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Old 02-10-2013, 04:30 PM   #26
Languor
 
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I'm not being bugged by the gender tropes. What.
What's bugging me is that this is all very FUN isn't it? Fun fun fun fun. I think I'm a little too radical for this.
I walked in here and said "I don't know how I feel about this stuff" and that I wondered if it was in effect fighting other feminists as its main goal rather than the actual oppressing class. No one had to agree. I really expected something along the lines of "No, actually. They're using femininity as a tool. They're redefining gender. They're saying their sex belongs to themselves. It's very empowerful." I would have argued with that anyway but it wouldn't have just been derailing me by saying that I said the blog owner's "perspective isn't important just because it is different" from mine. Then I got called privileged and told that I was censoring them.
It's funny but it's also painful because I don't want to be afraid and avoid stating my opinion about anything here because I'll have my damn privilege dissected. It's pretty arrogant and assuming. I didn't tell anyone here anything about me and honestly I have no idea why it should be included in this conversation.
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Old 02-10-2013, 05:01 PM   #27
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Wait, what? I really don't understand this as a reaction to a pretty straightforward question that seemed like a logical followup to your post. I've got no idea where you are coming from.

I don't want anyone here to feel that they cannot express their opinion or entering any discussion here, and I would never attack someone just for joining in a conversation, but that doesn't mean that anyone is going to get treated with kid gloves. Your opinions will be analyzed and challenged. Your personal biases and privileges will not be out of bounds, they are an integral part of social justice discussions. I'm sorry if you don't see that connection and that you felt attacked, that wasn't the intent, bringing up how someone's privilege may be coloring their view is pretty par for the course in these kinds of things, Saya certainly has checked my privilege a fair few times. It's uncomfortable and anger is a pretty normal reaction but you just have to think about it, even if you think she is wrong it is helpful to ponder why it may come across that way to others.
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Old 02-10-2013, 06:10 PM   #28
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And I get privilege checked lots! I was just saying, its unfair to say that victims of x y or z cannot be angry or have violent feelings about what happened. And full disclosure I'm a pretty hippie dippie peace love and understanding person outside of Gnet (I think this place is catharsis for me in some ways) and I normally don't like violence, BUT I just don't think its healthy to keep such feelings pent up when they arise (and lord do I have angry feels when I get felt up and groped and cat called) and its nice to have a place to vent. And play with gender tropes.

And even simple things become more complicated the more you analyze it...
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:12 AM   #29
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Wait, what? I really don't understand this as a reaction to a pretty straightforward question that seemed like a logical followup to your post. I've got no idea where you are coming from.

I don't want anyone here to feel that they cannot express their opinion or entering any discussion here, and I would never attack someone just for joining in a conversation, but that doesn't mean that anyone is going to get treated with kid gloves. Your opinions will be analyzed and challenged. Your personal biases and privileges will not be out of bounds, they are an integral part of social justice discussions. I'm sorry if you don't see that connection and that you felt attacked, that wasn't the intent, bringing up how someone's privilege may be coloring their view is pretty par for the course in these kinds of things, Saya certainly has checked my privilege a fair few times. It's uncomfortable and anger is a pretty normal reaction but you just have to think about it, even if you think she is wrong it is helpful to ponder why it may come across that way to others.
How can you talk about the privilege of someone you don't know anything about? All you know is that I'm female. Any other idea you've gleamed from my words is pure speculation. The only really useful social privileges in a patriarchal society are maleness and whiteness. Economic and class privilege is sometimes awarded to those who own those privileges (or align themselves with people who do).
None of this should have been about me. It's ok for you guys to check each other's privilege because you know each other's privilege.
It's taking the easy way out to say "you don't like something I like because you have privilege".
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Old 02-11-2013, 01:20 AM   #30
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And I get privilege checked lots! I was just saying, its unfair to say that victims of x y or z cannot be angry or have violent feelings about what happened. And full disclosure I'm a pretty hippie dippie peace love and understanding person outside of Gnet (I think this place is catharsis for me in some ways) and I normally don't like violence, BUT I just don't think its healthy to keep such feelings pent up when they arise (and lord do I have angry feels when I get felt up and groped and cat called) and its nice to have a place to vent. And play with gender tropes.

And even simple things become more complicated the more you analyze it...
I'm just going to say it again so that it might stop be being said to me. I don't think women can not be angry or have violent feelings. I don't think they shouldn't be able to express that on the internet. I don't think they should keep those things pent up, it's great they have a place to vent.

I thought that I would ask you guys. what you guys think. about what they could achieve. what they wanted to achieve. If they were going about it in a way that would help them. What ways they could do that.
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Old 02-11-2013, 04:17 AM   #31
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How can you talk about the privilege of someone you don't know anything about? All you know is that I'm female. Any other idea you've gleamed from my words is pure speculation. The only really useful social privileges in a patriarchal society are maleness and whiteness. Economic and class privilege is sometimes awarded to those who own those privileges (or align themselves with people who do).
None of this should have been about me. It's ok for you guys to check each other's privilege because you know each other's privilege.
It's taking the easy way out to say "you don't like something I like because you have privilege".
No, its saying, whoever you are, no one has the privilege and right to say what victims can and can't feel. I've been sexually harassed, so my privilege isn't that apparent over those who are harassed, but I shouldn't feel comfortable dictating what is and isn't acceptable ways. A privilege can be something that is seen as a right even though its not fair that its considered a right, and a ton of people assume they know whats best for victims, including other victims. Like last fall there were a series of druggings downtown, and there was this girl commenting online that was like "I got drugged once too, and you know, it was my fault! I wasn't careful and I was dressed like a slut." Its horrible what happened, and there's a lot of internalized misogyny going on there, but its not a right anyone has over another person.

Mind you I'm not comparing what you said to that, I'm just using it as an example. I'm saying that your initial reaction really seemed that way, because I thought it was pretty obvious that the blog talks about revenge and not violent revolution.

Also, there are more kinds of privileges. There's class privilege, as you said, there's heterosexual privilege, there's cis privilege, Christian privilege (assuming its hegemonic Christianity), thin privilege, and I could probably think of a few more. Mind you I think some are worse than others and a lot has to do with intersectionality (if you're white cismale middle to upper class, I doubt thin privilege has a whole lot of impact), but for many people, its there to some degree.
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Old 02-11-2013, 09:14 AM   #32
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I'm not being bugged by the gender tropes. What.
What's bugging me is that this is all very FUN isn't it? Fun fun fun fun. I think I'm a little too radical for this.
So, how is the fun aspect of things bothering you? I only mentioned tropes because you had mentioned them in a previous post and figured that they might have had something to do with it. Are you saying you're too radical for fun, or for this discussion?


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I walked in here and said "I don't know how I feel about this stuff" and that I wondered if it was in effect fighting other feminists as its main goal rather than the actual oppressing class. No one had to agree. I really expected something along the lines of "No, actually. They're using femininity as a tool. They're redefining gender. They're saying their sex belongs to themselves. It's very empowerful." I would have argued with that anyway but it wouldn't have just been derailing me by saying that I said the blog owner's "perspective isn't important just because it is different" from mine. Then I got called privileged and told that I was censoring them.

It's funny but it's also painful because I don't want to be afraid and avoid stating my opinion about anything here because I'll have my damn privilege dissected. It's pretty arrogant and assuming. I didn't tell anyone here anything about me and honestly I have no idea why it should be included in this conversation.
I know it can be a little weird at first to have discussions with people, who you don't fully agree with. But the thing, is we all come from different walks of life and all have plenty to contribute.

Also, I went ahead and re-read the thread, just to make sure I had a good idea of what's going on in it. From what I've read no one outright called you privileged, Saya merely stated that a certain viewpoint is privileged. I couldn't find anywhere where you were accused of censorship.

From what I can tell, we've all enjoyed having this conversation with you and rather hope it will continue.
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Old 02-12-2013, 09:40 PM   #33
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Saya:
I'm totally and genuinely sorry you experienced that. I hope that you were supported by family and friends and that you received help though there is never sufficient help available or even in existence.

ape descendant:
"I know it can be a little weird at first to have discussions with people, who you don't fully agree with."
Please don't be patronising.
I'm enjoying the conversation too! It doesn't matter to me that we don't agree on some things (though I'm confused about what things those are) you three have heard of feminism and that's already a special thing when I know so few people who have. : )

I'm finding it hard to turn attention off of me and what I originally said and onto the blog.

Saya, when you said "I'm usually skeptical when my peers talk about being subversive and fitting patriarchal norms about femininity at the same time. I felt that its a fine line to walk and hard to tell what's conditioning and what is authentic." what examples were they using? When I read your initial post I thought you would understand my skepticism of this blog (part of the reason I posted in the first place) but your peers must have been being subversive+feminine in a completely different way considering your unwavering support of this blog.

Last edited by Languor; 02-12-2013 at 09:42 PM. Reason: Why is r-a-p-e censored? that is total shit and I am mad.
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Old 02-12-2013, 10:24 PM   #34
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I think the reason we are focusing on you is because we don't really get what you are trying to get across and are hoping that sorting through your perspective and such will help us to communicate better. I mean obviously I can't speak for the others but I'm trying for clarification and it seems like they are too. Once we get where you are coming from we can have a much more productive discussion.

Also there are a bunch of stupidly censored words here like l.olita and some website names (which gets really obnoxious why trying to post links).
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Old 02-13-2013, 06:26 AM   #35
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Wasn't being patronizing, just empathetic. Instead of writing you off as a paranoid troll with bad reading comprehension, just thought you might have been a little uncomfortable at first.
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Old 02-13-2013, 01:57 PM   #36
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I think the reason we are focusing on you is because we don't really get what you are trying to get across and are hoping that sorting through your perspective and such will help us to communicate better. I mean obviously I can't speak for the others but I'm trying for clarification and it seems like they are too. Once we get where you are coming from we can have a much more productive discussion.

Also there are a bunch of stupidly censored words here like l.olita and some website names (which gets really obnoxious why trying to post links).
Yeah, I totally understand why you're focusing on me rather than what I'm saying if you don't know where I'm coming from. That can really help out with getting through difference to understanding and so on. I'm actually pretty surprised (and sorry!) that my ideas are coming across so badly! I'm usually pretty good at telling people what I think.

So far what I've been trying to say is that I felt dread about the blog's attitude because I've seen people try this one before and it hasn't worked well. It rang alarm bells as one of those 'girl-power' things which often really backfires on the (usually young) women who engage in it. I'm just speaking from my perspective, maybe it's worked wonderfully in other circles! When I was in my late teens I met a lot of girls who tried "funfeminism" and then left when it wasn't fun anymore. It makes me sad because the "fun" sometimes buries the important issues. Which is such a shame because it's great for a great movement to be fun! Women have so many horrifying truths to discover about their own oppression that a strong social connection including good support is something that would be really helpful.

The word filter thing really annoys and confuses me .__. some of those words are pretty important hahaha
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:03 PM   #37
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Saya, when you said "I'm usually skeptical when my peers talk about being subversive and fitting patriarchal norms about femininity at the same time. I felt that its a fine line to walk and hard to tell what's conditioning and what is authentic." what examples were they using? When I read your initial post I thought you would understand my skepticism of this blog (part of the reason I posted in the first place) but your peers must have been being subversive+feminine in a completely different way considering your unwavering support of this blog.
Right, I like the subversive part because its a proper reclamation of femininity while not adhering to the patriarchal construction of femininity. I think liberal feminists tend to have this idea that if you choose something, the act of choosing makes it empowering, feminist and subversive, you know? But often that means no transformation or critique, or adhering to a new liberal form of patriarchy.

Like, "I want nothing from life except to be a housewife and mother, and because I choose that, it makes it feminist". Not a common one, but I remember hearing this in first year English from a classmate. Well, the phrasing might not be common, but the sentiment is. For this, feminism is about choice, you choose your own destiny, and there is no discussion of internalized misogyny or how these choices aren't equally open to all women. The choice exists alone in a vacuum.

Or you could transform, but get caught up in liberal patriarchy. Here its okay to experiment with girls, but girls don't count. Pole dancing classes are empowering, because the intention is to get fit for your husband, not to get paid for dancing. We can call ourselves sluts, but veiled women are inherently oppressed. We are empowered to say yes to sex, but still not empowered to say no. You conform to sexist liberal norms instead of sexist conservative norms.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:17 PM   #38
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Right, I like the subversive part because its a proper reclamation of femininity while not adhering to the patriarchal construction of femininity. I think liberal feminists tend to have this idea that if you choose something, the act of choosing makes it empowering, feminist and subversive, you know? But often that means no transformation or critique, or adhering to a new liberal form of patriarchy.

Like, "I want nothing from life except to be a housewife and mother, and because I choose that, it makes it feminist". Not a common one, but I remember hearing this in first year English from a classmate. Well, the phrasing might not be common, but the sentiment is. For this, feminism is about choice, you choose your own destiny, and there is no discussion of internalized misogyny or how these choices aren't equally open to all women. The choice exists alone in a vacuum.

Or you could transform, but get caught up in liberal patriarchy. Here its okay to experiment with girls, but girls don't count. Pole dancing classes are empowering, because the intention is to get fit for your husband, not to get paid for dancing. We can call ourselves sluts, but veiled women are inherently oppressed. We are empowered to say yes to sex, but still not empowered to say no. You conform to sexist liberal norms instead of sexist conservative norms.
I feel exactly the same way! My issue is exactly with those sentiments. They are troubling to me.
Could you tell me what separates the blog's content/theme from the ideas you mentioned? I know there is a big difference in intention but I can't put my finger on it.
I've been watching them call women they don't like "chicks" and tell them to "fuck off" when they don't agree with their politics and the whole thing seems so not right to me. I really like their creative approach but I was afraid there would be contradictory logic in the blog and I'm starting to see some.
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Old 02-13-2013, 02:28 PM   #39
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I feel exactly the same way! My issue is exactly with those sentiments. They are troubling to me.
Could you tell me what separates the blog's content/theme from the ideas you mentioned? I know there is a big difference in intention but I can't put my finger on it.
I've been watching them call women they don't like "chicks" and tell them to "fuck off" when they don't agree with their politics and the whole thing seems so not right to me. I really like their creative approach but I was afraid there would be contradictory logic in the blog and I'm starting to see some.
Specific examples? I like that they're no bullshit about transphobia and queerphobia and appropriation. They're just as bad as sexism if not worse.

Even if they're not totally successful, I like that they take femininity, blur any definition of it so its very personal and subjective, and turn it against the patriarchy. What liberal feminism fails to do is reclaim lets say housewife/motherhood in any subversive way when you're in a hetero marriage, when you're white, when there's no push for universal childcare, there's no discussion at all on who stays home, and you're entirely at the financial mercy of your spouse. Maybe a fuckyeahsubversivehousewives is possible, I just haven't seen an example yet (in a private white heterosexual couple way). it assumes the institution of motherhood is completely fine the way it is as long as you choose it freely.
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Old 02-13-2013, 05:14 PM   #40
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Specific examples? I like that they're no bullshit about transphobia and queerphobia and appropriation. They're just as bad as sexism if not worse.

Even if they're not totally successful, I like that they take femininity, blur any definition of it so its very personal and subjective, and turn it against the patriarchy. What liberal feminism fails to do is reclaim lets say housewife/motherhood in any subversive way when you're in a hetero marriage, when you're white, when there's no push for universal childcare, there's no discussion at all on who stays home, and you're entirely at the financial mercy of your spouse. Maybe a fuckyeahsubversivehousewives is possible, I just haven't seen an example yet (in a private white heterosexual couple way). it assumes the institution of motherhood is completely fine the way it is as long as you choose it freely.
I know it got lost in my confusing ranting before but I did really like the creative femininity-questioning. I was lamenting that the often very well intentioned but often inevitably failing projects undertaken by liberal feminists often fail. But you were right before. Who cares if it fails? People are finding it cathartic and that's what a lot of women need right now.

Sorry to veer off topic but I really want to talk to someone about some issues surrounding transphobia. What do you think about the inclusion/exclusion of transwomen in women-born-women spaces (shelters, festivals, pharmacies)?
I fully recognise that exclusion is a powerful tool to oppress. Many underclasses have experienced exclusion from spaces that are traditionally white-male only. But the rejection of one underclass from another underclass's space is not usually considered an oppressive action (eg. Straight people from mardi gras parades, white people from black rights meetings, both exclusions I agree with wholeheartedly).
Questions like the ones I've listed have seen many radical feminists labeled transphobic by trans-activists recently and I was frightened at how silencing that seemed. When women stop being able to discuss what is or is not misogyny and where women born women are different from trans women then feminism is not a movement that allows women to express themselves.
I guess I'm just a little shocked at how the "transphobic" label seems to be being slung at a lot of women at the moment. Especially when trans people experience massive prejudice at the hands of white men (who are far more deserving of the label) every day.

As a side note, I hope you don't think that I'm for or against the inclusion/exclusion of trans women in woman born woman spaces by what I've said here. Honestly, I have a lot more research to do before I know what I think.
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Old 02-13-2013, 09:20 PM   #41
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Sorry to veer off topic but I really want to talk to someone about some issues surrounding transphobia. What do you think about the inclusion/exclusion of transwomen in women-born-women spaces (shelters, festivals, pharmacies)?
Transwomen are women, and should be allowed as such.

Quote:
I fully recognise that exclusion is a powerful tool to oppress. Many underclasses have experienced exclusion from spaces that are traditionally white-male only. But the rejection of one underclass from another underclass's space is not usually considered an oppressive action (eg. Straight people from mardi gras parades, white people from black rights meetings, both exclusions I agree with wholeheartedly).
But straight people/white people aren't an underclass as identities, they're oppressive. I need queer only spaces because when you're being candid and open about how you feel, straight people tend to get defensive and derail the whole thing so its about them. This is also why I think women only spaces and black only spaces and trans only spaces, etc etc are pretty important, it allows the voice to be authentically the voice of the identity group. There is overlap of course, women can be queer and can be black and be trans all at the same time so its not like everyone is staying separate at all.

Quote:
Questions like the ones I've listed have seen many radical feminists labeled transphobic by trans-activists recently and I was frightened at how silencing that seemed. When women stop being able to discuss what is or is not misogyny and where women born women are different from trans women then feminism is not a movement that allows women to express themselves.
I guess I'm just a little shocked at how the "transphobic" label seems to be being slung at a lot of women at the moment. Especially when trans people experience massive prejudice at the hands of white men (who are far more deserving of the label) every day.
Lots of feminists do this for far less valid reasons (you're not a feminist if you're Muslim, you're not a feminist if you're pro-life...not that I agree with anti-choice feminists, but I don't revoke their feminist cards. Plenty of feminists in history we idolize were very racist and anti-choice and a whole lot of unpleasant oppressive things). I don't think transphobic radfems aren't feminists, but I don't need their transphobia in my life and I would totally boot them off my blog too. Women can oppress other women, and cis women certainly oppress trans women. We exclude them from spaces where they need to be, and that endangers their very safety. Its easy to pass the buck to men but really, would transwomen be murdered so often if we let them in our bathrooms, our feminist groups, our shelters, and if we constantly out them? We throw them to the wolves and wonder why they don't like us.

Its also problematic to people FAAB (female assigned at birth), because it misgenders them as women. Are transmen okay in women-born-women spaces? What about genderqueer or genderfluid people who may not identify as women, but were FAAB and still face the same sexism cis women face?

Quote:
As a side note, I hope you don't think that I'm for or against the inclusion/exclusion of trans women in woman born woman spaces by what I've said here. Honestly, I have a lot more research to do before I know what I think.
I gathered that, but I hope you realize why its so problematic. "Women born women" is extremely problematic, are we really defined by our vaginas? I wonder if because some feminists resent the fact that there's diversity and no universal womanhood, they look to the vagina as the one thing that unites us. Like I even know feminists who are only okay with transwomen if they have vaginas, like they're entitled to know what's between their legs.

You know a good way I like to explain this, is The Little Mermaid. Ariel for the first half of the movie doesn't have a vagina. We have no idea how mermaids reproduce in Disney's or Anderson's mermaidverse, it could be magic for all we know and they have no sex organs, and therefore no real sex. But we don't question that Ariel is a girl. She's a merMAID after all. She presents as a woman even if she doesn't have the genitalia, and she is not disordered or Frankenstein's monster when she gets a vagina and becomes human, she just got legs now and is able to pass as a human woman no problem, and we're happy that she's where she wants to be.
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Old 02-13-2013, 10:14 PM   #42
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Transwomen are women, and should be allowed as such.



But straight people/white people aren't an underclass as identities, they're oppressive. I need queer only spaces because when you're being candid and open about how you feel, straight people tend to get defensive and derail the whole thing so its about them. This is also why I think women only spaces and black only spaces and trans only spaces, etc etc are pretty important, it allows the voice to be authentically the voice of the identity group. There is overlap of course, women can be queer and can be black and be trans all at the same time so its not like everyone is staying separate at all.



Lots of feminists do this for far less valid reasons (you're not a feminist if you're Muslim, you're not a feminist if you're pro-life...not that I agree with anti-choice feminists, but I don't revoke their feminist cards. Plenty of feminists in history we idolize were very racist and anti-choice and a whole lot of unpleasant oppressive things). I don't think transphobic radfems aren't feminists, but I don't need their transphobia in my life and I would totally boot them off my blog too. Women can oppress other women, and cis women certainly oppress trans women. We exclude them from spaces where they need to be, and that endangers their very safety. Its easy to pass the buck to men but really, would transwomen be murdered so often if we let them in our bathrooms, our feminist groups, our shelters, and if we constantly out them? We throw them to the wolves and wonder why they don't like us.

Its also problematic to people FAAB (female assigned at birth), because it misgenders them as women. Are transmen okay in women-born-women spaces? What about genderqueer or genderfluid people who may not identify as women, but were FAAB and still face the same sexism cis women face?



I gathered that, but I hope you realize why its so problematic. "Women born women" is extremely problematic, are we really defined by our vaginas? I wonder if because some feminists resent the fact that there's diversity and no universal womanhood, they look to the vagina as the one thing that unites us. Like I even know feminists who are only okay with transwomen if they have vaginas, like they're entitled to know what's between their legs.

You know a good way I like to explain this, is The Little Mermaid. Ariel for the first half of the movie doesn't have a vagina. We have no idea how mermaids reproduce in Disney's or Anderson's mermaidverse, it could be magic for all we know and they have no sex organs, and therefore no real sex. But we don't question that Ariel is a girl. She's a merMAID after all. She presents as a woman even if she doesn't have the genitalia, and she is not disordered or Frankenstein's monster when she gets a vagina and becomes human, she just got legs now and is able to pass as a human woman no problem, and we're happy that she's where she wants to be.
Hahaha I've never thought about disney genitals before. Fish/dolphins have vaginas though, just throwing that out there heheheh.

I don't think women are defined by their vaginas at all. The term "Women born women" may be problematic in the way it's being used by some people but there are differences. You can't on one hand claim that trans women are oppressed by something that FAB women do not experience (transphobia) and then say that FABs and Transwomen have no differences.

"Its easy to pass the buck to men but really, would transwomen be murdered so often if we let them in our bathrooms, our feminist groups, our shelters, and if we constantly out them?"

It is truly abhorrent what resentment trans people face.
I know exactly where you're coming from but I really don't like that question. Assuming those trans people were murdered by men, (I think it's likely to be that way a lot of the time) blaming women for excluding those people is overlooking the murderers. Women get murdered often but we don't blame their being excluded from certain groups for that. Hopefully we blame their murderers. Alienation is a dark thing but I had hoped that trans groups would have provided support and care that other groups do. I think I'll look more into what trans groups do for trans women.

Anyway, I'm not trying to pick apart what you said. It stands pretty solidly. I agree that trans women = women and Female born women = women but I don't believe that analysing the differences (especially when it comes to different experiences/ oppression) is transphobic.
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Old 02-13-2013, 11:02 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Languor View Post
Hahaha I've never thought about disney genitals before. Fish/dolphins have vaginas though, just throwing that out there heheheh.
Well yeah but we don't know that about mermaids. Anderson was queer himself, and The Little Mermaid could be read as basically a rejection story (he was rejected by all the people, men and women, he admired. The Little Mermaid is also rejected by the prince in his story and dies. The Disney version changing that is of course to protect kids but also its interesting that Ariel isn't soulless or rejected in their version) so I don't think its too unlikely that they would be kinda queer in his view anyway.

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I don't think women are defined by their vaginas at all. The term "Women born women" may be problematic in the way it's being used by some people but there are differences. You can't on one hand claim that trans women are oppressed by something that FAB women do not experience (transphobia) and then say that FABs and Transwomen have no differences.
I didn't say there aren't differences, I just said that they too are women. There's a whole lot of difference between straight women and queer women, black women and white women, and how they experience oppression and how much oppression they face, but they're all still women. Although I would note that at one time, black women weren't really considered women by suffragettes, which allowed the suffragettes to continue to be racist without criticism. I mean the one black woman anyone remembers from the first wave, if they do at all, is Sojourner Truth, who's claim to fame is just insisting that even as a black woman, she's a woman.

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"Its easy to pass the buck to men but really, would transwomen be murdered so often if we let them in our bathrooms, our feminist groups, our shelters, and if we constantly out them?"

It is truly abhorrent what resentment trans people face.
I know exactly where you're coming from but I really don't like that question. Assuming those trans people were murdered by men, (I think it's likely to be that way a lot of the time) blaming women for excluding those people is overlooking the murderers. Women get murdered often but we don't blame their being excluded from certain groups for that. Hopefully we blame their murderers. Alienation is a dark thing but I had hoped that trans groups would have provided support and care that other groups do. I think I'll look more into what trans groups do for trans women.
Women do it to ciswomen too. Once a guy tried to drag me off at a bar, I was pretty damn drunk and just managed to get away. The friends I had gone with told me I was a prude for not going off with him, they didn't help me at all. While yeah, its crappy a guy felt entitled to drag a girl off without saying a word and he's an asshole for that, my friends were also assholes for both not defending me and then turning around and saying I'm the problem. There was a statistic from the UK a few years ago that women tend to blame victims of sexual assault more than men do, and I believe it. And feminists know the consequences of leaving transwomen out.

Trans resources are sadly not accessible. Trans people aren't exactly a huge population, so it depends on where you are on what access you have. Here, all our shelters are divided by gender. So lets say a transwoman is homeless, and a women only shelter rejects her because she's trans, where does she go? That's it. That's all there is. To the street she goes. There's certainly trans people here who want change, but trans people are small in number, tend to be impoverished and few people would be willing to donate to them.

Even among LGBT resources, there's a lot of transphobia. Some of the most profilic members of LGBT are very transphobic. Its really bullshit because it was trans people who started the movement in the first place and in the kindness of their hearts included the LGB, who completely took over.

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Anyway, I'm not trying to pick apart what you said. It stands pretty solidly. I agree that trans women = women and Female born women = women but I don't believe that analysing the differences (especially when it comes to different experiences/ oppression) is transphobic.
There's differences, but difference is to be celebrated, not a means to out someone. And those with certain privileges, like cis privilege, aren't in the best position to analyze because they have a stake in preserving that privilege. There is no such thing as being unbiased here.
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Old 02-14-2013, 06:49 AM   #44
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Transwomen are women. Events and organizations that service women who try to exclude transwomen are transphobic, because they are denying transwomen's identities as women.

The women's movement has a history of being shitty and exclusionary toward minority women. The suffragette movement in the turn of the last century had many chapters that were notoriously racist. Even Betty Friedan threw a fit about what she called the "lavender menace" because she felt that gay women were detrimental to the movement.

Trans-exclusion (well for the most part transwoman exclusion, because the same people tend to accept transmen *eyeroll* into women's spaces when transmen are NOT women they're MEN) is merely another facet to this ugly side of our movement. We must work toward acceptance and unity or risk alienating women who have much to offer, and need to be included when it comes to issues regarding their very own gender.

FUCK the Women Born Women movement, it is transphobic as fuck. Its pretty much cis privilege marching around in those ugly ass WBW t-shirts.

In the end, I am most certainly not interested in attending or supporting women's organizations or events that wouldn't accept my wife. Further, I don't have to try to see things their way, or pretend its ok and neither does she.

Gagh, transphobic bullshit just takes me from zero to pissed in 3 seconds.
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Old 02-14-2013, 10:31 AM   #45
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Actually, i have expierence in all this crap. Sadly im working right now. So i can't make any lengthy comments. But, most things have already been stated by Saya and Ape. It never ceases to amaze how well informed and emphathetic you two are.

I'll get to this later though. Need to get back to work.
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Old 02-14-2013, 02:22 PM   #46
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Saya:
One thing that I'm confused about in regards to the "cis-privilege" that is being refereed to is that as far as I know, privilege means one class oppressing another to benefit the former. I just don't think FAB women benefit from the oppression of transwomen. Do you think they do? I'm pretty confused about that term.
Hmm it's sad that there aren't any trans resources available. I hope that soon there will be organisations that support them specifically. A lot of the FAB facilities that exclude transwomen (like "women only" pharmacies) are not set up to cater to transwomen's specific physical needs and it would be so good if there were a pharmacies with full dedication to their situation.
I have always felt so strongly about the violence that is directed towards homosexual people and/or trans people. That's a good example with the homeless shelter. I've got to really think about that.
If you want to hear my personal leanings, I definitely accept transwomen and if I set up something for women it would include all women. What I'm trying to wrap my head around here is that I also respect women who think that specific meetings that are FAB only might remain that way. I think the reason I think that I feel that way is the same reason you excused some things that were being said in righteous anger on subversivekawaii. I feel like a FAB who has been traumatised by living in the patriarchy, who seeks out "women" for protection and who does not feel comfortable with someone who was once physically male is not crazy or transphobic to feel that way. I don't agree but I understand it.

Murder.Of.Crows:
I'd like to hear what you have to say! : )

Last edited by Languor; 02-14-2013 at 02:26 PM. Reason: typos. it's too early augh
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:18 PM   #47
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I guess I could kind of see how some women may have a problem with a trans* woman in a nude space like a sauna or communal showers because seeing a penis can be a trigger but other than that I can't see how a trans* woman is at all representative of the patriarchy, they suffer greatly from it, honestly they suffer from it even more so than cis women.

A person is how they present themself. Gender is far too complicated of a thing for us to simplify down to a yes or no. People try by boiling it down to a person's sex but even that fails, and that doesn't begin to do anything for people who don't identify as a man or woman (whether they identify as both, neither, or something else).
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Old 02-14-2013, 03:52 PM   #48
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It's really complicated. I don't think transwomen represent the patriarchy but a lot of women believe that since they grew up knowing male privilege then that places them in a different group based on experience. I think that the hardships of growing up transgender are different than the hardships of growing up female but they all fall under the category of not being a socially accepted man which means you're absolute shit in the patriarchy's eyes either way.

Yeah. Sex definitely does not equal gender. "how they present themself" is a good way to describe gender, I think.
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Old 02-14-2013, 07:07 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Languor View Post
Saya:
One thing that I'm confused about in regards to the "cis-privilege" that is being refereed to is that as far as I know, privilege means one class oppressing another to benefit the former. I just don't think FAB women benefit from the oppression of transwomen. Do you think they do? I'm pretty confused about that term.
We hold ourselves up to be the "real" women who are more deserving of any resources that are set aside for women, saving it only for ourselves despite the fact transwomen may be more needy. We feel free to out transwomen without their permission.

Hording resources is pretty bad, like I said in small communities when there are NO other trans people, let alone resources, what would you do?

Also this is more clearly seen in conservative women circles, but I think liberal feminists do it in more subtle ways, is that we distance ourselves from those we do not want to be associated with because they're "freakish" or too subversive in order to glean trust from power holders. If men associate us with hairy lesbians or transwomen, they might not take US, the REAL women, seriously! And we feel we need validation from men.

Quote:
Hmm it's sad that there aren't any trans resources available. I hope that soon there will be organisations that support them specifically. A lot of the FAB facilities that exclude transwomen (like "women only" pharmacies) are not set up to cater to transwomen's specific physical needs and it would be so good if there were a pharmacies with full dedication to their situation.
What needs do they have that are different in terms of pharmacies? Cis women take hormone supplements too. Maybe someone more familiar with what prescriptions transwomen take but I really can't think of any. Also, AFAIK there's only one in all of North America, and after protest (from a group called the Femininjas...OMG I NEED TO STEAL THIS) they dropped the women-born-women policy. The only awkwardness mentioned is that the transwoman who went still had her old name on her prescriptions, so the pharmacist had to ask her what her preferred name was, and also asked for her preferred gender pronoun. Not too bad!

http://www.xtra.ca/public/Vancouver/...omen-8271.aspx

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I have always felt so strongly about the violence that is directed towards homosexual people and/or trans people. That's a good example with the homeless shelter. I've got to really think about that.
If you want to hear my personal leanings, I definitely accept transwomen and if I set up something for women it would include all women. What I'm trying to wrap my head around here is that I also respect women who think that specific meetings that are FAB only might remain that way. I think the reason I think that I feel that way is the same reason you excused some things that were being said in righteous anger on subversivekawaii. I feel like a FAB who has been traumatised by living in the patriarchy, who seeks out "women" for protection and who does not feel comfortable with someone who was once physically male is not crazy or transphobic to feel that way. I don't agree but I understand it.
The problem with this though is, where do you draw the line? What if a woman was rraped by a woman (and it happens!) and doesn't want any queer women at all in their shelter? Where do you draw the line between what bigotry is allowed because of possible uncomfortableness?
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Old 02-19-2013, 12:22 AM   #50
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"We hold ourselves up to be the "real" women who are more deserving of any resources that are set aside for women, saving it only for ourselves despite the fact transwomen may be more needy. We feel free to out transwomen without their permission."

Can you explain to me what "out" as a verb means? I think I'm a bit behind on LGBT cultural terms.

"Also this is more clearly seen in conservative women circles, but I think liberal feminists do it in more subtle ways, is that we distance ourselves from those we do not want to be associated with because they're "freakish" or too subversive in order to glean trust from power holders. If men associate us with hairy lesbians or transwomen, they might not take US, the REAL women, seriously! And we feel we need validation from men."

libfems tend to be much less critical of transpeople than radfems. I disagree with a lot of liberal feminist beliefs but I like that liberal feminism is helping young women get introduced to the concept that they are not just walking sex to be used by their owners and die serving them.
I disagree with a lot of people commenting on radfem blogs who are turning away from criticism and towards hate. I used to excuse them on the grounds that they were obviously battered people and they found the subject matter painful but I've decided that that is never really ok. Play the ball, not the man, so to speak.

I don't agree that trans women are more oppressed than FAB women. I totally respect your beliefs though and I see where you're coming from.

"The problem with this though is, where do you draw the line? What if a woman was rraped by a woman (and it happens!) and doesn't want any queer women at all in their shelter? Where do you draw the line between what bigotry is allowed because of possible uncomfortableness?"

Good point. Where do trans people draw the line in trans-only spaces? Is it just a matter of someone saying "I am transgender" or do they have to be dressed a certain way? Do people ever get turned away from trans-only events for not being trans enough? (Seriously asking, you seem to know so much about all this! I've learned a lot.)
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