Haiti: Where Did Our Money Go?

[Saya]

http://www.theawl.com/2011/01/our-go...nd-sarah-palin

Its a pretty long article so I can't make it fit into a post, but you should really read it. Its about how only HALF of the money raised for Haiti ever got spent, and a lot of your tax money went to trying to convert Haitians to Evangelism.

Mother Jones also has a package about what aid is working, why the money isn't being used, and also about the mass **** going on, not an easy read (also a huge article):

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011...mac-mcclelland

^You have to replace the stars with r a p e, no spaces.

[Despanan]

I am so mad I can't fucking see straight.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Holy shit. This is why I am leery on donating. mother fuckers.

[Saya]

Tell me about it. Can't comment on the article yet, still too angry.

I donated to Partners In Health and they seem good, but I'm super paranoid now.

[CallMeDeth]

What?

WHAT?!!?!?

HOW DOES- WHY DID- ARE WE- FUCK!

I'm tired of America's shenanigans. We pretty much suck.

3 cheers for pretending to care without caring!

[Corpsey]

Infuriating. For a supposed Christian Organisation, they seem to be as far from following Christ as possible. I knew this sort of thing went on through Unicef but this is something worse than I imagined.

Even with Jesus (or maybe especially so), one need just follow the money for proof. Franklin Graham serves as president and CEO of both organizations. Samaritain's Purse pays Franklin Graham $616,665 a year. Apparently, Jesus approves of Graham's work as, despite an economic implosion, that is an increase from the $416,987 he received in 2008. That also does not count Graham's pay from the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association, which puts the man of God's income well over $1 million a year. He recently received a 21% increase in compensation, even as his charity laid off 10% of its workforce. (It's assumed Jesus will provide for them.)

& This

Hear that, Haitians? Better convert if you want part of the $11.5 million USAID gave World Vision for shelter building, rubble clearing and salvaging work in Haiti. Of course, Franklin Graham signed the letter as well. A journalist I spoke with, who is currently in Haiti, told me about a Haitian pastor who directs much of Samaritan's Purse work in Grand Goâve. He just built a new beach house, where he hosts Samaritan's Purse missionaries.

Were the worst for me to read out of a plethora of disgusting quotes to mention about these people. The Bull these people are doing is maddening.

[Saya]

Oh, the beautiful thing is, most Haitians are Catholic, some practice Voodoo as well (Voodoo came about as slaves were forced to convert, but kept many of their traditional beliefs as well) but there isn't a huge number of people who are solely voodooists. So, they're Christian already. They already know this shit. They're just not the right kind, apparently.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

i hate evangelists so fucking much. Take your damned religion and shove down your own damned throat. The fact that they have the audacity to choose whether to help or not (with money set to fucking help Haitians in the first fucking place), because of religious principles is fucking bullshit! and they're fucking excuses were that it would be a waste! Fucking bullshit! I could care less if they were an entire culture dedicated to summoning cthullu, they needed help. we said we would, and then fucking turn around and say, "oh sorry you guys practice voodoo, fuck off."

Ohhhh how i hate them.... fucking religious fucktards...

[Solumina]

I know this is nothing new but it still feels like a punch to the gut. I can't imagine how someone can look in the face of tragedy and think about how they are going to further their own interests. For fucks sake those people don't just want help or deserve help, they need it. That so many people found a way to give, even if it meant giving up something for themselves and their own families yet the people in Haiti are still living in a nightmare because the people who said they would help care more about how they can help themselves. Just thinking about this has put me on the brink of tears and made my blood boil.

[Mr.Doobie]

Fuck you Billy Graham. Fuck you with something hard and sandpapery.

[Despanan]

This is really horrible.

I mean, As I said before, Religious Charities main objective is almost always evangelism over actual aid (and often according to the member's own beliefs, saving souls is infinitely more important than saving lives) but...sweet Jesus fuck, what WorldVision/Samaritain's Purse is doing is absolutely reprehensible.

[$haDe]

If the first article didn't knock me out of my chair, the second one did. D:


........and I don't have to read an entire article.


This pic and the header including "Sarah Palin" will do.

[Despanan]

So, I did some googling of Monsanto (the corporation that "donated" the seed)

Turns out they're like, Captain-planet style super villians

The corn seed has been chemically treated and genetically engineered to wipe out their other domestic farming products. The tomato seeds they donated had been treated with a chemical so toxic the EPA mandated that farm workers wear protective clothing? HOW CRAPPY DOES SEED HAVE TO BE TO COME WITH A WARNING LABEL?

WARNING: THIS SEED WILL KILL YOU It's a fucking seed. How can you weaponize seeds? That makes NO SENSE.

Monsanto is the fucking UMBRELLA corporation.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Despanan

So, I did some googling of Monsanto (the corporation that "donated" the seed)

Turns out they're like, Captain-planet style super villians

The corn seed has been chemically treated and genetically engineered to wipe out their other domestic farming products. The tomato seeds they donated had been treated with a chemical so toxic the EPA mandated that farm workers wear protective clothing? HOW CRAPPY DOES SEED HAVE TO BE TO COME WITH A WARNING LABEL?

WARNING: THIS SEED WILL KILL YOU It's a fucking seed. How can you weaponize seeds? That makes NO SENSE.

Monsanto is the fucking UMBRELLA corporation.

That article is awful. There's the description of how bad they think GM is but they don't seem to actually say that the Monsanto seeds sent to Haiti are GM. Because they aren't, they're hybrid. The first sentence in that article even says so.

Also Monsanto claim that Thiram (the tomato seed pesticide) is not classified as your article says. Monsanto are probably telling the truth considering the EPA say that they consider current (2004) Thiram safety labels to be adequate, and those labels: "typically require that handlers wear long pants, long-sleeved shirts, and gloves".

As for the hybrid issue: it seems they aren't actually infertile but successive generations deteriorate and as such new seeds are usually bought each year. It also seems that they produce a better yield per area than other seeds, and Monsanto claim that as the reason for choosing hybrids to donate.

[Despanan]

Yeah, you got that data from Monsanto's blog. You're listening to damage control, not facts.

Dude, this company is like Umbrella. They are very clearly lying.

I don't have time to show you why right now, I'll come back later and explain.

for now:

HAY GUIZ I WROTED A PLAY BOUT THIS!!!11

[Sinjob]

This is such a fucking outrage. If I was in that country and someone was trying to convert me instead of providing ACTUAL support (hmm how about FOOD AND SHELTER?) I'd spit right in their face.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Yeah, you got that data from Monsanto's blog. You're listening to damage control, not facts.

Dude, this company is like Umbrella. They are very clearly lying.

I don't have time to show you why right now, I'll come back later and explain.

Not quite. I got the hybrid generation information from their blog, yes. If it's wrong then sure, let me know.

The EPA guide however, I looked up. Monsanto and the article state completely different "EPA views".

Originally Posted by US EPA: Pesticides - Reregistration Eligibility Decision for Thiram

Occupational Risk. (p15)
...
Current thiram labels typically require that handlers wear long pants, long-sleeved shirts, and gloves. Respirators are generally not required.
...
For the most part, current label requirements (for personal protection single layer clothing, gloves, and no respirator) appear to be generally adequate.

Additionally, p28 identifies thiram as a dithiocarbamate. Those match what Monsanto says, not the article, so I'm not really inclined to see it as trustworthy.

The real issue seems to be whether or not second generation seeds are viable, and do they make farmers reliant on Monsanto.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The real issue seems to be whether or not second generation seeds are viable, and do they make farmers reliant on Monsanto.

Bingo. Monsanto and like minded companies are being blamed for forcing Indian farmers into debt, which is the big reason why so many Indian farmers kill themselves. The patent makes it illegal to save seeds, if seeds can be even salvaged. We can easily see a repeat in Haiti.

Monsanto's own website is a great source for HOLY SHIT IS THAT UNETHICAL stuff:

http://www.monsanto.com/newsviews/Pa...-lawsuits.aspx

[Saya]

Also, on the religion front, there have been many lynchings of voodoo priests and practioners, who are being blamed for spreading cholera:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-12073029

Aid has been delayed and denied to voodoo practioners:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...hristians.html

[Raptor]

Back to the thiram thing, it seems that most (all?) online sources that denounce the use of thiram in Haiti use exactly the same paragraph. Copied and pasted. They either have no source, or they use one from 1993 - which predates the current EPA document by eleven years.

Originally Posted by Saya

We can easily see a repeat [of making seed saving illegal] in Haiti.

Source?

As the Haiti seeds are a donation, the same contracts don't necessarily apply as from a business agreement. A Monsanto rep actually says essentially that. It's a donation and there will be no legal action against seed saving.

Originally Posted by Mica Veihman, Monsanto Public Affairs

It is a donation. That means farmers have no obligation to Monsanto. Yes, they can save the seeds. No, we would not sue them.

Source.

Originally Posted by Saya

Monsanto and like minded companies are being blamed for forcing Indian farmers into debt, which is the big reason why so many Indian farmers kill themselves.

Source?

Content from some of the links on Monsanto's website:

Originally Posted by Guardian, 2008

Suicides among Indian farmers have not increased as a result of the introduction of GM crops, according to a large scientific study.
...
The finding runs counter to arguments often cited by NGOs in the country such as Gene Campaign that oppose GM crops.
...
But the new analysis suggests that if anything, suicides among farmers have been decreasing since the introduction of GM cotton by Monsanto in 2002.
...
It also found that the adoption of pest-resistant Bt cotton varieties had led to massive increases in yield and a 40% decrease in pesticide use.

Source.

Originally Posted by International Food Policy Research Institute, 2008

Suicides in general, including farmers’ suicides, are a sad and complex phenomenon.
...
We first show that there is no evidence in available data of a “resurgence” of farmer suicides in India in the last five years. Second, we find that Bt cotton technology has been very effective overall in India. However, the context in which Bt cotton was introduced has generated disappointing results in some particular districts and seasons. Third, our analysis clearly shows that Bt cotton is neither a necessary nor a sufficient condition for the occurrence of farmer suicides. In contrast, many other factors have likely played a prominent role. Nevertheless, in specific regions and years, where Bt cotton may have indirectly contributed to farmer indebtedness, leading to suicides, its failure was mainly the result of the context or environment in which it was planted.

Source.

[Saya]

How debt is a factor of suicide, and how Monsanto's GMO seeds impoverished Indian farmers:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vandan..._b_192419.html

Bt Cotton failed as pests simply adapted (2010):

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/St...+failed+admits

Why Haiti can't afford Monsanto http://www.viacampesina.org/en/index...ons&Itemid=76:

“The foundation for Haiti’s food sovereignty is the ability of peasants to save seeds from one growing season to the next. The hybrid crops that Monsanto is introducing do not produce seeds that can be saved for the next season, therefore peasants who use them would be forced to somehow buy more seeds each season,” explains Bazelais Jean-Baptiste, an agronomist from the MPP who is currently directing the “Seeds for Haiti” project in New York City.

“Furthermore, these seeds require expensive inputs of synthetic fertilizers and pesticides that Haiti’s farmers simply cannot afford. This creates a devastating level of dependency and is a complete departure from the reality of Haiti’s peasants. Haitian peasants already have locally adapted seeds that have been developed over generations. What we need is support for peasants to access the traditional seeds that are already available.”

There's also the problem that with hybrid seeds, the following generations lose viability even if the seeds can be saved.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Saya

There's also the problem that with hybrid seeds, the following generations lose viability even if the seeds can be saved.

I said that earlier, but it's not necessarily bad. It's only an issue if the profits from harvested crops are not high enough to allow farmers to buy more seed. I imagine it's also a riskier strategy as if your crops fail for whatever reason, you stand to lose more money. The IFPRI report states that suicide rates have not increased between 2002 (introduction year of Bt cotton) and 2007 beyond the previous farmer suicide trend, and it sets out some of the reasons why farmers in India using Bt cotton may get into debt despite high hopes for the product. These include buying fake Bt seeds in an attempt to get a better price, using incorrect seed varieties for their area, and wasting money on pesticide. Bt cotton requires pesticide but significantly less than local plants, yet many farmers continued their previous spraying levels.

Obviously it would be better for farmers if they only had to buy hybrid seed once, I don't think anyone would argue against that.

Originally Posted by Saya

Bt Cotton failed as pests simply adapted (2010):

http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/St...+failed+admits

Again, in the IFPRI document they stated that the way Indian farmers use pesticides is accelerating the rate at which pests become resilient. Not to mention that with any crop; GM, hybrid, or standard, pest adaptation is always a problem. I doubt Monsanto ever promised otherwise, and I imagine they'll be attempting to keep up with the pests with each successive seed product they create. Even in your link they mention that some of the blame lies with the farmers, with quotes from both Monsanto and a report to the Central Institute for Cotton Research ("Farmers are not following the recommended 'refugia'").

Originally Posted by Saya

Why Haiti can't afford Monsanto http://www.viacampesina.org/en/index...ons&Itemid=76:

That article is pretty much just a quote of one or two people and I'm fairly sure he's wrong about hybrids needing more pesticide, unless it varies by crop and for some reason some hybrids need more than standard plants, and some need less. The idea of hybrid seed is that a higher initial cost is offset by a larger yield, but assuming that Monsanto seeds are not financially viable in Haiti, why not plant enough normal crop to get enough seed to cover next season? Or if seed can keep long enough - use hybrids now and store all the normal seed until the donation seed is used up.

Originally Posted by Saya

How debt is a factor of suicide, and how Monsanto's GMO seeds impoverished Indian farmers:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/vandan..._b_192419.html

That seems to claim suicides are going up, which doesn't match the IFPRI figures. It doesn't address much of anything in detail, and doesn't outline all the possible causes. It also doesn't seem to bring any newer data into the picture even though it's more recent than 2008.


These online news articles don't contain sufficient data or analysis to figure out what's going on. Some of them have errors, some don't consider many variables, many of them copy and paste from each other without checking the facts.

This is a direct link to the document I've been looking at. It's 64 pages long and is an attempt to review the situation. Is it definitely correct? No. But it does provide references and it attempts to address many possibilities.
IFPRI

If you're looking for the other side of the story, then this might be better than what you've been posting so far:
I-SIS

It's an attempt to counter the IFPRI document but I'm still skeptical of it. It's written in a pseudo scientific style, and for some reason the document is free but you have to pay to view the references (common practice is everything free, or just the abstract free - abstracts never contain references). There are also some anecdotal stories which shouldn't be there, and some unfair criticisms of the IFPRI document. E.g. claiming data in IFPRI does not include female farmers but not providing any better data sources, and neglecting to mention that the IFPRI document describes the problems with the available data. It also claims that IFPRI's conclusions "absolve Bt cotton from having played any part in the farmers suicides, laying practically all the blame on inappropriate rainfall and drought, with no mention of the exorbitant price of GM seeds compared with traditional seeds; nor of failed harvests or of increased pesticide use". If anything the actual conclusion was that there are a large number of causes for suicide. Pesticide use is mostly definitely covered and I haven't even read the whole thing. And as I said before, it seems likely that any problems that would cause debt (drought, pests etc) would be exacerbated by the higher cost of hybrids.

Basically, I don't think many of these articles are reliable. I've seen similarly styled arguments against climate change that appear strong at first glance but often turn out to have been misleading.

[Saya]

I'll have to do more research for you later, I got my own shit to do today, but I think I can explain why hybrids need more fertilizer and water and overall more resources fairly quickly.

Mind you this isn't an academic source, but I was always told with gardening that hybrids sacrifice hardiness:

http://www.primalseeds.org/hybrid.htm

Too much emphasis is put on their yield when they are bred, so hardiness is sacrificed. Think of purebred animals who have health problems because of concentrated characteristics. There isn't much genetic variety, and there's all the problems of cross-breeding to begin with, if its not sterile it gets worse with each generation until it is sterile.

The pesticide use is a big reason why it might not be a good idea to use Monsanto, even this one time. Pesticides can change the soil for years to come: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/pesticides/c_2.htm

I can't find reliable statistics about Haiti's use of pesticides before the earthquake, but keep in mind its the poorest country in the western hemisphere, and farmers could barely grow enough food to feed themselves: http://www.ruralpovertyportal.org/we...ome/tags/haiti

Don't know how reliable this source is, but it says Haiti used insanely small amounts of pesticides compared to what is normal for other countries:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_libra...gr_cou_332.pdf


Water for those hybrids is going to be a huge issue as well, keep in mind the illness that is ravaging Haiti now is due to lack of safe water, as sewage lines were destroyed in the earthquake.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Not quite. I got the hybrid generation information from their blog, yes. If it's wrong then sure, let me know.

The EPA guide however, I looked up. Monsanto and the article state completely different "EPA views".



Additionally, p28 identifies thiram as a dithiocarbamate. Those match what Monsanto says, not the article, so I'm not really inclined to see it as trustworthy.

You got suckered. They're playing with the language they're using to imply that this is something which is not harmful, without straight-up lying, it doesn't matter what classification it is, it was "reclassified" as a dithiocarbamate (possibly due to pressure from companies like Monsanto). It's actually considered a class 3 poison. It's Very toxic to aquatic organisms - may cause long-term environmental damage. Safety glasses, gloves, adequate ventilation/face mask.

* Teratogenic effects: Cleft palate, wavy ribs, and curved long leg bones were observed in the offspring of mice that ingested very high thiram doses of 1200 mg/kg/day on days 6 to 17 of pregnancy. Maternal doses of 125 mg/kg/day thiram were teratogenic in hamsters, causing incomplete formation of the skull and spine, fused ribs, abnormalities of the legs, heart, great vessels, and kidneys. Developmental toxicity was observed in a three-generation study of rats fed 5.0 mg/kg/day. These data suggest that high doses are required to cause teratatogenic effects.

It's not exactly the worst poison in the world, but it is clearly a chemical that requires proper handling, and I don't think Haiti has the tools, nor the capital nor the basic sanitation (they're still fighting Cholera) to deal with this bullshit right now.

The real issue seems to be whether or not second generation seeds are viable, and do they make farmers reliant on Monsanto.

They are not and they do. What Monsanto is giving is not "charity" it's a "Free Sample", and one which will make the Haitians reliant on them, due to discouraging the cultivation of native seeds:

Monsanto is running a seed bank scam. They have done this before and possibly driven 4500 indian farmers to suicide

You are likely shopping for seed banks in order to bring peace of mind to your family; the only thing that can ruin that is being taken advantage of by a survival seeds scam artist. Do not purchase kits that include hybrid seeds which cannot be counted on to provide you with seeds that will keep your sustainable garden growing. Heirloom or non hybrid seeds are the ideal option when buying seeds you plan on storing or usingto sustain a garden. They are a little more expensive, but are well worth it as they can keep your garden self sustaining for years to come.

Originally Posted by Wikipedia

Some struggles facing Indian farmers are detailed in the article "Seeds of Suicide: India's Desperate Farmers" on Frontline. The transition to using the latest pest-resistant seeds and the necessary herbicides has been difficult. Farmers have used genetically modified seeds promoted by Cargill and Monsanto hoping for greater yields. Resulting debts from such gambles with genetically modified seeds have led some farmers into the equivalent of indentured servitude. More than 4,500 farmers have committed suicide, which some claim is mostly due to mounting debt caused by the poor yields, increased need for pesticides, and the higher cost of the Bt cotton seed sold by Monsanto.

Monsanto was very clearly trying to exploit a tragedy in order to ensure future profits. Thankfully, Haitians are burning their seeds. Honestly, how crappy do your seeds have to be that even people devastated by a massive natural disaster won't take them?

Normally, I'm very hesitant to believe stuff like this, as it's usually doesn't make sense. This does. Monsanto isn't specifically trying to LITERALLY poison Hatians (no profit in killing you customers/wage slaves) instead they're trying to impose themselves on the devistated Haitian economy in an attempt to push out the farmers cultivating natural creole seeds. They're hoping that the Hatians will be so desperate they won't care and take Monsanto's poisoned pill...Luckily, they guessed wrong.

Honestly Ren, I'm surprised at you, if you read the way the folks on the monsanto blog are responding, it's very clear (from a marketing perspective) that they're trying to hide something.

A company that's got nothing to hide isn't going to talk about the classification and the like. It's a very basic sales tactic: don't lie but present true facts that imply the wrong conclusion.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Saya

I'll have to do more research for you later, I got my own shit to do today, but I think I can explain why hybrids need more fertilizer and water and overall more resources fairly quickly.

Sorry I may not have been clear, I wasn't disputing water or fertiliser, just pesticide. The hybrids are supposed to require less of that. And yeah, they seem to be a trade off of reproductive ability and high price against yield.

Originally Posted by Saya

The pesticide use is a big reason why it might not be a good idea to use Monsanto, even this one time. Pesticides can change the soil for years to come: http://www.agf.gov.bc.ca/pesticides/c_2.htm

You'd need to know how much pesticide the Monsanto seeds require, and compare that to how much pesticide is currently used in Haiti to arrive at that conclusion. Depending on the seed and local pests, the hybrid seeds might need less treating than the standard ones.

Originally Posted by Saya

Don't know how reliable this source is, but it says Haiti used insanely small amounts of pesticides compared to what is normal for other countries:

http://earthtrends.wri.org/pdf_libra...gr_cou_332.pdf

It doesn't actually say that there, it provides a value for the mass/area of pesticides in Haiti, but not any value to compare it to:

Originally Posted by EarthTrends Country Profiles

A strict inter-country comparison on the basis of the database is not feasible because (1) The country coverage and time series are incomplete due to a high rate of non-response, and (2) Although countries have been requested to report data in terms of active ingredients, some countries may have reported in formulation weight (including diluents and adjuvants) without specific indication.

I wouldn't be surprised if you were correct though, if they don't have much money it would make sense that they use less fertiliser.

Originally Posted by Saya

Water for those hybrids is going to be a huge issue as well, keep in mind the illness that is ravaging Haiti now is due to lack of safe water, as sewage lines were destroyed in the earthquake.

I don't know at what point water becomes unsuitable for agriculture, but it can be dirtier than drinking water and still be safe right? But still, seems like a more legitimate concern than the pesticides to me.