State Laws/ Propositions

[x-deviant-x]

It doesn't offend me. I find it humorous that people still believe this crap, that's all. And I find it pathetic that christians pick and choose what they want to follow from the bible. Regardless of my personal views on christianity or religion in general, I'm not going to try dictating to anyone what they should or shouldn't believe religiously. That doesn't mean I'm not going to laugh at them for their simple-mindedness or lack of ability to think for themselves. If someone needs a centuries-old book of text written by a bunch of perverts whose primary goal was to come up with more ways to make people feel guilty about feeling good, in order to control the masses, then so be it.

I believe in a free society, where people should be allowed to do and think as they please, so long as it doesn't harm another individual, or deny any other individuals rights to live their life as they wish, with who they wish.

I would like to hear one valid reason though, that does not pertain to any set of religious beliefs, as to why homosexuals should be denied their right to marry and share with whomever they choose. So far no one, here on these boards or anywhere else that I've found, has been able to accomplish this.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

It doesn't offend me. I find it humorous that people still believe this crap, that's all. And I find it pathetic that christians pick and choose what they want to follow from the bible. Regardless of my personal views on christianity or religion in general, I'm not going to try dictating to anyone what they should or shouldn't believe religiously. That doesn't mean I'm not going to laugh at them for their simple-mindedness or lack of ability to think for themselves. If someone needs a centuries-old book of text written by a bunch of perverts whose primary goal was to come up with more ways to make people feel guilty about feeling good, in order to control the masses, then so be it.

I believe in a free society, where people should be allowed to do and think as they please, so long as it doesn't harm another individual, or deny any other individuals rights to live their life as they wish, with who they wish.

I would like to hear one valid reason though, that does not pertain to any set of religious beliefs, as to why homosexuals should be denied their right to marry and share with whomever they choose. So far no one, here on these boards or anywhere else that I've found, has been able to accomplish this.

That's because there isn't one.

[~~Auriel~~]

Deviant-
My comment was in no way intended to offend, like I said, I have gay friends and we respect each other's ideals. Who you choose to spend your life with doesn't affect me at all, and vice versa the same. I respect your choice to live your life as you see fit, and honestly I don't have a huge issue about it because I don't judge people (per Jesus's teachings in the NT). Suum cuique pulchrum est- To each his own is beautiful. Neither do I consider it a "sickness" as many clergy believe it to be. I consider it a personal preference.

First, I want to say that I have read the Bible numerous times for my own understanding and much of this is interpreted by myself (with of course prayer to God for guidance and understanding). I must say I agree with JCC, homosexuality in the Bible is very clearly stated as being wrong...and I also agree with Jillian; it is also about anal sex. There is definitely a duality to the Bible's teachings in this regard. Anal sex can occur between gay and straight couples. I think the point is that God considers it to be "unclean," as this is the orafice that our "waste" comes out of. Here is an interesting article on the OT event of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as Noah's Ark: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodom_and_Gomorrah http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noah%27s_ark

It is challenging to explain my religion in it's entirety, because it is self-defined. I DO think for myself. Largely it is based on Christianity, but also blended with Zen Buddhism and Native American Spirituality. Overall, my reason for being against it is because of what it says in the OT and NT. In addition, in Native American Spirituality is it also considered sinful. Native Spiritualism is a very strict code of conduct. It would be considered sinful for me to marry another member of Bear Clan (of which I am part, in the Chippewa Tribe). That is considered incest according to the Old Ways, despite whether or not there is actual blood relation. However, that belief is based on the way the society is structured, which is to say that all Bear Clan are kin, and all Wolf Clan are kin and so on and so forth. Traditional Marriage according to this structured belief system often involves (for example) a male member of Wolf Clan marrying a female member of Bear Clan, and the male member becomes a member of Bear Clan through marriage. Their children cannot marry Bear Clan. (Sorry to go off on that tangent, I thought a little further explaination was needed as many are infamiliar with Native Spiritualism).

I digress, similar to this concept it says in the OT (Gen 2:24) that "A man shall leave his family and cleave unto his wife and together they shall become one flesh." In Gen 1:27, God created Adam and Eve...not literally from his rib, but symbolically from his side to be at his side (as Lillith refused for those who have studied the Apocrypha), which defines that type of companionship existing between a man and a woman. Jesus, in Matt 19:6 "Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder." I could go on, but I think the point is clear.

Now, we could argue that Jesus didn't go into great detail about whether or not homosexuality was a sin. However, I think the whole point in Jesus's teachings was to change various laws that were written in the OT, to establish the church, etc. One of those laws being: rather than "an eye for an eye," "turn the other cheek." Much of this is up to individual interpretation. My personal interpretation is that Jesus didn't need to re-teach something that was already taught, and God had punished mankind numerous times previously (The time of the Flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, etc.) for behavior that he considers and "abomination."

As I said, I am in no way trying to offend. This forum is about personal viewpoints and mine is just different than some. I consider myself a follower of God and Jesus, and so long as marriage between gays and lesbians is sinful in their eyes, it is also in mine. But then again, that doesn't mean I dislike people who choose to live their life style their own way. We are, after all posting in a Gothic Forum...right?

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

That's because there isn't one.

You're right. It is based on religious belief and that alone.

Deviant- perhaps rather than asking people what good reason there is, that doesn't involve religion...maybe you should ask whichever God you pray to.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

Deviant-
It is challenging to explain my religion in it's entirety, because it is self-defined. I DO think for myself. Largely it is based on Christianity, but also blended with Zen Buddhism and Native American Spirituality. Overall, my reason for being against it is because of what it says in the OT and NT. In addition, in Native American Spirituality is it also considered sinful. Native Spiritualism is a very strict code of conduct. It would be considered sinful for me to marry another member of Bear Clan (of which I am part, in the Chippewa Tribe). That is considered incest according to the Old Ways, despite whether or not there is actual blood relation. However, that belief is based on the way the society is structured, which is to say that all Bear Clan are kin, and all Wolf Clan are kin and so on and so forth. Traditional Marriage according to this structured belief system often involves (for example) a male member of Wolf Clan marrying a female member of Bear Clan, and the male member becomes a member of Bear Clan through marriage. Their children cannot marry Bear Clan. (Sorry to go off on that tangent, I thought a little further explaination was needed as many are infamiliar with Native Spiritualism).

Weren't there multiple Native American religions, though? I'm not saying that there was one that didn't condemn homosexuality, but just wondering, as I've always read of multiple Gods.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

"I think they're wrong, but me and faggots have loads of fun!"

Wow. You grossly missed the point. I am entitled to my beliefs, and so are others. Just because someone believes something different than I do...it doesn't mean that I have to "hate" that person or even dislike them. Furthermore, it doesn't give me the right to judge them- for any reason, and vice versa the same.

Though I suppose that maybe only people who can understand what it means not to judge someone can understand why it is possible for my gay friends and I to maintain a good friendship.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

Weren't there multiple Native American religions, though? I'm not saying that there was one that didn't condemn homosexuality, but just wondering, as I've always read of multiple Gods.

There were, and this is based on my tribe specifically. My tribe did not have multiple Gods, but in fact one Creator, who is typically called The Grandfather or the White Buffalo.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

There were, and this is based on my tribe specifically. My tribe did not have multiple Gods, but in fact one Creator, who is typically called The Grandfather or the White Buffalo.

Is this the same as the Great Spirit? I heard a white buffalo was born... a few years back, I think? That was pretty interesting.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

Is this the same as the Great Spirit? I heard a white buffalo was born... a few years back, I think? That was pretty interesting.

Yes, another name is The Great Spirit. My tribe in particular tends to refer to the deity as The Creator. No matter what name you want to call The Creator, in most Native cultures, the deity is based on the same basic idea, there were just different factions like there are in Chrisitianity (Catholics, Baptists, etc.)

[viscus]

No matter how fervently you believe something, it doesn't make you right. If I were to tell you that I believed the cloudless midday sky was red, or I believed every woman should be shot immediately after weening her first child, are you really going to just tell me "well you're entitled to your beliefs?"

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

Do you people really believe this bullshit? Seriously?

Yes. Yes.

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

Or are you just trying to point out vague bible references to homosexuality in order to prove some pointless point?

If you had read the entire thread you would see that we are now discussing the answer to Jillian's question of whether or not the New Testament supercedes the Old Testament (which it does in some areas).

If you try reading the bible you can determine for yourself whether or not the references are vague. Try finding out for yourself. It isn't much more reading than Homer's Odyssey or Asimov's Foundation series. Then you can knowingly argue against it.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

I want to know something for the record too:
Where does the New Testament say it supersedes the Old one?
I've never known.

She just said it's in Galatians.
You can probably google it easily.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

Now, Romans condemns both gay/lesbian behavior, but nowhere in the Bible is sperm considered sacred, and I've never read a passage - and I've read through the entire book - where masturbation is condemned.

It's in there.
It says it's wrong to "spill your seed into the dust" or something.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

There were, and this is based on my tribe specifically. My tribe did not have multiple Gods, but in fact one Creator, who is typically called The Grandfather or the White Buffalo.

What tribe is this?

[Saya]

Originally Posted by ~~Auriel~~

It is challenging to explain my religion in it's entirety, because it is self-defined. I DO think for myself. Largely it is based on Christianity, but also blended with Zen Buddhism and Native American Spirituality.

May I ask you a question? I think its fine to blend religions, but the heart of Zen is that one has to say "I know nothing," and work from there. Teachers normally abhor students putting a lot of stock into religious texts, rather students are encouraged to question, question, question, and work it out for themselves through koan study and meditation. "Our teachings are a finger pointing to the moon, woe to he who mistakes the finger for the moon." Historically Zen is absolutely fine with homosexuality. And Buddhism in general shuns dualistic thinking like "good" and "evil". Buddha also preached that if you believe in something very strongly its bad, because you won't realize the truth when it comes knocking at your door (see the story about the father and his son who he thought was dead).

So how do you console those two beliefs? In one you will believe whatever is written, but the other seeks to destroy that kind of thinking.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

on a more human level, one of my friends once said, "Yeah, some people are created predisposed towards homosexuality. Well, I'm predisposed towards adultery. That doesn't mean I get to screw whoever I want."

I find it interesting that people are so hung up on not having sex with others of the same gender. Heck, if you want to be offended, be offended about the fact that the Bible also condemns adultery and sex before marriage. A lot more people break those commandments than the ones regarding gays. Sheesh.

Homosexuality isn't just about fucking people of the same gender love comes into play as well. How would you feel loving someone will all your heart and being condemned for it?

Plus there is absolutely no biological foundation for someone being a slut or having a high sex drive (not to say that all people with a sex drive are sluts), but there is a biological difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Plus there is absolutely no biological foundation for someone being a slut or having a high sex drive (not to say that all people with a sex drive are sluts), but there is a biological difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals.

WOAH
BACK UP
THE GAY GENE IS A THEORY
THE-OR-Y
IT IS NOT FACT, DO NOT PARADE IT AS FACT

Damn.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by JCC

WOAH
BACK UP
THE GAY GENE IS A THEORY
THE-OR-Y
IT IS NOT FACT, DO NOT PARADE IT AS FACT

Damn.

They turned a fruit fly gay by messing with it's genes, it was amusing.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by viscus

No matter how fervently you believe something, it doesn't make you right. If I were to tell you that I believed the cloudless midday sky was red, or I believed every woman should be shot immediately after weening her first child, are you really going to just tell me "well you're entitled to your beliefs?"

That's exactly what I'm going to tell you. I'm not claiming to be right or wrong on the subject either. I'm stating my opinion and answering questions brought up about it.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Saya

May I ask you a question? I think its fine to blend religions, but the heart of Zen is that one has to say "I know nothing," and work from there. Teachers normally abhor students putting a lot of stock into religious texts, rather students are encouraged to question, question, question, and work it out for themselves through koan study and meditation. "Our teachings are a finger pointing to the moon, woe to he who mistakes the finger for the moon." Historically Zen is absolutely fine with homosexuality. And Buddhism in general shuns dualistic thinking like "good" and "evil". Buddha also preached that if you believe in something very strongly its bad, because you won't realize the truth when it comes knocking at your door (see the story about the father and his son who he thought was dead).

So how do you console those two beliefs? In one you will believe whatever is written, but the other seeks to destroy that kind of thinking.

Christianity also says, "The wise man knows that he knows nothing." I believe in the questioning aspect of that and working it out for myself.
Like I said it is a blend...I don't believe in all aspects of Zen Buddhism, which is why it is so difficult to explain. I do believe in the concept of nirvana and reaching enlightenment through mediation.
Basically I believe certain things to be True, I can't categorize my belief in re-incarnation through Christianity, nor can I categorize my belief in "good" and "evil" through Zen. However, Zen is a little different than traditional Buddhism.
I don't think that to believe in something very strongly is exactly the hinderance that Buddhism describes, but it depends on the individual. In order to achieve enlightenment, nirvana, oneness with the Creator, or to go to heaven you must be devoted and devotion in itself implies strong belief. Strong belief is does not have to be blinding, but it can be. So there is a lesson there. Strong beliefs should not cloud your perception of Truth and Reality, both of which aren't often kind.
It's not that I believe whatever is written. I was raised to question everything. I can't believe everything that is written in the Bible because it was written by men and memories of men. Both men (Buddha included) and memory are failable. It's the core underlying principles that are common through out the scriptures and the commonalities that exist in every religion that stand out to me. The Ten Commandments, The Ten Teachings of The Grandfather, The Golden Rule. MOST religions have these same concepts. Even the Norse God Odin was crucified and pierced by a spear, in the same manner as Jesus. In my lifetime, I have researched and evaluated various religions and found different concepts from various ones that fits with my own general idea of things. While those 3 religions are the ones that I can mostly describe as being close to what I believe, it's not something that can be easily described as it doesn't follow the norm of any existing religion. It is only comparable to those, and is largely based on Chrisitanity. In order for you to understand I would seriously have to write messages far longer than this one to explain each bit separately.
And honestly (Saya this isn't directed at you), if you have a problem with what I believe that's totally fine. Let's not sit here and judge or mock me because of them.

This thread is about State Laws and Props that passed or didn't pass.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by JCC

WOAH
BACK UP
THE GAY GENE IS A THEORY
THE-OR-Y
IT IS NOT FACT, DO NOT PARADE IT AS FACT

Damn.

~~Seconded~~

[ionic_angel]

Originally Posted by Solumina

Homosexuality isn't just about fucking people of the same gender love comes into play as well. How would you feel loving someone will all your heart and being condemned for it?

Plus there is absolutely no biological foundation for someone being a slut or having a high sex drive (not to say that all people with a sex drive are sluts), but there is a biological difference between homosexuals and heterosexuals.

Wait wait wait...what?

I'm pretty sure I've seen a lot of scientists justify non-monogamous behavior as gene-driven reproductive behavior. Doesn't mean I have to accept it morally, as a part of my religion.

Besides, where did I say you have to be a Christian? If someone wants to screw someone else of the same gender, I'm not stopping them. I'm merely pointing out that it's damn hard to argue that you are a Christian at the same time. Kind of how it's hard to argue that you are a good Buddhist if you go around being a mercenary (at least according to Saya).

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by JCC

WOAH
BACK UP
THE GAY GENE IS A THEORY
THE-OR-Y
IT IS NOT FACT, DO NOT PARADE IT AS FACT

Damn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
Want fries with your education?

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by ionic_angel

*Snip*

Besides, where did I say you have to be a Christian? If someone wants to screw someone else of the same gender, I'm not stopping them. I'm merely pointing out that it's damn hard to argue that you are a Christian at the same time. Kind of how it's hard to argue that you are a good Buddhist if you go around being a mercenary (at least according to Saya).

It's actually not hard to argue that point. If you are Christian that means you follow the teachings of Christ which means you also believe "Judge not lest ye be judged." It's ok to think it is wrong, but passing judgment on someone is an entirely different story.

[~~Auriel~~]

Originally Posted by Albert Mond

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
Want fries with your education?

Lol, yes I would like some fries! That was an interesting article. I found another one at the bottom of the page that I thought was also interesting:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biology...al_orientation