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Old 02-19-2013, 02:33 AM   #51
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Can you explain to me what "out" as a verb means? I think I'm a bit behind on LGBT cultural terms.
I guess you could boil it down as outing is sharing someone's personal business, the term is mostly used to refer to someone's sexual orientation but it can be used for other things as well. For example I'm queer and I'm out in my personal life, I talk about it openly with family and friends, but in my professional life I've always stayed in the closet, if one of my friends were to tell a coworker they would be outing me.

Outing doesn't have to be malicious, it could easily be that someone just assumed that because you are out to them that it isn't a big deal for them to tell people, but even well intentioned outing can have dire consequences for people.

As far as when someone is or is not allowed in a safe space I don't have any experience with trans* only spaces but I can give you my experiences with women only and queer only spaces if you think it would be helpful.
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Old 02-21-2013, 02:27 PM   #52
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Sorry, I know I promised a reply a awhile ago. But, It's been hard getting anything typed out on a cell phone.

I haben't heard of trans only spaces. The closest being was a regulation on the members having to have been met by the groups president. As to protect the entire groups from attack or ridicule. Which is understandable. But, they were open to allies and families.

As for facilities not having resources for our care is a sad excuse. Our HRT is simply a higher dosage of the same HRT for a women past menapause. I believe in earlier stages of trans-HRT we also take androgen blockers. The medication itself is called Progestrogen. There are other types depending on blood pressure and choice, but it's all the same that is used for CiS women.

Most of what I had to say has already been covered and addresed and I am in no way an expert. To avoid any redundancy, i'm just going to leave it at that. But, I'll be happy to address any questions...

I liked how trans-friendly the site was. I wasn't expecting that for kawaii feminists. Generally, I have become very reluctant of trusting feminst groups.
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Old 02-23-2013, 10:16 PM   #53
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Shit I accidentally deleted my comment lol

Solumina: I would love to hear about your experiences with queer-only spaces!

Murder.Of.Crows: My issue was definitely not with how trans-friendly the site was. My issue was with the violence directed at the women who made any critical observations or discussed the legitimacy of female at birth only events.
Do you identify as a feminist, out of curiosity?
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Old 02-24-2013, 02:03 PM   #54
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Shit I accidentally deleted my comment lol

Solumina: I would love to hear about your experiences with queer-only spaces!

Murder.Of.Crows: My issue was definitely not with how trans-friendly the site was. My issue was with the violence directed at the women who made any critical observations or discussed the legitimacy of female at birth only events.
Do you identify as a feminist, out of curiosity?
But women-born-women spaces are just as helpful as straights only events, and just as bigoted. I don't think any courtesy is really owed to bigotry.
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Old 02-24-2013, 03:23 PM   #55
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Do you believe that gender is a social construct, Saya? Or do you believe it is innate? Just so I know if we're on the same page here.
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Old 02-24-2013, 06:28 PM   #56
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Gender is a social construct, what a person believes doesn't have anything to do with it.
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Old 02-24-2013, 08:49 PM   #57
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Saya answered my question to Solumina and Solumina answered my question to Saya! You two are joined at the hip! Hahaha : )

Solumina:
I've read a lot of Trans people writing lately that gender is innate and it is transphobic to say otherwise. This confused me a bit so I was wondering what you guys think.

Also if anyone can help me out with this one I'd really appreciate it.
I always felt that the gender constructed for women was destructive or at least used in destructive ways. From what I know, this is pretty much agreed upon across the board in feminism. If society has constructed this gender for us to exist in then is transgenderism the need to be part of a socially constructed role or is it the need to be biologically female?
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:16 AM   #58
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Saya answered my question to Solumina and Solumina answered my question to Saya! You two are joined at the hip! Hahaha : )
We've both been around here long enough (and had enough of these threads) to usually be able to fill in a bit, certainly helps keep discussions going ^_^

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I've read a lot of Trans people writing lately that gender is innate and it is transphobic to say otherwise. This confused me a bit so I was wondering what you guys think.
I haven't heard that except to say that you can't tell someone what their gender is, it is something very personal and if they identify a certain way that is how they are. I guess it is kind of like sexual orientation, you aren't exactly born that way, environmental factors play a part too, and it isn't strict or unchanging but it's still intrinsic. Did that make sense?

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Also if anyone can help me out with this one I'd really appreciate it.
I always felt that the gender constructed for women was destructive or at least used in destructive ways. From what I know, this is pretty much agreed upon across the board in feminism.
To put a complicated topic into a few short sentences: gender roles most determinately have been used to oppress women but gender roles were constructed to keep society stability. Unfortunately stability is often brought about through oppression but gender roles are continually changing and at some points in time a virginal woman could have great privilege so in those times it would be familial roles that were oppressive.

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If society has constructed this gender for us to exist in then is transgenderism the need to be part of a socially constructed role or is it the need to be biologically female?
I'm far from an expert on the specifics of being trans* but I do want to point out that trans* people and people with gender identity disorder are not the same, for the sake of accuracy I'm going to break from using trans* for a bit because there are non-transgendered people who identify as trans*.

There are plenty of people with GID that are not transgendered. They could have no desire to change their physical body, just a desire to take on gender roles that are not what society expects of them and meet the criteria for GID. A lot of people with GID find that role playing or cross dressing resolves their gender conflict so for them it isn't about their physical self but actions and aesthetics. Transgendered individuals are troubled by their physical self, dressing up or taking on traditional gender roles does not fully alleviate their conflict, for many just the sight of their own body causes them great distress.

I want to clarify that nobody can change their biological self, your chromosomes are what they are, you can only change the physical, but as far as I know that doesn't trouble anyone. I also want to say that it is completely possible for a person to be born genetically male but physically female (not sure if it can work the other way) and, while they have a higher rate of GID than average, most do not have any conflict about their identity (or at least not in regards to gender).
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Old 02-25-2013, 09:25 AM   #59
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I feel when we're talking about gender as a social construct we're going into academic theory that I'll have to write a lot about and I need time for that, so as fast as I can on my lunch break while my lunch is cooking: gender is a social construct.

HOWEVER, that does not mean gender is not real, and trans* people are right to be wary of that statement. It might be useful to say gender performance is a social construct, gender roles are social constructs, but how you act and perform gender doesn't say much about your gender identity. Identity is a very complex issue, and like Sol said, some is innate, some is environmental, and its very hard to figure out which is which sometimes, but as far as gender identity goes, all the evidence I've seen points to it being somehow innate. Performance and roles are not.

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There are plenty of people with GID that are not transgendered. They could have no desire to change their physical body, just a desire to take on gender roles that are not what society expects of them and meet the criteria for GID. A lot of people with GID find that role playing or cross dressing resolves their gender conflict so for them it isn't about their physical self but actions and aesthetics. Transgendered individuals are troubled by their physical self, dressing up or taking on traditional gender roles does not fully alleviate their conflict, for many just the sight of their own body causes them great distress.
Did you mean transsexual in the bolded part?

But yeah, some trans* people have body dysphoria, some do not, and even among those with dysphoria they may or may not want to change their bodies. Its very individual.
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Old 02-25-2013, 11:27 PM   #60
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Did you mean transsexual in the bolded part?
To be perfectly honest I'm not totally clear on the distinction, I know there is one but I've only seen it addressed in one place and it was mostly a passing mention. In my understanding there is a physical aspect to being transgendered, it just doesn't necessarily have to do with genitalia which it would with transsexualism. I don't really know, it gets so confusing since most people just use trans*, which could refer to being transsexual, transgendered, gender queer, and like a dozen other things and as far as academic sources it is hardly covered and even when it is definitions vary.
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Old 02-26-2013, 03:47 AM   #61
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I hear you, my psychology of gender book is like "transsexuals who are attracted to the same sex are not considered disordered", and I had to read it twice. Why not "transsexuals who consider themselves heterosexual?"

But transsexual refers to people who identify as another sex. Transgender is an umbrella term for many different identities, could be mtf, ftm, bigender, no gender, etc, basically anything that isn't cisgender. Typically transexual refers to those who want to physically transition and have body dysphoria, although I don't like assuming that about anyone, and there's varying degrees. Transgender people can also have body dysphoria, but they can also not.

I was happy the DSM was eliminating gender identity disorder with gender dysphoria...but they decided to keep the bullshit about how gay trans* people (attracted to the sex they identify with) are disordered.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:04 AM   #62
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Saya, just jumping in here but I have another question (of millions). I don't understand what sex identification is. Well, I know that it means to identify with a sex but how do you do that? Gender is social and communicated but sex is pretty invisible and impossible to change. Is Transexualism the want to be a different sex even though it is impossible to do so? That makes me really sad. : (
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Old 02-26-2013, 05:56 AM   #63
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Is Transexualism the want to be a different sex even though it is impossible to do so? That makes me really sad. : (
It is not impossible to change one's sex. That's what HRT and surgery are for.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:05 AM   #64
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Ok so this must be where I'm confused. So sex is defined by the appearance of the genitals and the hormones present within the body? I thought it was scientifically agreed upon that chromosomal characteristics went into play when it came to the definition of biological sex.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:45 AM   #65
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Can't believe I missed this thread. Completely agree with Solumina and Saya.
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Old 02-26-2013, 09:44 AM   #66
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I've been watching it like a hawk, though I'm still lost in the sauce. To be honest, my one post was just so I could subscribe to it.
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Old 02-26-2013, 10:30 AM   #67
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Ok so this must be where I'm confused. So sex is defined by the appearance of the genitals and the hormones present within the body? I thought it was scientifically agreed upon that chromosomal characteristics went into play when it came to the definition of biological sex.
No. Chromosones vary, with reports of ciS women having xy chromosone pairing and cis men having xx pairing. As well with the cases of multiple chrosomes. Yes, they do generally govern physical traits, but they are not conclusive to sex and definitely not gender.
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Old 02-26-2013, 01:19 PM   #68
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Yeah, what MoC said. You can have non-normative sex chromosomes and never know if you don't have any symptoms. Unless something is wrong or pre-natal screening is done, which isn't common, most people don't know what chromosomes they have for a fact. Scientifically, even sex doesn't operate strictly within a neat binary.
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Old 02-26-2013, 04:40 PM   #69
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Alan:
You sure showed me! lol. It's not so much an argument anymore as it is a discussion of terms. Unless you are agreeing with their side of the earlier argument about subversivekawaii in which case, good for you! I hope you enjoy the tumblr : )

Murder.Of.Crows:
I didn't know that at all!
So you said "no" to answer my question about whether chromosomes are considered important to the definition of sex and then you said "they are not conclusive to sex and definitely not gender.". I actually asked if they were part of the consideration rather than the conclusive part but I totally get what you meant. I'd love to see a definition of sex that was friendly to your claim. Hope that didn't sound aggressive, I'm generally curious!

Saya:
Oh that's interesting! But surely as normative sex chromosomes do correlate with biological sex and contribute to the growth of what we understand to be male/female bodies, aren't they still a largely considered factor?
Also, do you think sex is something a person can change? I've even heard trans people argue that sex can not be changed so everyone here has a radically different view that most that I've come across.
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Old 02-26-2013, 06:59 PM   #70
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In a purely scientific context chromosomes can be used to help determine sex.

However, in regular, everyday interactions even bringing up chromosomes is rather absurd, as most people have never had their chromosomes tested.

The characteristics that we associate with sex are determined by combinations of hormones that we were exposed to in our mother's womb, and our own genes which tell our bodies which hormones to produce in which levels. The various levels and combinations that our bodies (which have varying levels of sensitivity to these hormones) are subjected to allow us to fall along a continuum of physical sexual expression. In fact, in the womb, babies have the same set of protogenitals until they are acted upon by different hormones causing them to take their shape.

When one undergoes HRT, one is merely fixing the balance of hormones in the body to match what is more correct for the individual, helping to correct the hormone imbalance they're experiencing and establishing secondary sex characteristics. For some folks that's enough.

For many, there's a need for surgery to help rid one of the wrong secondary sex characteristics, and help to gain the correct primary sex characteristic of their correct sex. Sometimes folks need surgery to fix nature's horrible, horrible mistakes.
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Old 02-26-2013, 07:28 PM   #71
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I completely empathise with people who do not feel happy in their bodies but "nature's horrible, horrible mistakes"? I'm going to grow a sense of humour and assume you're being facetious. heh.

"fixing the balance of hormones in the body to match what is more correct for the individual" To change the body's appearance, right? Just making sure I know what you mean.

"However, in regular, everyday interactions even bringing up chromosomes is rather absurd, as most people have never had their chromosomes tested."
It's definitely not relevant to know an individual's sex chromosomes in everyday interactions (and it would be shockingly offensive to inquire) but we're not discussing each other's chromosomes. We're discussing the definition of biological sex. I am asking about what makes someone male or female not man or woman which is not social but biological.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:23 PM   #72
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Alan:
You sure showed me! lol. It's not so much an argument anymore as it is a discussion of terms. Unless you are agreeing with their side of the earlier argument about subversivekawaii in which case, good for you! I hope you enjoy the tumblr : )
Don't patronize me.
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Old 02-26-2013, 08:37 PM   #73
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There's no reason for me to be patronising to you, you haven't said anything offensive to me at all. I was being completely literal in asking what was said that you agreed with. I'm really sorry it came across that way! It's hard to convey tone through the internet. There was no malice in "I hope you enjoy the tumblr!" and I definitely wasn't mocking you. I'm still curious about what you agree with but I won't push it any further if it makes you uncomfortable at all.
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Old 02-27-2013, 05:15 AM   #74
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I completely empathise with people who do not feel happy in their bodies but "nature's horrible, horrible mistakes"? I'm going to grow a sense of humour and assume you're being facetious. heh.
I take it you're not close to any people with gender dysphoria. The mismatch isn't fun for people to have to live with and is one of nature's horrible mistakes. Its a whole lot bigger than "not being happy" in ones body, its like the difference between "just being sad" and suffering from a deep clinical depression.

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"fixing the balance of hormones in the body to match what is more correct for the individual" To change the body's appearance, right? Just making sure I know what you mean.
Is there some other magical thing to change? The hormones change the body, yes, the mind is already of another gender which is why there's a problem in the first place.

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"However, in regular, everyday interactions even bringing up chromosomes is rather absurd, as most people have never had their chromosomes tested."
It's definitely not relevant to know an individual's sex chromosomes in everyday interactions (and it would be shockingly offensive to inquire) but we're not discussing each other's chromosomes. We're discussing the definition of biological sex. I am asking about what makes someone male or female not man or woman which is not social but biological.
In a conversation about human beings, their minds and the acceptance of them, I hardly see why we need to have some sort of cut and dry definition of biological sex as the definition of biological sex varies depending on which field one is looking at the question from. There are so many genes, hormones and structural factors that go into determining biological sex it can be rather hard to pin down.

I mean, where would we even start? And, as lay people, how is it even relevant to how we treat people? I can understand if you're trying to have babies or if you're a doctor who is treating some one, but in those instances we have the luxury of knowing exactly which individual we'd be working with and a set of characteristics to discuss, so that we could figure out where that person would fall in the continuum that is human biological sex.


BTW, here's a link to a list of medical definitions for biological sex, should you wish to peruse them http://medical-dictionary.thefreedic...Biological+sex
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Old 02-27-2013, 07:09 PM   #75
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I've known quite a few people with disassociation, body dysmorphic disorder or gender dysphoria (the thing joining them all being a disconnection from outside perceptions of themselves) and none of those people would call their condition nature's horrible mistake. It makes me extremely sad that anyone feels that way about their body.

Do most transwomen want their condition (not in the medical sense, I mean their state of being.) to be viewed as the result of a disease (gender identity disorder, gender dysphoria etc) or do they want it to be viewed as a cultural and intellectual choice/movement? Is it both?

Doesn't binary mean one of two? How is a transwoman non-binary if she is a woman? If women's gender (feminine, submissive, oppressed) is destructive to women then why do liberal feminists say is it suitable for transwomen? Is it subversive to say you are a woman when you are male?

I'm sorry for all the questions but I'm stumped : (
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