that. I would more likely say, "We will just have to wait and see in the end."

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Evolution is taught because it is scientific.
Creationism is not science AT ALL, so it has no place in a science class.

It's the same thing as a scientist coming to your church and teaching about evolution. It's not religion, so it doesn't belong there.

Well said. I was about to say something similar.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Evolution is taught because it is scientific.
Creationism is not science AT ALL, so it has no place in a science class.

It's the same thing as a scientist coming to your church and teaching about evolution. It's not religion, so it doesn't belong there.

Well said. I was about to say something similar.

Originally Posted by Aurel

If evolution is going to be taught in science class, there should be an equal teaching of creationism.

Why? "Contrast" is a valid reason for an arts class, not a science class based on facts. The only contrast to Truth is untruth, and untruth has no place in science.

[MitsyMayhem]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Again, I don't believe the bible is meant to be taken literally and unfortunately there are many that do. If you have the right to tell me that I am wrong, you should then beable to provide me with various matierals that can concretely support the fact that you are right and I am wrong. See, the problem with that is, you can't. Strictly providing information on evolution doesn't proves only half of what I believe, but it can't disprove the other portion of that. And no, I'm not going to tell you to fuck off, because honestly, I have more manners than that. I would more likely say, "We will just have to wait and see in the end."

35 post and already ticking me off. You've got major skills.

[HumanePain]

Oops! Sorry for the double post. As long as I am making a third post to apologize, let me add this:

Originally Posted by Auriel

If you have the right to tell me that I am wrong, you should then beable to provide me with various matierals that can concretely support the fact that you are right and I am wrong.

The danger in trying to overlap Faith into the realm of Science, is that now one must accept the complementary logic that Science can now judge Faith.

This can only lead to one conclusion: invalidation of Faith.

The two were never intended to overlap. Trying to do so is the agenda of those who see Faith as supreme over the physical world and the spiritual. It was intended to reign supreme over the spiritual only. God has proven again and again the reward of those who try to change His law into a unified field theory: parents who let their children die, stubbornly refusing to take them to badly needed medical care because they shut their minds and ears to God's direction. Idiots who descend into lion's dens at public zoos to see "IF God will save me".

Faith was intended as a guide to living, not a guide to sub atomic physics or optical plasmionics or even as a way to change His laws of physics. It was written to change the minds of men.

[MegearaErotica]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Oops! Sorry for the double post. As long as I am making a third post to apologize, let me add this:




The danger in trying to overlap Faith into the realm of Science, is that now one must accept the complementary logic that Science can now judge Faith.

This can only lead to one conclusion: invalidation of Faith.

The two were never intended to overlap. Trying to do so is the agenda of those who see Faith as supreme over the physical world and the spiritual. It was intended to reign supreme over the spiritual only. God has proven again and again the reward of those who try to change His law into a unified field theory: parents who let their children die, stubbornly refusing to take them to badly needed medical care because they shut their minds and ears to God's direction. Idiots who descend into lion's dens at public zoos to see "IF God will save me".

Faith was intended as a guide to living, not a guide to sub atomic physics or optical plasmionics or even as a way to change His laws of physics. It was written to change the minds of men.

Hmmm, I've met a married couple who mixed faith and evolution together very well, saying that even though god may have made us, we might have originally looked and been different genetically. They explained that the Christian bible never went into very much detail about if the original humans looked as we do, and could have very well been primative primates. I can't remember how they explained how other issues fit into their views, but I do remember that it sounded like they had thought about these things a very long time and were content with their veiwpoints.

[TheBloodEternity]

Something you guys haven't mentioned (I might have missed it I just skimmed over the posts) is that what creation story would be taught along evolution?
Most religions have creation stories.
What makes Christianity so special?
You can't teach all creation stories, it would turn into a social studies class.

[MegearaErotica]

Originally Posted by TheBloodEternity

Something you guys haven't mentioned (I might have missed it I just skimmed over the posts) is that what creation story would be taught along evolution?
Most religions have creation stories.
What makes Christianity so special?
You can't teach all creation stories, it would turn into a social studies class.

I suppose whichever is the majority or official religion in that specific area. I actually didn't think about that until you posted this. Also, Christianity isn't very special at all. It's a watered down form of Judaism.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by MegearaErotica

Hmmm, I've met a married couple who mixed faith and evolution together very well, saying that even though god may have made us, we might have originally looked and been different genetically. They explained that the Christian bible never went into very much detail about if the original humans looked as we do, and could have very well been primative primates. I can't remember how they explained how other issues fit into their views, but I do remember that it sounded like they had thought about these things a very long time and were content with their veiwpoints.

The problem with that was when we started to be human, we were pretty much as we are today. And we had other members of the homo genus with us, like the Neanderthals, who died out. Our ancestors who looked like a primate weren't human. They are our ancestors in the evolutionary tree. And science says that life began with amino acids combining to make spiraling coils of self-replicating DNA. All life evolved from that. So god didn't even "create" our primitive ancestors, for they had ancestors and their ancestors had ancestors, if God had any had in creation it would have to be with that strand of DNA that went on to make simple one cell organisms, then to multi-cell, and so on and so forth, 3.8 billion years ago. Man is not special because like all other animals we are a result of that evolution.

[MegearaErotica]

Hmmm... I've really got nothing important to say to that because they're not my viewpoints that I was explaining, but I suppose they could think as you say and say that god created the little strand of DNA. It would be a little difficult to explain with the making of the world in seven days idea, but religion, is in the eye of the follower, and they can interperet(SP?) it any way the want to.

[Saya]

And they can, I got no beef with someone who believes in God and evolution at the same time. But one of these things will have to compromise, and since evolution is pretty much indisputable it'll have to be religion. Its just better to teach the kids evolution in its own and they can take that and make up their own minds.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

I understand your point, and don't necessarily disagree with you. My point was simply that teachers and education in general should not try to persuade believers that their beliefs are wrong.

WHAT
THE
FUCK!!

Do you have even a remote idea of what grades are for?
Are you fucking saying that professors shouldn't try to persuade their students into believing in the electron because they might not want to?

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Oops! Sorry for the double post. As long as I am making a third post to apologize, let me add this:




The danger in trying to overlap Faith into the realm of Science, is that now one must accept the complementary logic that Science can now judge Faith.

This can only lead to one conclusion: invalidation of Faith.

The two were never intended to overlap. Trying to do so is the agenda of those who see Faith as supreme over the physical world and the spiritual. It was intended to reign supreme over the spiritual only. God has proven again and again the reward of those who try to change His law into a unified field theory: parents who let their children die, stubbornly refusing to take them to badly needed medical care because they shut their minds and ears to God's direction. Idiots who descend into lion's dens at public zoos to see "IF God will save me".

Faith was intended as a guide to living, not a guide to sub atomic physics or optical plasmionics or even as a way to change His laws of physics. It was written to change the minds of men.

In spite of disagreeing with you on about a trillion points, I find your level headed approach to religion quite refreshing.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

WHAT
THE
FUCK!!

Do you have even a remote idea of what grades are for?
Are you fucking saying that professors shouldn't try to persuade their students into believing in the electron because they might not want to?

*Sighs*
First and foremost you are taking my personal thoughts and trying to compare them to something infinitely less significant. This is not a subject where that can be done.

Again, I will repeat my standpoint, which I think Drake Dun illustrated better than I did:

"Science classes should not be impressing upon kids that creationism (in the looser sense) can't be true. You simply present the science for what it is, with no commentary on how it reflects upon any religious beliefs that are out there."

[JCC]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Again, I don't believe the bible is meant to be taken literally

What gives you that idea?

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

I read a story one time, and I am not going to lay claim to whether or not it is true (as it seems far more inspirtational than anything else).

This is what Snopes is for, although this is one of those cases where you can tell from the content that it's fiction.

http://www.snopes.com/religion/chalk.asp

A pretty funny parody:

http://jp.youtube.com/watch?v=sl3vlgUjadY

As far as my son goes, I don't mind him being taught evolution in science class because I know him well enough to know that he would not be so easily persuaded that man and science is right and God is wrong. My greatest concern is the teachers like the one in the story.

I wish both of you would be persuaded, but we're of an accord that the classroom is not the right place for it. I guess the point I'm trying to get across is that if there is some teacher somewhere using a public classroom as a forum for teaching atheism, the solution is to stop him - not to start teaching creationism as well.

Smart money says that if anything, the trend is the other way around, at least in high schools. I wouldn't be surprised if you there were teachers sneaking atheism into the classroom at the college level, though.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Again, I don't believe the bible is meant to be taken literally and unfortunately there are many that do. If you have the right to tell me that I am wrong, you should then beable to provide me with various matierals that can concretely support the fact that you are right and I am wrong. See, the problem with that is, you can't.

That would depend on exactly what it is that you believe. And yes, if I'm going to make an assertion, I should be prepared to support it. And I am.

All I know right now (I think) is that you believe in some kind of supernatural personality. The case I would make to you is not that this is a demonstrably false belief, but that since there is no evidence in favor of it, it's not the kind of belief you need cluttering up your head. That goes back to what I was saying in my first post in this thread (responding to someone else, not you).

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Saya

The problem with that was when we started to be human, we were pretty much as we are today. And we had other members of the homo genus with us, like the Neanderthals, who died out. Our ancestors who looked like a primate weren't human. They are our ancestors in the evolutionary tree. And science says that life began with amino acids combining to make spiraling coils of self-replicating DNA. All life evolved from that. So god didn't even "create" our primitive ancestors, for they had ancestors and their ancestors had ancestors, if God had any had in creation it would have to be with that strand of DNA that went on to make simple one cell organisms, then to multi-cell, and so on and so forth, 3.8 billion years ago. Man is not special because like all other animals we are a result of that evolution.

The Evil International Atheist Conspiracy wishes to disassociate itself with certain of these claims, but the basic point is right. It didn't start with primates. The evolutionary picture we have is already much more complete than that.

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

In spite of disagreeing with you on about a trillion points, I find your level headed approach to religion quite refreshing.

Thank you. Now if I could just convince two billion Christians...

[Saya]

Humane, have you ever read anything by the poet Rumi? What you said reminded me of "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Saya

Humane, have you ever read anything by the poet Rumi?

Yes, one of my favorite Romantics! Some of his poems could be read with either God or a beloved as the object. A genius.

Originally Posted by Saya

What you said reminded me of "Trust in Allah, but tie your camel."

EXACTLY! God helps those who help themselves.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

"Science classes should not be impressing upon kids that creationism (in the looser sense) can't be true. You simply present the science for what it is, with no commentary on how it reflects upon any religious beliefs that are out there."

That's precisely what they do!

They say--this is how evolution works. It's pretty widely believed, with good reason, that this is how life came to be the way it is today.

They don't say--this is how evolution works. As you see, it's fundamentally different from the idea of "creationism" as explained in the bible. Since evolution is true, obviously creationism is wrong, and if you believe it, you are stupid.

[~~Auriel~~]

http://www.dyeager.org/blog/2008/05/...n-science.html

Science defined:
1. a branch of knowledge or study dealing with a body of facts or truths systematically arranged and showing the operation of general laws: the mathematical sciences.
2. systematic knowledge of the physical or material world gained through observation and experimentation.
3. any of the branches of natural or physical science.
4. systematized knowledge in general.
5. knowledge, as of facts or principles; knowledge gained by systematic study.
6. a particular branch of knowledge.
7. skill, esp. reflecting a precise application of facts or principles; proficiency.

In order for something to be a science it must be able to with stand repeated testing and those tests providing THE SAME RESULTS.
Evolution is in fact not a science, but a THEORY.

With that said, I am honestly sick and tired of you fucking insolent pricks and your fucking attitudes towards me because I believe something different that you. You are not going to persuade me to believe any different no matter how much you want to try to fuck with my head because you get some kind of sick enjoyment out of it.
Why don't you have some fucking respect? It the piece of shits like you that give Goths a bad fucking name.