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Old 10-26-2013, 10:09 AM   #26
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S'okay hon, you can have privileges and still be a good person. Understanding them can help us all see why some other folks from marginalized groups may find certain slurs unsettling and that's something that can assist one in being an even better, more thoughtful person.
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Old 10-26-2013, 10:45 AM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
A thread that veered wildly away from the direction I had originally intended.
Oh, I meant that your apologies suck. You say the words and then totally disregard any lessons to be learned from it. You complain about the discrimination of being Atheist, yet disregard anyone elses problems as being as legit. Or, in most cases worst. Look, I'm an Athiest, i get it, people do indeed act at times violent torwards you, simply for a dissagreament in religion. But, I'm also bi and transsexual and present myself as female, even though I am still pre-op and have strong male physical attributes.

I can't say for your expietence, because I'm not you, but being Atheist doesn't even register on the amount of shit I get for myself. Right now, I'm actually pretty lucky, because I have the capability of being in the closet with evething that I am. I get to hide to stay safe, which a lot of people don't get.

You're white, a gender congruent m ale, and straight. That is all the privilege in the world. Complain as much as you want about your hardships, it's okay. But, under no circumstances can you compare yourself, and think you have it harder, to those who don't get to even pass as the majority. Their hardships are something you can never understand, and they have to live with those hardships everyday of their lives. You only have to deal with your hardships when they get brought up. Which, still sucks, I know.

As for the slurs. Fuck man. I can't stand the word "fag", i am literally traumitized by it, i understand the context you used it in, and i'm not saying that particular time you used it was wrong. But, later in your post you used other slurs, and in relation to my disposition with the word "fag", i'm hoping you'll understand the importance of not ising slurs at all.
That perhaps, people are actually offended by the use of such words that demeans their being. Even if it's not particularly directed at them. That they are still affected by them.


( on a side note, i remembered why i don't post as much anymore, using a cellphone for this crap is hard. My screen keeps changing direction in the middle of my paragraphs and i loose my train of thought by the time i fix the fucking thing. Also damn typos...)

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Old 10-26-2013, 12:08 PM   #28
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Creed of Heresy, everybody that has posted in this thread is irreligious to different degrees. Actually, most of this forum is, and most of the people who aren't have dabbled with it. Our experiences with it are sometimes different, but we try to understand that our individual experience is not the totality from it being a part of our lives. You mentioned being assaulted because you are an atheist, and we believe you. It's the exact opposite of my experience as an atheist; I've never hidden that part about me, I've never been persecuted for it, my mother is Christian and still loves the ever living shit out of me and respects my decision, I've never even gotten into a full blown argument where I defend myself for it, much less physically attacked. With all of that, I STILL BELIEVE YOU. I recognize that my experience is not the default or the standard.

Now fucking listen. You don't have a god damned fucking clue what it's like to be a woman or queer or trans. You have absolutely no fucking idea what it means when someone says "I had to use my white voice". When you made this thread and bitched about people making fun of your stupid clothes, nobody said that it was bullshit, or implied that you were making it up. When you talked about being attacked for being an atheist, nobody doubted you and said that your experience is bullshit because it's never happened to some of us. But when Solumina says that it's way harder for her to deal with being a women, with being queer, then it is for her to be irreligious, you said it was bullshit and then you fucking mansplain what real oppression is like. You don't even fucking know what the fuck it's like. There are so many things that people deal with that you don't even have to think about, that you've probably never even thought about at all, and you just dismiss and marginalize them because they aren't your problems so they must be made up or exaggerated.

I fucking wish that the best thing I could think of to show people how I'm being treated unfairly is that 8 states have a law (that hasn't been enforced in over 60 years) that says people (who admit to being) like me can't hold office.

Apologize to Solumina. Her experience is not bullshit. You're over here competing in the Oppression Olympics while she's being real with you.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:28 PM   #29
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I think my favourite part is when he implied women can't be gay or atheist.
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Old 10-26-2013, 02:32 PM   #30
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Sometimes I wonder if the whole "being atheist is worse than being a gay Muslim black transwoman" mentality stems from white straight cismen suddenly finding an area in life where they aren't top dog.
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:28 PM   #31
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Okay, everyone, this is gonna be a long one, but before you read a part that might chap your ass and decide to hit the end button to immediately rail against me for that point, instead stop and read the rest of the post, chances are that will be addressed.

Versus, lemme quote your original message.

Quote:
This is a special kind of douche bag. The one that says being white isn't much of a thing, that thinks he doesn't have strait privilege because he said LGBT are people too once, and that volunteers at a fucking rcc and can still say "Look woman, at least you're not an athiest."
You put words into my mouth, and jumped to wild conclusions. Do tell me; when did I say being white "isn't that much of a thing?" When did I say I don't benefit much from being straight just because I support LGBTs? I said "it kind of gets muddied up," which is to say that while I have the privileges legally, from time to time that does still catch me some flak socially. I dunno how the fuck you jumped from "it gets kind of muddied" to "I don't benefit much." And as far as the RCC volunteering goes? It's not just women who get *****, and when DID I say "look, woman, at least you're not an atheist" wherein the context you seem to be implying is that I would do so is to someone who just got sexually assaulted? I volunteer at an RCC, and yet for some reason I seem to be under the weird misconception that it's not only women who get sexually assaulted! I wonder why that might be? Maybe it's because I've dealt with OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES, TOO? Maybe not every person to call in is a woman! Maybe they're children! Or teenagers! Maybe it's adults...and maybe all of those age groups tend to also be of all genderal groups, too! Unthinkable, isn't it? Thing is, the guys who come in are the ones who are most desperate to be assured that their names and identities won't be released and that I will not go to the cops or anyone else with the details. Why don't you hear about guys being *****, and why wouldn't they want anyone to know, and why wouldn't they want to pursue prosecution? Think about it for a few minutes and you might get an idea of the reason for it.

Undeniably, however, women are the higher end of the balance who call or walk in. I am not stating that the realities of the situation are, well, not reality. I AM, however, pointing out that any claim of absolutes is not true, that there are always exceptions or aberrations, or misconceptions. As I've already admitted, I myself am guilty of making misconceptions, I do it all the time, but I try to correct myself. I even caught myself on this one and genuinely expressed that I wish I could edit what I said out of my original post because I realize how and why it was wrong. But your response is to desperately latch on to whatever thing I say and to blow every bit of it wildly out of proportion and context, and to say "I don't think I would want to [accept your apology]." Speaks volumes about who you are. Rather than being able to be the bigger man and accept the apology, remain calm, and continue to point out the fallacies in what I am saying or ask for clarification if something seems contradictory, you instead let your own emotions take total control over you and resort to ad hominems and false attributions. You stooped to my level. Why would you want to do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Murder.Of.Crows View Post
Oh, I meant that your apologies suck. You say the words and then totally disregard any lessons to be learned from it. You complain about the discrimination of being Atheist, yet disregard anyone elses problems as being as legit. Or, in most cases worst. Look, I'm an Athiest, i get it, people do indeed act at times violent torwards you, simply for a dissagreament in religion. But, I'm also bi and transsexual and present myself as female, even though I am still pre-op and have strong male physical attributes.
I complained about being discriminated as an atheist because I misunderstood what Versus had said. He asked if I were gay or an ethnic minority, and I took to thinking he was implying I did not know what being discriminated against was like. I have not disregarded anyone's problems as being as legit, and if it has seemed as such then clearly I am doing a terrible job of trying to properly explain what I mean. The entire point of my post was to show that I hate people who make assumptions of others based on a single detail gleaned from them. Clothing is one way, yes, but there are other things, single little things, that others learn about others and instantly jump to conclusions as to who they are. Being gay or a woman or an atheist, or any combination of that group? There's tons of people who form all sorts of bullshit conclusions about you before they learn anything else about you.

I won't lie, I actually had a huge set of misconceptions about transgenders and transsexuals throughout my entire life. I thought they were mentally or emotionally deficient. This changed only two years, when I met a couple of them on another forum I frequent. I had never really had a chance to talk to any kinds of trans individuals before that. All that I had known about them had come from the biased opinions of others that I had simply taken to meaning to be true. I came to realize within a short time that there was nothing wrong with them. They were just people who didn't feel comfortable with the bodies they'd been given.

Quote:
I can't say for your expietence, because I'm not you, but being Atheist doesn't even register on the amount of shit I get for myself. Right now, I'm actually pretty lucky, because I have the capability of being in the closet with evething that I am. I get to hide to stay safe, which a lot of people don't get.
You are correct here, too. And I understand, now, I DID make it out like being an atheist is the worst thing there is erroneously.

The more you buck social norms and what society thinks is "good" or "right," even if what you are doing is harmless to others, and does nothing to affect their lives, the more hatred and bigotry people will pile upon you.

I used to be one of those people. That cancerous aspect of my personality and who I am still hasn't been fully cut away, and it clearly shows from time to time. I am trying to be accepting, to be empathetic. I just spent a very long time fighting tooth and nail just to survive and get from one day to the next that for the longest time I never really considered the plights of others. I always thought the subjective cruelty others suffered was inferior to my own. It was only after I was able to start living my life on my own terms that I began to understand that there are a lot of other forms of cruelty and they're all damaging in their own way, and for different reasons.

I've been trying to learn that, and understand it, over the last seven years. For the rest of the time of my life, I didn't endure physical, mental, and emotional abuse, or sexual violation, or deprivation of sustenance, social interaction, and activity because I was one thing or another, I just simply did. Not all at once, but in bursts, lengths of time that could be as short as a few weeks, or as long as years. Some of it endured until I hit 18 and got out of foster care. But I've been trying to understand what it's also been like for others who have had their own experiences of hell at the hands of others.

So, yes. I made a miscalculation in my comparison. It was fallacious, and I apologize for that, too.

Quote:
You're white, a gender congruent m ale, and straight. That is all the privilege in the world. Complain as much as you want about your hardships, it's okay. But, under no circumstances can you compare yourself, and think you have it harder, to those who don't get to even pass as the majority. Their hardships are something you can never understand, and they have to live with those hardships everyday of their lives. You only have to deal with your hardships when they get brought up. Which, still sucks, I know.
Eh, I haven't really seen any benefits from those privileges, but then I've never really been in a position where I could.

Or maybe I have, and I just don't realize it. Certainly a possibility.
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Old 10-26-2013, 09:32 PM   #32
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As for the slurs. Fuck man. I can't stand the word "fag", i am literally traumitized by it, i understand the context you used it in, and i'm not saying that particular time you used it was wrong. But, later in your post you used other slurs, and in relation to my disposition with the word "fag", i'm hoping you'll understand the importance of not ising slurs at all.
That perhaps, people are actually offended by the use of such words that demeans their being. Even if it's not particularly directed at them. That they are still affected by them.
Understandable. Such was not my intent to cause that sort of pain, quite the opposite. But frustration clouds judgment, I suppose. I've been frustrated every reply I've made. The recent posts by Solumina and now you actually calmed me down and caused me to consider back on what I've said and how I've reacted. One step of frustration to the next. It's not the first time this sort of thing has happened, I strongly suspect it won't be the last, either. At least they don't happen nearly as much as they used to.

Quote:
( on a side note, i remembered why i don't post as much anymore, using a cellphone for this crap is hard. My screen keeps changing direction in the middle of my paragraphs and i loose my train of thought by the time i fix the fucking thing. Also damn typos...)
You're telling me. I sell the damn things for a living, and my job actually REQUIRES me to own and use a smart-phone for inter-business emailing, time-clocking, and other activities that could be more easily done with a computer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by versus
Creed of Heresy, everybody that has posted in this thread is irreligious to different degrees. Actually, most of this forum is, and most of the people who aren't have dabbled with it. Our experiences with it are sometimes different, but we try to understand that our individual experience is not the totality from it being a part of our lives. You mentioned being assaulted because you are an atheist, and we believe you. It's the exact opposite of my experience as an atheist; I've never hidden that part about me, I've never been persecuted for it, my mother is Christian and still loves the ever living shit out of me and respects my decision, I've never even gotten into a full blown argument where I defend myself for it, much less physically attacked. With all of that, I STILL BELIEVE YOU. I recognize that my experience is not the default or the standard.
I could bring up dozens of blogs about people who came out as atheists and were immediately disowned by their families...or even outright abused for it. You are correct, though. Experiences are very subjective. One may suffer for the same problems that another does not, vice versa, neither may suffer, or both may suffer. It is fallacious of me to assume that I have it harder than others because of one simple reason, or that they may have it harder or easier either way because of different reasons.

Quote:
Originally Posted by versus
Now fucking listen. You don't have a god damned fucking clue what it's like to be a woman or queer or trans. You have absolutely no fucking idea what it means when someone says "I had to use my white voice". When you made this thread and bitched about people making fun of your stupid clothes, nobody said that it was bullshit, or implied that you were making it up. When you talked about being attacked for being an atheist, nobody doubted you and said that your experience is bullshit because it's never happened to some of us. But when Solumina says that it's way harder for her to deal with being a women, with being queer, then it is for her to be irreligious, you said it was bullshit and then you fucking mansplain what real oppression is like. You don't even fucking know what the fuck it's like. There are so many things that people deal with that you don't even have to think about, that you've probably never even thought about at all, and you just dismiss and marginalize them because they aren't your problems so they must be made up or exaggerated.
See my above reply to Murder; I imagine you will have read it already, however. It's difficult to be empathetic when you spend your entire growing life in a situation like that. Just look at a lot of inner city individuals for that. Some turn out good. Many turn out completely apathetic to the concept of understanding. Hell, you don't need to look to inner cities. You can find that just about anywhere.

I only started volunteering at the RCC about a year ago. I only became a humanist about two years ago. I was an atheist of the nihilistic variety up until four years ago. During that time the only people I exhibited any kind of care to were my friends and my brothers. I was completely apathetic to nearly everyone else. After a while, my own bigotry and misconceptions started to crack as I began to come to know more and more people from groups I had once been indoctrinated into believing were "immoral" or "wrong" or "unequal." The only two groups I had ever really not had any bias against were gays [this level of acceptance was still rather low, however] and darker-skinned people [largely because I spent so much of my life with them constantly present].

The more the cracks began to widen, the more I began to realize how very wrong I was, and had been. The more I exposed myself to the parts of society that I had spent so long being told were intrinsically "bad," the more I came to realize there was nothing bad about that which supposedly made them bad.

Maybe three, four years at most, of trying to buck these misconceptions later... I have come to realize none of the vile claims are true, and I strive for all to be treated as equals to everyone else.

And yet...you are quite correct. To me, you are TOO correct, uncomfortably so. There is something in my mind, in my personality, that keeps holding to a bias, to a need to downplay what others endure.

I don't know why. Is it because of my own subjective experiences of my past? Am I still under the impression that because I had to experience so much trauma, that the trauma others endure must be inferior? Or is it some of that brainwashing, that early-conceived bias that is still holding on for dear life? I hope it's just a lingering bit of bias, because that...THAT, I can do away with with a bit more time and discussion. But if it's the former, that means somewhere in the back of my head I'm listening to others describing the horrific trauma they've experienced and comparing it to mine and finding it inferior. Even if I'm not consciously aware of it...

Ongoing therapy would get rid of that. I hope.

Well. Either way.

Solumina, I apologize. I did not intend to state that your situation is bullshit. To anyone else to whom this applies, I did not mean to imply that I am discriminated against more than you. Even if it seems like I all but directly stated as such, it was not what I intended, and I do not truly feel that way.

Well. I hope I don't feel that way, anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
Sometimes I wonder if the whole "being atheist is worse than being a gay Muslim black transwoman" mentality stems from white straight cismen suddenly finding an area in life where they aren't top dog.
Yes, I was totally a top dog before I was an atheist, with the world handed to me on a silver fucking platter. The studies and findings in that sociology report I posted a link to was totally written by straight white cisgender athei- Oh wait no it wasn't, it was written by an Indian, a woman, and a white Christian male and undertaken by a widely-varied group of individuals...

Now, if it had included multiple varieties of what kind of individuals were least trusted/most disliked, say, atheist and gay, or female and gay, or black trans, or muslim woman, the results may have become very different...but it did not. It focused only on a single aspect; which single aspect about someone would people focus more on regarding how they could be trusted, embraced, and/or accepted? Being an atheist was what most people said they disapproved of the most.

That said, I imagine the more you add on top of that, the worse and worse it gets. I also imagine you DON'T need to be an atheist in order to receive all sorts of bias and bigotry, hell, being just one of the other things could still earn you such diatribe and hatred from others; the study did not say 100% for atheists, it said 40% of those polled replied that above all others they viewed atheists as being least compatible with their opinion on being valid within American society, and 48% responded that above all others, they would distrust an atheist the most. And then those polled stated that given the choice between giving a kidney to either an atheist or a Christian, both in equal need, most of them stated they would give it to the Christian. But yet...not 100%.

And it's a study. Not a census. So...take it with a grain of salt and all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by saya
I think my favourite part is when he implied women can't be gay or atheist.
I think my favorite part there is when you committed contextomy.
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:27 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
Do tell me; when did I say being white "isn't that much of a thing?"
You didn't say that. You didn't say much about it, which is the point.

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Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
When did I say I don't benefit much from being straight just because I support LGBTs?
When you used the discrimination of the LGBT community to down-play your privilege. Your privilege is not muddied. You are not Jesus. You do not take the pain of being gay into yourself by supporting LGBT rights.

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Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
... and when DID I say "look, woman, at least you're not an atheist"
Every time that you say being an atheist is more difficult than being female, or down-played women's oppression. You did it a few times in this thread and I don't really care to count and quote.

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Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
Maybe not every person to call in is a woman! Maybe they're children! Or teenagers! Maybe it's adults...and maybe all of those age groups tend to also be of all genderal groups, too! Unthinkable, isn't it?
I'm tracking that anybody can become the victim of sexual assault. I'm tracking that men make it more difficult for other men to get help. That doesn't change the fact that men as a whole do not live under the daily threat. Every time somebody says "but men can be the victims of ****, too!" in response to "women have to live with sexual assault" counts as down-playing women's oppression, by the way.

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Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
I even caught myself on this one and genuinely expressed that I wish I could edit what I said out of my original post because I realize how and why it was wrong. But your response is to desperately latch on to whatever thing I say and to blow every bit of it wildly out of proportion and context,
So what you did was wrong, but not that wrong? Am I understanding that correctly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
and to say "I don't think I would want to [accept your apology]." Speaks volumes about who you are.
No it fucking doesn't. I didn't even say that to you. Anybody on this forum knows what I said was "I don't think I even want to [deal with this right now.]"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
Rather than being able to be the bigger man and accept the apology, remain calm, and continue to point out the fallacies in what I am saying or ask for clarification if something seems contradictory, you instead let your own emotions take total control over you and resort to ad hominems and false attributions.
My anger, however unpleasant it is for you to deal with, has nothing to do with the validity of my argument. My anger is an appropriate reaction and it's not for you to determine when I'm allowed to express it. I don't owe you a calm conversation and you sure as fuck aren't entitled to your apology being accepted at face value. You're the one that did something wrong, not me. This is your privilege and entitlement showing, so don't fucking tell me how to respond to this.

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Originally Posted by Creed of Heresy View Post
Eh, I haven't really seen any benefits from those privileges, but then I've never really been in a position where I could.

Or maybe I have, and I just don't realize it. Certainly a possibility.
This is why Solumina said that you need to be aware of your privilege, and as much of what that entails as you can. It keeps you from shitting on people without your advantages, like you just did to Murder of Crows. She could tell you why better then I can, but again, it's her decision to decide how to deal with what you said. She could snap your head off, she could level with you, she could decide it's not worth her time or sanity to educate or yell at you and just ignore it. All are valid responses.

Everything else aside, one of my frustrations is that I don't immediately know how to deal with people like you. Part of me wants to help you understand, part of me is convinced that you're not worth how fucking hard it is. I'll just say that I'm volatile and feel like the others have a better chance of reaching you (again, whether they try is their decision) so I'll be away from this thread until I make my own determination.
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Old 10-27-2013, 01:51 AM   #34
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I'm not the only one who appreciates the irony that thts thread started tentatively as a rant of indignation about how other people are so presumptuous and so quick to misjudge, but this dude immediately went to the defense and to trying to present himself as some martyr instead of trying to see what other people have to say?
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Old 10-27-2013, 04:35 AM   #35
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Well, Versus, regardless if you're stepping back, I'll still reply.

Having given it some thought after I read Murder's post and replied, I at least can recognize where being straight has offered me privileges that have given me an advantage, namely the social kind. And given the current state of affairs in legalization of marriage between same-sex couples, I can definitely agree, were I to want to be married, as it stands, I would have a supremely easier time of it than I would were my partner a male as well. Were I something other than heterosexual and I came out of the closet to family members, I know amongst mine they wouldn't really care either way, but the same cannot be said of others. I've read too many stories about people disowning their children for simply being honest about who they are.

Were I woman, I would be at substantially higher risk of sexual assault, and there is still the "domestic stance" obnoxiously prevalent in society. There are expectations placed on women that are not placed on men. However, I would like to point out that the reverse is also true, but to the same extent? I can't say for sure either way, but I don't think it is. The double-standard fallacy of sexually-active woman = shunned for being a slut, sexually-active man = lauded for being a "player" comes to mind, for example.

Being white? Well, given where I come from, I actually saw that more of a hindrance than a help, to be frank. But from an objective standpoint, there is certainly persisting feelings of negativity from large numbers of caucasians, who are the majority in this country, towards "non-whites." That negativity manifests itself as distrust, stereotyping, and bias. While it exists within the other "racial" groups, they are, key-point here, not the majority of the population, which affects their social and political standing negatively in the face of the discrimination from the group that is the majority.

Have I directly benefited from these privileges? I can't honestly say I believe I have, but again, is it possible and I just don't recognize when I have? Yep. I suppose if I thought back, I could find some instances where I have, and over the next day or so, I think I'll do that when I have time for introspection.

Quote:
Originally Posted by alan
I'm not the only one who appreciates the irony that thts thread started tentatively as a rant of indignation about how other people are so presumptuous and so quick to misjudge, but this dude immediately went to the defense and to trying to present himself as some martyr instead of trying to see what other people have to say?
Stop harping about what I was saying on the first page of the thread, I've readily admitted my ignorance and have been trying to see what people are saying since. Just because I'm not getting it immediately doesn't mean I'm not trying, you snide little shit.
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Old 10-27-2013, 05:07 AM   #36
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Also. If I did shit all over Murder, to paraphrase, if it hasn't been made clear yet by the half-dozen times I've said as much, my intentions are not to do so. I've explained why this the idea of being privileged is so difficult for me to do. If you genuinely expect someone to completely 180 their perceptions within one or two forum posts you have some crazily unrealistic expectations. Doesn't mean I'm not trying to figure it out, but given what I've dealt with, telling me I'm privileged is a little fucking difficult to wrap my head around.

I can only explain it as, I don't feel privileged. Adding to the difficulty is the fact that, as you (Versus) and others have stated, I don't have any personal experience suffering from the biases of society in regards to those who are not straight, white, and/or male. I only have second-hand accounts; I don't have a full, from-their-own-eyes perspective. I've been too busy struggling to keep my own life held together with spit, sand, duct-tape and glue to try to fully appreciate it. My ignorance used to be willing. Now it's unintentional, and dammit I am fucking trying to understand it.

This is literally the first time in my life anyone has ever actually tried to get me to really try to understand on a personal, direct level just what exactly others with these disadvantages face in-depth and intricately, and what it means to have advantages that they don't have. Live most of your life in a constant struggle to just survive and get to the next day, it becomes a little difficult to fully grasp in what ways others struggle. I've acknowledged others without my privileges face uphill battles against ignorance and dogma, I've never really had much reason to see how I have advantages against them, at first because I was ignorant and dogmatic myself once upon a time, and later (now) because I simply want everyone to be treated as equals so long as what they do hurts nobody else nor impacts other peoples' lives negatively.

I haven't considered what my privileges entail because post-dogma and post-bigotry, I simply don't understand why anyone should be privileged over anyone else just because of their gender, sexual preferences, skin color, religious choices, upbringing, place of birth, so on and so on. The claims once made to justify putting others at a disadvantage I have come to realize are completely and totally wrong. Looking back, I still can't understand why I myself used to think they were anything but.

So to sum it up; I haven't considered the how, only the why, because the why is completely baffling. The how just never really seemed relevant to me.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:03 AM   #37
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You don't seem to realize the difference between systemic oppression and prejudice. Sure, goths are prejudiced against, furries are prejudiced against, atheists are prejudiced against, etc. But there isn't systemic oppression in place.

If you're white, did you know you're more likely to receive a kidney transplant, in faster time, and get a better quality kidney? Did you know when slavery was abolished, vagrancy laws were created to place more and more black people in prison so their labour could be exploited in prison? Did you know that 75% of bisexual women have been sexually assaulted? Most of ant-LGBT violence is against trans people?

You don't see how you benefit from it because its supposed to be a "fair" system, but its only fair to some people.
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:27 AM   #38
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Since you've stated that you're doing your best to understand, I would like to assist in that. I understand that these concepts are a little slippery at first, took me FOREVER to get them. So, I'd like to hop in and make a couple points. I hope this will help explain things a little better.

No one's saying that everyone who has privilege, has an easy life, or has everything handed to them on a silver platter. We all suffer and have unique problems brought on or exacerbated by the circumstances of our lives.

Anyone who belongs to a minority group tends to suffer at the hands of a majority group (even if some of the individual members of that majority group don't hold prejudices or malice towards related minority groups). The majority group in that case has a certain privilege related to that circumstance in their life where they belong to the majority group. The majority group benefits just by being a part of the majority group.

Understanding how every one's unique circumstances have an effect on their lives and views is part of the intersectionality of it all. Intersectionality is the acknowledgement that we all have our problems and we all work together to help lessen the oppression of others, especially in spaces where we are a part of a majority group.

Example, since we're both atheists we'll start with something easy, like religious privilege. Here in the U.S. it is totally a thing, especially if one is a part of a mainstream Christian religion. If one is a part of this majority group one benefits by feeling a part of the majority, more trust from fellow religious people, more likely to get support from other religious people and are assumed to have somewhat good character just for being religious. I'm sure you could help me with a litany of disadvantages that atheists face in mainstream society that are related to religious privilege, you've already mentioned that being openly atheist can hurt one's chances of being elected to office, we are assumed to be immoral and have bad character. Most religious people are completely unaware that they benefit from this system, if asked would likely say that they (as an individual) do not oppress people, most would obstinately deny that non-religious people suffer for not being religious, that is part of the religious privilege in play. The thing is that it's part of an overall cultural system and not due to individual action.

We can take this mutual understanding and use it to extend the idea to other marginalized minority groups, as long as we keep in mind that the problems associated will vary along with the prejudices and stereotypes associated with each group.

The best way to gain understanding of the problems faced by any group is to listen to people. There's no need to argue, no need to explain, just listen and keep things in mind. When one is part of a majority group and is an ally to a related minority group, one can speak out against stereotypes, slurs and prejudices that come up against that minority group, which bit by bit will help to change minds and alleviate oppression.

When I'm with a trans* person, I listen when they talk about what their lives are like. I don't know, so I listen to gain an understanding. You'd be surprised just how much hate trans* people get, there's a whole lot of mainstream allowance for cruelty and shunning merely based on one's trans status. When I'm with cis people (cis just means your gender matches your biological sex) and something ignorantly negative about trans* people comes up, I speak out and stand up as part of a majority group to help fight negative stereotypes, prejudice and violence against a marginalized group to which I am an ally.

When I'm with a non-white person, I just listen. I don't try to lecture about "reverse-racism" or relate about some obscure negative experience with some other random non-white person. I just listen. When I'm hanging out with white people, I speak out against casual racism (shitty remarks/jokes) so that people understand that these sorts of attitudes and behaviors are unacceptable.

Being queer, I face a lot of trepidation meeting new people. I never know who's going to be friendly or who's a homophobic bigot. There's always that tense moment where I'm just waiting for the hammer to fall, and that's just in light social interactions, it doesn't count the time I was assaulted for my sexual orientation. Now, when I talk about this stuff, I don't need any one explaining things away, I don't want to hear about how it's not that bad and its just like (insert random decently unrelated circumstance here). I'm just relating and would like to be heard without some straight person trying to tell me how it's just a little thing, because it isn't, when it's every fucking time.

These ideas are excellent tools, with which we may help each other work towards a better, more understanding community and a more equal world.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:07 PM   #39
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I'm a bit worn out at the moment, since what was supposed to be a day off mutated into my 17th straight day of working, so I'm gonna have to reply piecemeal instead of one large post. If someone's post isn't replied to, don't worry, I'll get to it as my brain lets me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya View Post
You don't seem to realize the difference between systemic oppression and prejudice. Sure, goths are prejudiced against, furries are prejudiced against, atheists are prejudiced against, etc. But there isn't systemic oppression in place.
I kind of get what is meant by systemic oppression vs. prejudice. The former is a legally institutionalized means, based and originating in prejudice, to force those society, or sects of society, view as "inferior" into disadvantageous positions, with the backing of political and legal authority. My view of prejudice is often that of the sinister potential beginnings of systemic oppression. Having seen what prejudice has a tendency to manifest into, well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya View Post
If you're white, did you know you're more likely to receive a kidney transplant, in faster time, and get a better quality kidney? Did you know when slavery was abolished, vagrancy laws were created to place more and more black people in prison so their labour could be exploited in prison? Did you know that 75% of bisexual women have been sexually assaulted? Most of ant-LGBT violence is against trans people?
The first one, I greatly suspected. Even if I didn't have statistical knowledge of it, I've seen enough enduring racism in American society to figure this was certainly the case. After looking up the statistics, my suspicions were, sadly, proven to be all too true. Being white means you have almost twice the likelihood to be referred for a kidney transplant to someone who was black. The second part...not entirely true, but only because a lack of specification. Vagrancy laws had existed for quite some time before that, with extremely harsh penalties. After the Civil War, though, most southern states implemented the "Black codes" which indeed were designed for specifically that reason. They were based in those pre-existing vagrancy laws, and used for the ends of the southern states, whose economy had been backed by slave labor. Sore losers...

The third, however, is not precisely true, though the rate is still far too high. Honestly, 1% would be too high regardless, but I digress. The actual rate of sexual assault against bisexual women is 46.1%, and 61.1% of all bisexual women had endured sexual assault, physical abusive, and/or stalking by a current/former partner. Granted, the sample size for straight women in this study was far larger than the ones for lesbians and bisexual women (9,709 included in study; 96.5% identified as straight, 2.2% and 1.3% for bisexuals and lesbians, respectively), so the sample might not be conclusive...but then...lesbians and straight women both reported less incidents of ****, abuse, and/or stalking, so... Either way, I understand what you're saying on this point all the same. Just my nitpicking for statistics and sources here, is all.

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You don't see how you benefit from it because its supposed to be a "fair" system, but its only fair to some people.
All too unpleasantly true.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:25 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ape descendant View Post
Since you've stated that you're doing your best to understand, I would like to assist in that. I understand that these concepts are a little slippery at first, took me FOREVER to get them. So, I'd like to hop in and make a couple points. I hope this will help explain things a little better.

No one's saying that everyone who has privilege, has an easy life, or has everything handed to them on a silver platter. We all suffer and have unique problems brought on or exacerbated by the circumstances of our lives.

Anyone who belongs to a minority group tends to suffer at the hands of a majority group (even if some of the individual members of that majority group don't hold prejudices or malice towards related minority groups). The majority group in that case has a certain privilege related to that circumstance in their life where they belong to the majority group. The majority group benefits just by being a part of the majority group.

Understanding how every one's unique circumstances have an effect on their lives and views is part of the intersectionality of it all. Intersectionality is the acknowledgement that we all have our problems and we all work together to help lessen the oppression of others, especially in spaces where we are a part of a majority group.

Example, since we're both atheists we'll start with something easy, like religious privilege. Here in the U.S. it is totally a thing, especially if one is a part of a mainstream Christian religion. If one is a part of this majority group one benefits by feeling a part of the majority, more trust from fellow religious people, more likely to get support from other religious people and are assumed to have somewhat good character just for being religious. I'm sure you could help me with a litany of disadvantages that atheists face in mainstream society that are related to religious privilege, you've already mentioned that being openly atheist can hurt one's chances of being elected to office, we are assumed to be immoral and have bad character. Most religious people are completely unaware that they benefit from this system, if asked would likely say that they (as an individual) do not oppress people, most would obstinately deny that non-religious people suffer for not being religious, that is part of the religious privilege in play. The thing is that it's part of an overall cultural system and not due to individual action.

We can take this mutual understanding and use it to extend the idea to other marginalized minority groups, as long as we keep in mind that the problems associated will vary along with the prejudices and stereotypes associated with each group.

The best way to gain understanding of the problems faced by any group is to listen to people. There's no need to argue, no need to explain, just listen and keep things in mind. When one is part of a majority group and is an ally to a related minority group, one can speak out against stereotypes, slurs and prejudices that come up against that minority group, which bit by bit will help to change minds and alleviate oppression.

When I'm with a trans* person, I listen when they talk about what their lives are like. I don't know, so I listen to gain an understanding. You'd be surprised just how much hate trans* people get, there's a whole lot of mainstream allowance for cruelty and shunning merely based on one's trans status. When I'm with cis people (cis just means your gender matches your biological sex) and something ignorantly negative about trans* people comes up, I speak out and stand up as part of a majority group to help fight negative stereotypes, prejudice and violence against a marginalized group to which I am an ally.

When I'm with a non-white person, I just listen. I don't try to lecture about "reverse-racism" or relate about some obscure negative experience with some other random non-white person. I just listen. When I'm hanging out with white people, I speak out against casual racism (shitty remarks/jokes) so that people understand that these sorts of attitudes and behaviors are unacceptable.

Being queer, I face a lot of trepidation meeting new people. I never know who's going to be friendly or who's a homophobic bigot. There's always that tense moment where I'm just waiting for the hammer to fall, and that's just in light social interactions, it doesn't count the time I was assaulted for my sexual orientation. Now, when I talk about this stuff, I don't need any one explaining things away, I don't want to hear about how it's not that bad and its just like (insert random decently unrelated circumstance here). I'm just relating and would like to be heard without some straight person trying to tell me how it's just a little thing, because it isn't, when it's every fucking time.

These ideas are excellent tools, with which we may help each other work towards a better, more understanding community and a more equal world.
This...this right here?

I. Wow.

I seriously thank you for your patience for writing this out, especially in response to me, after what I have said so far in this thread. I'll mull over your words for a while. I want to do more so right now, but, again, my brain is kind of just going "hrrrr."

I try to do largely the same things you do, but I admit to being complicit in also being guilty of doing some of the things you mention criticizing, like making jokes in poor taste at expense of others. Most of the time it's light-hearted and not intending [nor often even causing] insult, but...looking back on things I've said, with even just the merest brushing at my memory, I can think of at least a few occasions wherein what I said was not what would be called appropriate in regards.

This post, and this thread in general, is loaded with things I need to take into much greater consideration. I've stabilized my own life, I've begun to pursue a goal of greater understanding and empathy...it'd be intellectually, morally, and ethically dishonest of me if I did not take what has been said to heart.

Can't promise immediately absolute change (habits are tough little fuckers to break) but as you said...useful tools to have.
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Old 10-27-2013, 07:53 PM   #41
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[quote=Creed of Heresy;808006]I'm a bit worn out at the moment, since what was supposed to be a day off mutated into my 17th straight day of working, so I'm gonna have to reply piecemeal instead of one large post. If someone's post isn't replied to, don't worry, I'll get to it as my brain lets me.


Quote:
I kind of get what is meant by systemic oppression vs. prejudice. The former is a legally institutionalized means, based and originating in prejudice, to force those society, or sects of society, view as "inferior" into disadvantageous positions, with the backing of political and legal authority. My view of prejudice is often that of the sinister potential beginnings of systemic oppression. Having seen what prejudice has a tendency to manifest into, well...
There is a world of difference between the two and saying prejudice necessarily may lead into systemic oppression blurs the line. Most of the oppressions we're talking about are pretty old and established, hence why they're systemic.


Quote:
The first one, I greatly suspected. Even if I didn't have statistical knowledge of it, I've seen enough enduring racism in American society to figure this was certainly the case. After looking up the statistics, my suspicions were, sadly, proven to be all too true. Being white means you have almost twice the likelihood to be referred for a kidney transplant to someone who was black. The second part...not entirely true, but only because a lack of specification. Vagrancy laws had existed for quite some time before that, with extremely harsh penalties. After the Civil War, though, most southern states implemented the "Black codes" which indeed were designed for specifically that reason. They were based in those pre-existing vagrancy laws, and used for the ends of the southern states, whose economy had been backed by slave labor. Sore losers...
Are Prisons Obsolete? by Angela Davis is an excellent source on the systemic imprisonment of black people to continue exploitation.

Quote:
The third, however, is not precisely true, though the rate is still far too high. Honestly, 1% would be too high regardless, but I digress. The actual rate of sexual assault against bisexual women is 46.1%, and 61.1% of all bisexual women had endured sexual assault, physical abusive, and/or stalking by a current/former partner. Granted, the sample size for straight women in this study was far larger than the ones for lesbians and bisexual women (9,709 included in study; 96.5% identified as straight, 2.2% and 1.3% for bisexuals and lesbians, respectively), so the sample might not be conclusive...but then...lesbians and straight women both reported less incidents of ****, abuse, and/or stalking, so... Either way, I understand what you're saying on this point all the same. Just my nitpicking for statistics and sources here, is all.
Dude, not only am I queer and know what I'm talking about, I also volunteer at a **** crisis centre. The study I'm referring to is here: http://www.cdc.gov/ViolencePreventio...SOfindings.pdf

Quote:
Sexual Violence by
any Perpetrator
• The lifetime prevalence of ****
by any perpetrator was:

For women:

- Lesbian – 13.1%

- Bisexual – 46.1%

- Heterosexual – 17.4%

For men:

- Gay – numbers too small

to estimate
- Bisexual – numbers too small
to estimate
- Heterosexual – 0.7%
• The lifetime prevalence of
sexual violence other than
**** (including being made
to penetrate, sexual coercion,
unwanted sexual contact,
and non-contact unwanted
sexual experiences) by any
perpetrator was:

For women:

- Lesbian – 46.4%

- Bisexual – 74.9%

- Heterosexual – 43.3%

For men:

- Gay – 40.2%

- Bisexual – 47.4%

- Heterosexual – 20.8%
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:03 PM   #42
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Glad you're thinking about things and taking them into consideration. I hope you're able to rest up soon.
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Old 10-27-2013, 08:12 PM   #43
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Example, since we're both atheists we'll start with something easy, like religious privilege. Here in the U.S. it is totally a thing, especially if one is a part of a mainstream Christian religion. If one is a part of this majority group one benefits by feeling a part of the majority, more trust from fellow religious people, more likely to get support from other religious people and are assumed to have somewhat good character just for being religious. I'm sure you could help me with a litany of disadvantages that atheists face in mainstream society that are related to religious privilege, you've already mentioned that being openly atheist can hurt one's chances of being elected to office, we are assumed to be immoral and have bad character. Most religious people are completely unaware that they benefit from this system, if asked would likely say that they (as an individual) do not oppress people, most would obstinately deny that non-religious people suffer for not being religious, that is part of the religious privilege in play. The thing is that it's part of an overall cultural system and not due to individual action.

I think Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, etc being assaulted and killed know far better about oppression than most atheists. "Religious Privilege" erases the oppression of religious people in our society; white Christian churches have the power to oppress through their collective class and racial privileges. Even mainstream churches who lack, say, white privilege (such as black churches) do not have this kind of power.
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Old 10-27-2013, 09:44 PM   #44
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Ahh, my mistake. I didn't realize you too were an RCC volunteer. Most people I talk to outside the DCRCC tend to use sexual assault as a replacement term for r*pe, so I've kind of grown used to doing the same myself outside of it. Probably would've figured that you meant the RAINN defined form of sexual assault given the study's statistics if I wasn't at the point where someone might mistaken me for an actual zombie right now. I probably should sleep and then continue on when I'm more rested. I would, however, like to point out that in the muslim world, atheists actually do suffer quite heavily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrim...amic_countries It's worth noting, of course, that one born in a muslim nation would in all likelihood be raised as a muslim, and that they would become an atheist later, thus becoming "apostates" and subjected to imprisonment, physical punishment, and execution. Atheists in general tend to be a rather small group in highly religious nations, and trying to organize atheists, as it has been said by many, is like herding cats. In such nations, with such extreme penalties for denouncing your religion and becoming an atheist, I suspect rather strongly that the reason they seemingly don't suffer more is because they're less obvious, more secretive, and less organized than those of religious groups in other countries where such religious groups are assaulted and killed. Just something to consider. There's something to be said for hiding in the shadows to avoid being persecuted, especially in those kinds of nations. What there is to be said, though, is nothing good in reflection on those societies, and not just because of what is directed at so-called "apostates." Not saying you're wrong or anything, though; you did say "most," not "all."
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Old 10-27-2013, 11:19 PM   #45
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We could argue the finer points of it (which I really don't care to), but religious privilege is a thing. Though I would limit it to mainstream, christian religions here in the U.S. So perhaps using the term mainstream-religious privilege would have been better.

I certainly agree that minority religions lack the kind of privilege I'm talking about (I grew up in one). There are plenty of folks in minority religions who have it way worse than most atheists, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about shit atheists face.

Either way, I was using it as a common ground, so we had a place to start from in the way of understanding.
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Old 10-28-2013, 05:51 AM   #46
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Ahh, my mistake. I didn't realize you too were an RCC volunteer. Most people I talk to outside the DCRCC tend to use sexual assault as a replacement term for r*pe, so I've kind of grown used to doing the same myself outside of it. Probably would've figured that you meant the RAINN defined form of sexual assault given the study's statistics if I wasn't at the point where someone might mistaken me for an actual zombie right now. I probably should sleep and then continue on when I'm more rested. I would, however, like to point out that in the muslim world, atheists actually do suffer quite heavily. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrim...amic_countries It's worth noting, of course, that one born in a muslim nation would in all likelihood be raised as a muslim, and that they would become an atheist later, thus becoming "apostates" and subjected to imprisonment, physical punishment, and execution. Atheists in general tend to be a rather small group in highly religious nations, and trying to organize atheists, as it has been said by many, is like herding cats. In such nations, with such extreme penalties for denouncing your religion and becoming an atheist, I suspect rather strongly that the reason they seemingly don't suffer more is because they're less obvious, more secretive, and less organized than those of religious groups in other countries where such religious groups are assaulted and killed. Just something to consider. There's something to be said for hiding in the shadows to avoid being persecuted, especially in those kinds of nations. What there is to be said, though, is nothing good in reflection on those societies, and not just because of what is directed at so-called "apostates." Not saying you're wrong or anything, though; you did say "most," not "all."
See, this leads down the road of me pointing out that atheist governments have persecuted religions and continue to today, but then you'd say "oh, but they're doing it because it threatens their power, not because atheists are inherently intolerant," which leads me to pointing out that Islamic states are political as well and there's reasons other than religious ones why an orthodoxy is being enforced. Its almost as if something bad has happened in the past for Islamist states to have risen to power and for them to be suspicious of Western secularization.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ape descendant
[We could argue the finer points of it (which I really don't care to), but religious privilege is a thing. Though I would limit it to mainstream, christian religions here in the U.S. So perhaps using the term mainstream-religious privilege would have been better.

I certainly agree that minority religions lack the kind of privilege I'm talking about (I grew up in one). There are plenty of folks in minority religions who have it way worse than most atheists, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about shit atheists face.
Then its not religious privilege. Those Sikhs being mowed down in their temple do not have some sort of privilege atheists don't have access to. That's "white superchurch privilege" you're trying to address while erasing the oppression of religious minorities (many of whom are PoC), but "white supremacy" covers that very well I think and rolls off the tongue much better.

Quote:
Either way, I was using it as a common ground, so we had a place to start from in the way of understanding.
But its misleading at best and a huge fail in the face of intersectionality.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:54 AM   #47
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A White Christian in America =/= A theist. Erasing privilege ignores people who don't have it. Intersectionality, homies. That's like saying "Black Muslim Bisexual Trans Man = A Man, and this man benefits from patriarchy and it's power structures that turn women into second class citizens."

There's a little more going on here. A woman does not make 75 cents to a man's dollar. A WHITE woman makes 75 cents to a WHITE man's dollar. She still makes more than a black man, a black woman, a Hispanic man, and a Hispanic woman.

In addition, let's not speak for people in Muslim countries without having actually spoken to them. Don't even start that shit or I will fill this thread with uppercuts.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:00 PM   #48
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Let's pause for six seconds and remember something before continuing this conversation:
the laws that prohibit atheists from holding office are non-enforceable. So that is a direction that is closed to this conversation.

There. Now we can go back to talking about the more interesting topics of intersectionality and institutionalized oppression.
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Old 10-28-2013, 02:49 PM   #49
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What V said up there is why intersectionality matters, all the systems of privilege and oppression are connected and work together, you can't really separate one from the others. Yes it is important to have a focus while working on specific legislation and addressing specific problems but you can't ignore the interconnectedness of it all, even though it would be so much easier and less soul draining to do so.

I'll go back to where you questioned that my gender was as much of a problem for me as my sexuality, the two go hand in hand. I get a lot of shit for being a women, I don't go a single week without "enjoying" a little street harassment and when I was working full time at a resort it was a pretty regular thing that (almost exclusively male) guests pushed my boundaries to the point where I was extremely thankful to have a counter between me and them as well as two security cameras pointing directly at me, and a nextel in my hand with my finger ready to push the button to chirp either security or the pool techs if I knew they were in the building (their office and the pump room were in my building so they could be there in about 20 seconds but they also went up to the outdoor pool and on calls to guest units), sometimes that happened multiple times a night and while usually I could get them to go the fuck away on my own, there were plenty of times when I did have to push that button. That kind of stuff is just a part of my life.

I also enjoy a lot of shit because I'm queer but it isn't really directed at me, it is more like background radiation, part of that is that when it comes to strangers I do pass as straight, my friends and family know I'm queer but I have a pretty loving and accepting family, when I came out to them the worst that happened was being asked super personal questions about my love life, which was awkward and uncomfortable and not the kind of questions they had ever asked me before but not something I was bothered by and certainly was much more pleasant than what many other people experience when they come out. I've also been pretty selective about friends, if they do queer bash (or are racist/sexist/ablest/whatever) I call them out on it and if they don't work that shit out I will drop them as a friend, I don't need that shit in my life. So essentially the people who know I'm queer except it. Strangers don't know it, coworkers don't know it.

The times when being queer is a big problem for me the fact that I'm a woman also come into play. The reason why I've been harassed and assaulted (not ***** but assaulted) at parties (80% of the time by predominantly straight women, about 10% by gay men, yeah at parties I've been sexually assaulted by gay men about the same number of times as I have been by straight dudes and far more than both of them combined by predominantly straight women, never even had my boundaries pushed by someone who was trans* or a queer woman) is that I'm an attractive woman who isn't mono-sexual (attracted to only one gender). They think that because they aren't interested in having sex with me but that I am attracted to them (spoiler alert: I'm not but everyone thinks peeps like me are attracted to everyone) that it is okay for them to touch or kiss me without any sort of consent. They treat me like a play thing there for them to experiment with and those situations can go from "eww stop trying to kiss me" level of bad to much, much worse with just about no warning and everybody just writes it off because the person harassing/assaulting me is "just having a bit of fun" or I get told "don't worry they aren't even into chicks" because the fact that they don't actually want to put something in my vagina should totally excuse the fact that they are already doing things to me that I don't want them doing.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:05 PM   #50
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Oh I did also want to say that the reason why that study that you cited is crap is because their methodology is a bit um squidgy and the results have been used as proof of things beyond what the survey actually addressed. I can see why you, and a shit ton of other people, used it because on the surface there is nothing wrong with it, but once you start digging it is a bit disappointing.




Also if you are willing to really look into your privilege that is awesome, it can take a lot to really do that, you have to be able to look at yourself and your life in an honest way and open your eyes to things that can be pretty unpleasant. Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack gives a pretty good rundown of that daily advantages of white privilege and The Male Privilege Checklist points out a lot of the subtle ways that you benefit from being a dude every day. Neither is 100% comprehensive (no list really is) but give them a look, chances are even if you were trying to think of all of the ways being a white dude gives you an advantage there are many things on the lists that you wouldn't have thought of.
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