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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 02-12-2006, 11:16 AM   #76
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i'll agree - i'd rather this was settled. i remember now when the both of you joined and you both expressed a fascination with american culture.

overall, you've both been a welcome addition to the site.

and succubus -

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Originally Posted by succubus, queenofvampires
We never said that America deserves what is happening to it.
thanx for clarifying that.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:35 AM   #77
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This is a debate that I'm going to kindly step out of, as we both seem set in our perspectives, and I'd rather not see a relativel friendly debate turn into an argument. It was fun for a while.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:45 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
Let’s put the topic back on track before Sternn come around trying to ply his normal hatemongering since the can of Middle Eastern worms has been opened…let’s just lid that fucker right quick.
i'm kinda shocked sternn hasn't already breezed in to declare anyone but an american as being in the right here.

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Originally Posted by tstone
The issue of illegals is still on the table. I thank you, Edible, for the earlier validation from the misses of being a good writer, but methinks I’m not so good. If I were, I’d have been able to impart my original idea; the first time I made it on page one.
you made your point, tstone. i just don't necessarily agree wih it. there are people here who do, my wife for one. and you don't need to thank me for that, although i'll pass it along.

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Originally Posted by tstone
We the people are paying the illegals to work for us. We are perpetrating the crime along with them, and we are even more culpable because we facilitate the economic strain. The punishment for the instigators is not nearly as harsh as it is for the perpetrators.
this is reason one why i can't agree - should we prosecute the owners of stores such as tiffany's in new york for displaying their diamonds in the window when someone enters and steals from them?

i don't get the mindset behind someone being considered "guilty" for having achieved some degree of success above someone else breaking the law in order to get at a piece of it.
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Old 02-12-2006, 11:46 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disfunction
This is a debate that I'm going to kindly step out of, as we both seem set in our perspectives, and I'd rather not see a relativel friendly debate turn into an argument. It was fun for a while.
later, dis. i'm a hot-head. i know it. you love me for it.

boo-kah.
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Old 02-12-2006, 01:12 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
But Tiffany’s isn’t breaking the law by displaying their wares
neither is joe public by having jobs that need to be filled.

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Originally Posted by tstone
... whereas Joe Public is by hiring an illegal alien. The level of success you speak of was gained by not paying his or her economic dues to country and community. It is cheaper for them, yes, but it’s also against the law.
this, however becomes another law broken - yes. and if illegal crossing of the border was enforced, two instances of lawlessness could be easily averted. it's too easy for one looking to save and the other looking to make a buck.

by looking the other way to one party breaking the law, two laws have been broken and the enforcement for either is... nil. which is worse? the employer looking to save a buck and paying money to a man trying to feed his family or merely thumbing his nose at america, or the man who enters the country illegally thereby subliminally setting it in his head that the laws of this country are weak and inconsequential where he is concerned? what would behoove him to behave appropriately while here if he knows that his behavior won't be all too harshly managed? what if you or i show up one day to apply for the job and we get a knife in the gut because, for all intents and purposes - the laws mean nothing to this man?

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Originally Posted by tstone
And we complain that migrant workers and illegal workers are taking our jobs, but the fact to the matter is, businesses are giving them our jobs. Fuck that, and fuck them. I don’t hate the worker for that; the scab that crosses the strike line, but the company that would hire them. I just feel that a business owner should care more for their employees, be more responsible for the symbiotic relationship they help create, and I hate to see anyone become rich off the blood of hardworking folk and not give anything in return.
not give anything in return? i'd argue they give more than they ever received inside their own country. if not, why return?

they do the same as you or i, essntially, in terms of making money for those they work for - unless you're an independant contractor. i don't hate the hospital i work for just because they get more (monetarily) out of my care for a patient than i do.

it's not all wine and roses for joe public either, by the way. don't paint these illegals as some sort of angelic godsend without a faulty bone in their body. joe takes a chance on their ability to actually do the job he hires them for. after all, what happens if something goes bad? those slippery sons-of-bitches sneak back into their own country leaving the man who hired them, giving them a chance to make some dough, to deal with the aftermath.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:22 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by succubus,queenofvampires
I get really pissed off when people directly link Allah with Islam.Allah is Arabic for God,and we,Christians,pray for Allah too whenever we're referring to God.
Just thought that I might clear this...
If you ever say that to a muslem you'd better run. Allah is not the same as the christian god, in their eyes.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:17 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
Shut your fucking trap, stone. I'm not a racist. I nearly married a black woman 12 years ago, who I dated for nearly 4 years and who was pregnant with my kid. How the fuck can I be racist? I have nothing against mexicans or any other race. I find humor in the stereo types and jokes that are passed about every body from every race or back ground. I laugh at 'fag' jokes just as often as i do 'wetback', black, redneck or any other racial/background comments. It has nothing to do with being racist. Its about being able to see the humor in life and the world and being able to seperate it from reality. It just so happens that mexicans are the illegals that this country has the biggest problem with. It wouldn't matter what nationality, race or background they were from, I'd say the same. If it was Canadians running across our borders fucking up our economy I'd be saying the same shit. If you like them so much let them live and work in your back yard. And no I have no sympathy for the shit they have to endure while working ILLEGALLY in this country. They have no business being here to begin with. Its not our fault that their government is so fucked up. If they don't like it they need to fucking fix it themselves. I think its fucking poposturous that not only do they come and work here, but when something happens and one of them gets killed or seriously injured on the job their families actually have the fucking nerve to raise hell and try suing the company or the state. GO THE FUCK HOME! If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened.
It seems to be that rascism against Mexicans is the newest socially acceptable rascism.

I'll be the first one to say it - if I was a Mexican citizen and I was pregnant, yeah - I would try to come into America and have my kid here. Yup. I would.

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Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
If it was Canadians running across our borders fucking up our economy I'd be saying the same shit.
You are so worried about the economy? Really? That's what bothers you SO MUCH about illegal imigrants? I'm no fucking economy major myself, but judging by your posts, you aren't either. You are probably just repeating what someone else who is OPENLY rascist has said about illegal immigrants. Your problems with them arise from elsewhere. If you are so worried about the economy - immigrants are the LAST thing to be worried about then.

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Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
If you like them so much let them live and work in your back yard.
Right, like you have the means to be all fucking righteous about not employing illegal immigrants in YOUR backyard. You don't pay illegals because you don't have the reasons nor the means to hire illegals, not because you own some booming business that you hire only class A, grade A American citizens to work in. Yaay, you deserve a cookie because you don't hire illegal immigrants that you don't have any use for? Fucking bully for you.

DAMN THOSE STRAWBERRY PICKERS, right? Damn them for putting GOOD HARD WORKING WHITE CITIZENS out of jobs. Who the fuck do they think they are, coming here, living like Kings, picking all our strawberries. THEY JUST PUT YOU OUT OF A JOB, now, didn't they? You really wanted to be a maid, or a farm worker, huh?

People that come over here do so because they don't have shit. I don't agree with them coming over here illegally. But that's a problem to be dealt with on a higher level. You're not going to make any sense walking up to an illegal immigrant and telling them how much they've taken away from YOU, the rightful WHITE AMERICAN, and they're over here living like royalty. When they work long, backbreaking hours. When they scour the clearance racks trying to buy clothes for their kids. When they live ten people in one room. When they boil food in the backyard, trying to make some extra money to feed their kids.

No, they don't live like royalty. They aren't fucking living it up in Beverly Hills. They are doing the jobs that no one else wants to do.

To clear myself - I DO believe illegal immigration is wrong, and I think that it needs to be dealt with. The American government needs to do something about this situation. However, the...


Quote:
Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
GO THE FUCK HOME!
attitude doesn't solve anything. If it bothers you so much, get involved. Write letters to your congressman. Educate yourself on the issue.

Because by sitting here with your thumb up your ass, complaining about how good a bunch of illegal Mexicans have it...makes you look like an ignorant pissed off middle class American who doesn't know how good HE'S got it.
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:40 AM   #83
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of course. any time someone says anything negative about the actions of another race, especially when its a white man saying it, he's automatically a racist.

how many mexicans are crossing the border into your country? i'm sure you have a horrible problem with it, there in england.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe
Your problems with them arise from elsewhere. If you are so worried about the economy - immigrants are the LAST thing to be worried about then blah blah blah fucking blah
illegal immigrants, not immigrants in general. yeah i have problems with it. on so many levels. i have problems with the fact that, when i did work in retail, i was required to check id's on everybody that came through the door wanting to buy alcohol or tobacco, unless it was a mexican, who didn't speak english, who didn't have id of any kind, pulling out his hundreds to buy two or three cases of bud light. then i'm suppose to look the other way. and on top of that, try explaining to a bunch of them that there is no alcohol sales on sundays. period. of course i'm sure he was just using it to boil his kids food in the back yard. but if i say anything, i'm the one that gets fired over it. and yeah, i'm sure that wide screen tv and the brand new nikes that i also had to sell to them were both on the clearance rack. All in the largest retail store in the world, where the average employee of said retail store can't even afford to shop there on their $8.20 an hour. and that's not even scraping the barrel of issues i have with all of it.

but whatever. how about you sit down drink your tea and eat your crumpets. cause you don't know shit about it. it doesn't concern you. you don't live here. you don't have to see it every day. how about you write those letters. see how much response you get.

And the mentality that has clearly been expressed by most on this topic, in this forum, is exactly the reason why it all continues to go on, and will continue to go on. without a single fucking thing being done about it.

and then i have to ask myself why the fuck do i care. its not going to change anything. why the fuck am i wasting my time and energy bitching about it, making myself look like mr patriot when i've always been known to be the first mother fucker ready to stand up and burn a flag or spit on a jar head. what the fuck ever.
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Old 02-13-2006, 02:58 AM   #84
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Dumbass.

I'm a half Hispanic American living in England.

My stepfather is Mexican-American and I grew up in Southern California, surrounded by illegal immigrants, and didn't leave until I was 18, to defend the rights of fucktards like you.

That is what I know about the situation.

You don't have a fucking clue about the effects of legal and illegal immigration on America's economy. You just plain don't like Mexicans and try to use political babble to justify yourself.

You might as well admit it, instead of blundering through your posts, rambling about what they buy when you, the oh-so-poor citizen, are EARNING your share. Try just coming clean with the fact that you don't like Mexicans, instead of trying to martyr yourself on the cross of Patriotic America.

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Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
And the mentality that has clearly been expressed by most on this topic, in this forum, is exactly the reason why it all continues to go on, and will continue to go on. without a single fucking thing being done about it.
The attitude of some people conversing in an online forum has nothing to do with why 'it all continues to go on'. Just like your attitude does fuck-shit to stop it. Attitude gets fucking nothing accomplished.

Speaking up and doing something about what bothers you gets things accomplished. Write a letter. Join a committee. Participate in activism. Vote.

I guess the Civil Rights movement just happened all on it's own, then, huh? Average American citizens didn't bother doing dumb shit like writing letters, or standing up for what they believed in, and everything changed all on its own.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
but whatever. how about you sit down drink your tea and eat your crumpets. cause you don't know shit about it. it doesn't concern you. you don't live here. you don't have to see it every day. how about you write those letters. see how much response you get.
You are a defeatist. You don't do shit about what you say bothers you so much.

YOU, not us, but YOU enable the situation by not doing anything within your constitutionally - granted rights about a situation that you claim to be so upset about.

You are too lazy to do anything about it.

So shut the fuck up already.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:19 AM   #85
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Blushing Heliophobe, you are a ravishing woman. Well said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExistentialDisorder
...when i did work in retail, i was required to check id's on everybody that came through the door wanting to buy alcohol or tobacco, unless it was a mexican, who didn't speak english, who didn't have id of any kind, pulling out his hundreds to buy two or three cases of bud light. then i'm suppose to look the other way. and on top of that, try explaining to a bunch of them that there is no alcohol sales on sundays. period. of course i'm sure he was just using it to boil his kids food in the back yard. but if i say anything, i'm the one that gets fired over it. and yeah, i'm sure that wide screen tv and the brand new nikes that i also had to sell to them were both on the clearance rack. All in the largest retail store in the world, where the average employee of said retail store can't even afford to shop there on their $8.20 an hour. and that's not even scraping the barrel of issues i have with all of it ... and then i have to ask myself why the fuck do i care. its not going to change anything. why the fuck am i wasting my time and energy bitching about it, making myself look like mr patriot when i've always been known to be the first mother fucker ready to stand up and burn a flag or spit on a jar head. what the fuck ever.

Oh mercy... How do you manage with that blood pressure? Not to be condescending, I know you are a victim of the illegals' economic terrorism and hassled by their buying habits, but please... that bitter? You know, you should have some tea and crumpets and take it easy for a while. I mean, what's it to you how much beer they buy or what TV they have? That's just plain, old-fashioned envy. If you went around to their neighbourhood and treated them respectfully they'd probably give you one of those beers, plus some spicy chicken, while you all watched Mexican wrestling on their huge TV. Wouldn't that be awesome?!

I guess I'm an ignoramus concerning illegal immigration too, since I'm in one of those tiny nations where no-one wants to come. I assure you, it's not always a picnic being an immigrant or asylum-seeker in Norway either. Yet, inexplicably! you hear those exact same arguments you use from right-wing politicians and people in general here. And what it all comes down to is a bunch of people who get themselves all worked up over someone else doing jobs they themselves would never do, having other priorities (like *gasp* SURVIVING!) and buying weird stuff...

What I don't get is how come you take it so personally. In this whole argument, there has been a tendency of siding either with the worker, or the economy. And like Blushing said, it seems implausible that an abstract and fluid concept like The Economy should boil the blood to such a degree, unless you're a major economics nerd, and can pinpoint exactly where this hurts you.

I realize that you would probably call me a "bleeding heart liberal", but I'd rather side with a human being than some faceless business any day.

Fuck, I'm so hungry... Thanks for making me write all that!

Just so you know, I am totally relaxed and not feeling worked up or bleeding-hearted at all as I'm sitting here now. Seriously.
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:33 AM   #86
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Quote:
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Blushing Heliophobe, you are a ravishing woman. Well said.
Why thank you, pleased to make your acquaintance Pitselah. I thought you were mainly a haunt of the Music forums
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Old 02-13-2006, 03:55 AM   #87
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And as a post-script, ED - you were so off-base with the 'tea and crumpets' remark that it made me laugh out loud, but if you can't insult someone directly you might as well leave their nationality out of it. Even if I was English/British it would have had nothing to do with the issue at hand. Just another way that you let your us VS them mentality leak out behind your mask of concerned patriotism...
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Old 02-13-2006, 04:32 AM   #88
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Originally Posted by Blushing Heliophobe
Why thank you, pleased to make your acquaintance Pitselah. I thought you were mainly a haunt of the Music forums
Yes that's true, but I will occasionally foray into other areas of the woods, if I see some nuts I can crack or an attractive female nesting.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:36 AM   #89
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Why thank you, pleased to make your acquaintance Pitselah. I thought you were mainly a haunt of the Music forums
pitseleh's the shit, even if he is a bleeding heart liberal...

and the point i'd like to pull from existential's post is the blatant double standard that has arisen inside this country of late - that of the illegal alien base of rights vs. those of the natural citizen, or of the immigrant who has become a citizen legally. it has come to pass that illegal aliens have somehow, incredulously, been granted rights and benefits over and above those of law-abiding citizens. by this i mean - free money, tax exempt status, i.d.-free living, free health care, and a pass on blatantly violating the law of the states, as well as federal law.

the example he cited was of identification. if i went into a store that required identification in order to buy beer or cigarettes and for whatever reason, left it at home - i would not be sold said items. illegals obviously have no i.d. and still, as the example he provides illustrates, they are granted special treatment.

if special treatment for one group is ok with you (collectively) for one group, then by all means, your position is clear. but for any of you then to rail and shake your fist when special treatment is demanded by others for other reasons (let's use the prussian blue example since so many visited that thread and voiced their utter disgust about how they should not be allowed to preach such hatred), i would think, unless you have an agenda or some sort of predjudice against only certain groups, you would find it acceptable as well.
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:49 AM   #90
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See, Edible, this is why I had no problem with your posts, even though you have about the same position (essentially) as ED does.

I do agree with you. While I don't buy off on illegal immigration being the scourge of America - I definitely think that it is unfair for the government to turn a blind eye to the situation.

I have no suggestion as to what could solve this present day problem, though. I am told that it costs more money than it's worth to patrol our border. I find that hard to believe, when we pour money by the billions into the welfare of other countries. Why can't we use the money in a way that will benefit us, and come up with some way to guard our border?

I don't believe that they should be sold items without an ID, nor do I think they should be given health care at the expense of the American taxpayer.

In fact, my parents had bouts with the Orange School District over their bi-lingual education. Classes were taught in both English and Spanish, causing my sister's education to suffer. I certainly don't agree with this - students who cannot speak English should either be placed into English Immersion, or ESL classes. American students should not have to pay the price with their own education.

I am at a loss, though, as to what kind of solution there is to this problem. What can the government do to cut down not only on illegal immigration into this country, but also either the naturalization or deportation of those already here?
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Old 02-13-2006, 05:58 AM   #91
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If you ever say that to a muslem you'd better run. Allah is not the same as the christian god, in their eyes.
Hehe, you're funny. Actually, in Lebanon they're not conservative. They're well open-minded and most of them share some of our beliefs such as the Virgin Mary.
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:34 AM   #92
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So correct me if I'm wrong, but the only health care that an illegal immigrant has access to is a visit to the ER, and subsequent prevention of loss of life or limb?
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:37 AM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
p.s. I call Bullshit of ED’s identification story. Bullshit of the highest order. What you described was not the norm, but a situation of further exploitation. What, it’s not enough you make them pick your food, but you have to keep them drunk and stupid so they don’t wise up to the situation? HA! Didn’t we do something similar to the natives here?
you may call bullshit, but i've experienced second-hand the problems a lack of identification can cause - drivers who have no license, no registration, no insurance and are able to walk away from an accident without care because, quite simply - they don't really exist in this country. and i've experienced firsthand what it's like to have illegals using emergency rooms as a primary care center, thusly receiving their medical care for free. and i've seen firsthand illegals, after a bad night of drinking or drug use, needing to leave the emergency room so they can "get my money", those are their words in italics, around the first of the month.

these examples are real, even if there are... how do i say this... illegal aliens in the country who come here only to work?
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Last edited by edible_eye; 02-13-2006 at 06:55 AM.
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Old 02-13-2006, 06:55 AM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
What special treatment, Edible? They can’t vote,
they can't vote? why would they want to? this isn't their country. they come with an agenda, execute it and then split. there's no reason to get involved other than for their own purposes. wouldn't it be wonderful if we, as citizens, could outline the way we wanted to contribute and had it granted, no questions asked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
can’t legally own handguns
there are american citizens who can't legally own handguns, either.

and they've come here illegally in the first place... that doesn't really make sense.

not to mention that buying a handgun isn't all that difficult, if you really want one, either for an illegal or a citizen.

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Originally Posted by tstone
can’t move freely from state to state
sure they can. we don't have any countries bordering massachusetts where illegals come from, however the state government here all but shines a beacon for them to come to this state. and what they're ganted for free here is disgusting.

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Originally Posted by tstone
can’t even drive (did California get that law passed?)
can't drive or can't get a license? there's a difference. it's easy to overlook certain laws we abide by when one is not working within the context of the law to begin with.

my cousin had his automobile rear ended in california by an illegal alien at a stop light and when he got out and approached the car for papers, the illegal started shouting at him that he was not a citizen and didn't have a license or insurance. he then left his car where he was and took off. the car had plates but was unregistered. a mystery, i guess.

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Originally Posted by tstone
can’t receive medical benefits beyond what the Hippocratic oath offers everyone
medicaid and medicare are granted, especially if children are involved. the emergency room is over-utilized mainly because it's anonymous.

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Originally Posted by tstone
can’t draw welfare assistance
i have patients, especially at my second job, the inner city hospital where i work, who speak to me about getting their check, what they call - "my money" from the welfare office. yes, tstone - they do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
aren’t entitled to assisted living quarters
you don't think they (not all, of course) get free housing? - smile -

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
or job training programs
oh no?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
and the only benefit they have above you or I?
in its essence, you or i could apply for and be granted any of these things. sure. however, you or i do our part to pay into all of the above when we're working and we need to pay for each of the services outlined.

they don't.

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Originally Posted by tstone
When caught Uncle Sam will give them a free ticket (after confiscating all personal items of monetary worth) and send them home, no frills, bada-bing bada-boom.
when was the last time you heard of an illegal being deported after having everything taken from him or her?
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Old 02-13-2006, 07:51 AM   #95
ExistentialDisorder
 
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There are also free clinics, in most major US cities, usually in lower income, "minority" areas. Clinics that don't require the first shred of id or paperwork to prove who you are. Who do you think pays to keep those free clinics running?
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
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Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
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Old 02-13-2006, 08:32 AM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
But it is a right I and you hold dear, is it not? It is a privilege, and not one I take too lightly. If they had that right, perhaps they could get legislation passed for free health care, job assistance, and assisted living?
Oh fucking great. Yes! That's a brilliant idea! Let them vote. They're not getting enough hand-outs as it is. Let them put the right people in office that will give them what they really want. Hell, for that matter, just cut out the middle man all together and let them run for office. Let's elect Jos'e as president. Hell, he'll probably do a better job than bush anyway. He can't even pronounce the word Iraq, in english, much less weapons of mass destruction.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
They’ve been stripped of that right, usually with a felony. Let’s not confuse upstanding citizenship with a second class citizen, eh? Sure, anyone can buy a firearm illegally, but doing so and getting caught carries automatic punishments, and for an illegal alien that punishment includes an automatic ban of ever receiving legal status.
Who is it that are the second class citizens anymore? Those of us trying to abide by the law, or the ones coming in and breaking them left and right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
Because, perhaps, little Manuel knew he would be locked up and deported if caught? No mystery there. Goes to further illustrate the point of being able to move freely within the country.
So that makes it okay. Poor little Manuel. And damn those pig cops!

Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
Are there ways to circumvent the system? Yes, oh yes. Have I seen affluent able bodied white men drawing assistance? I have. Do I believe an illegal alien could somehow find a way to suckle at the social teat? Fuck yeah. Do I think it’s the norm? Nah.
Then you're blind. And apparently, that's blindness by choice.





Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
And are not entitled to those services legally, except as previously mentioned.
They're not entitled to anything legally, because they're here illegally, thus making everything subsequent, illegal. And yet they manage to obtain it anyway. Because of people like you, with your mentality, who don't want to place any blame on the poor, helpless illegal immigrants who come here, with their own agendas as Edible stated, and instead want to prosecute the legal citizen for not helping out the illegals. That is the exact same mentality as holding gun manufacturers responsible for murders instead of the one that committed the murder. Or holding the bartender responsible for the traffic accident deaths that resulted from the drunk he served, instead of the drunk that caused the accident.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
Last month. And actually, Florida has a law that if a citizen or non-citizen is caught carrying more than five hundred dollars cash, it immediately becomes the property of the state until the person can prove the money wasn’t obtained by illegal means. Which, of course, all monies confiscated from an illegal would be, well, illegally obtained. Right? That’s how my state see it, at least.
Good law.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 02-13-2006, 10:33 AM   #97
edible_eye
 
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it seems existential provided his take on your answers. here are mine...

Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
But it is a right I and you hold dear, is it not? It is a privilege, and not one I take too lightly. If they had that right, perhaps they could get legislation passed for free health care, job assistance, and assisted living?
let's say i decided to visit canada during election time and instead of crossing through a border site, like a good citizen, i opted to sneak in. while there, i realized an election was going on and thought to myself - hey, i'm here. how 'bout i cast my ballot? would that be appropriate? i think not.

and like i said before - those services are absolutely open to them, at least here in this state, which is the one i can comment on because i live here. i'll concede that these services are available, most likely, in an attempt to draw out the illegal aliens (called 'undocumented citizens' here in massachusetts - isn't that cute?) so as to help them become citizens, however it rarely works because of fear, a desire to continue as is unmolested, not knowing about it because they neither speak the language nor care about whatever legal processes there are for their citizenship, they don't care - period or perhaps a combination of any of these.

giving away the right to vote to people who are not citizens of our country is to piss away and dilute the very heart of our democracy.

ours.

what's next? people from other countries, like iraq, england, germany, and france picking up non-citizen ballots from their local post offices and mailing them into the united states? after all, if we let some non-citizens vote - shouldn't we let all non-citizens vote? and if not, why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
They’ve been stripped of that right, usually with a felony. Let’s not confuse upstanding citizenship with a second class citizen, eh? Sure, anyone can buy a firearm illegally, but doing so and getting caught carries automatic punishments, and for an illegal alien that punishment includes an automatic ban of ever receiving legal status.
gun ownership... i'm all for law abiding citizens owning guns here in the united states. illegal aliens, by virtue of their illegality are not law abiding. further, they're not citizens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
No they can’t. They can’t move free from state to state, meaning, can’t move freely though the states. See, I can travel to anywhere in the states, get pulled over for a minor traffic infraction and not worry about being locked up. If they get caught? It’s an entirely different story.
i'm at a loss as to why, seriously, you refer to illegal aliens as though they should be granted carte blance acceptance, bar none. they moved freely enough across the border - didn't they?

if a prisoner escaped from behind bars and tries to move from state to state and gets pulled over for a minor traffic infraction, guess what? he gets locked up also. why should one law breaker, one who isn't even a citizen, get a break?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Can’t be legally licensed, I think I qualified that with the California question--where that state was trying to pass a law to legally license illegals—which was an aside to the former being able to move freely from state to state…legally.
you did qualify it and i understood what you said. a license, legal documentation of a name and place of residence inside a state, opens the door for streamlining all legal rights of citizenship - a backdoor granting of citizenship status, is my guess.

Quote:
Because, perhaps, little Manuel knew he would be locked up and deported if caught? No mystery there. Goes to further illustrate the point of being able to move freely within the country.
so? you break the law, you get caught, you pay the price. how is this something to be dismissed?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Medicaid for children. Specifically, naturalized children, with the addition of children, men and women, in the process of deportation, and illegal children without next of kin contact that are not of age and go into child services until an adoption occurs, they become naturalized, or are deported.
nope. state and federal dollars are appropriated for illegal aliens to help offset the cost of their free care in hospital centers. no matter how you slice it - that's state and federal money spent to support them.

here in massachusetts, they've taken it a step further. illegal aliens are eligible for masshealth, which is massachusetts medicaid. is that bizarre to you? it is to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Are there ways to circumvent the system? Yes, oh yes. Have I seen affluent able bodied white men drawing assistance? I have. Do I believe an illegal alien could somehow find a way to suckle at the social teat? Fuck yeah. Do I think it’s the norm? Nah.
all walks of life take a stab at abusing the system. that's a fair statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
No, not legally. If they did then it would be a misappropriation of funds, for which someone (of legal status) would be accountable for. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, that people don’t look the other way *bob love some of them* but I am saying I know of no program that assists illegals in living here to work here, unless under a visa or work grant, but not as you outlined.
it's in the wording, bud.

http://www.masslegalservices.org/page/133782;cat_id=312

illegal aliens shouldn't receive state aid for housing, however state agencies are not allowed, or are discouraged, to ask about citizenship status.

nor are they required to ask for or verify citizenship documents when people show up requesting aid of any kind. and not only that, if legal immigrants and illegal aliens house together, the entire household is eligible for aid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
I misspoke, because assistance is given to those who show promise, and usually it’s during the naturalization phase. Also, the military will grant naturalization to some illeagl’s if they serve a term of service. I was stationed with three such individuals while in Alaska. Blew my mind. There they were, not even full citizens, and serving right beside me. But again, in the context of the application, the job assistance was not given to illegal citizens, but citizens in the making.
there absolutely are laws in effect to help those who are going through the motions to gain legal citizenship and aren't quite there yet. i have no problem with that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Last month. And actually, Florida has a law that if a citizen or non-citizen is caught carrying more than five hundred dollars cash, it immediately becomes the property of the state until the person can prove the money wasn’t obtained by illegal means. Which, of course, all monies confiscated from an illegal would be, well, illegally obtained. Right? That’s how my state see it, at least.
yup. illegal. i agree. florida sounds like it has laws more in line with my beliefs. massachusetts... i fuckin' hate this state. i can't, in even my best stretch of the imagination, conjure an instance where the land of kerry and kennedy would allow such a thing to occur.

the worst instance of this (in my opinion) happened here at the hospital one day, when ins brought an illegal pakistani alien into the e.d. because he was complaining of chest pain. they'd picked him up for something, whatever it was and while i was talking to the ins agent, he received a fax from the central office, whatever it's called. anyway, the dude they brought in was wanted by ins for alleged trafficking of illegal pakistanis into the state of massachusetts.

guess what happened?

the docs here said they were going to hold him for 24 hours to monitor his chest pain and the ins gave him a court date to appear for his hearing. moments after, ins left the hospital and fifteen minutes after that, the illegal pulled is wires off and left the hospital. do you think he made his court date? i never checked but i'm guessing "no".

so, it works both ways, i guess - although i'm absolutely behind the way your state handles illegal aliens when they're caught versus mine. perhaps that's why this state is experiencing an influx of human detritus, not that the essence of that thought hasn't already settled within my head long ago.
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:15 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
Edible, it is indeed, there in the fine print, which I've already covered (a bit haphazzardly) on who is eligible for what. Documented and Undocumented, by federal status; citizen, permanent resident, refugee, asylee, withholding grantee, conditional entrant, parolee, registry alien, or 1986 Amnesty Status (legalization). Victims of trafficking are also eligible without regard to status.

Those people are under a different catagory than illegal, and as such, should not be included in the discussion.

I also direct your attention to this link http://www.masslegalservices.org/docs/rrfsp-1b.pdf

And most importantly this bit about Mass welfare

I also swear that all members of my food stamp household requesting food stamp benefits are either U.S. citizens or
aliens in satisfactory immigration status.
RR-FSP-1B (3/2004)
09-250-0304-05
tstone - "undocumented citizen" is the political speak used in massachusetts for "illegal alien". it's their quasi- intelligent / subliminal attempt to redirect attention away from thefact that they're illegals.

and as far as that food stamps contract, you're a more trusting man than i. if you can get something for free, especially when everything you've done thus far points to it without risk, why worry about perjuring yourself on a contract? if the state is hesitant to verify one's citizenship status, what's the risk? really?
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:23 PM   #99
ExistentialDisorder
 
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i never said they had those rights legally. fuckhead. you assume too much.
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"What if everything around you
Isn't quite as it seems?
What if all the world you think you know
Is an elaborate dream?
And if you look at your reflection
Is it all you wanted to be?
What if you could look right through the cracks?
Would you find yourself [or]
Find yourself afraid to see?..." -NIN
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Old 02-13-2006, 12:50 PM   #100
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whoa, wait - i'm not attacking at all, not in the least. i thought we were playing verbal tennis.

serve, volley, volley, return.

all i've been doing is answering your points as you made them and i venture to guess neither one of us is going to change the mind of the other to any significant degree.

i'll answer these new points in that light as well - not as an attack, but in the spirit of debate, discussion and fairly light-hearted verbal sparring.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
On the right to vote issue, you know what? I think I didn’t explain, or add enough sarcasm in there, because with ED I could just lump it in with him being stupid, but since you’ve decided to take it to heart I now have to wonder if I didn’t get the idea across.
since the internet is not always the best way to decipher sarcasm, and because we were involved in discussion, i thought you were making another point - an odd one, i'll agree, but not one i haven't heard before here in massachusetts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
So let me stab at it again. What I was saying, a bit sardonically, is they do not have those rights, none of them. Not to vote, not to drive, not to own firearms, not to receive assistance *other than previously noted* because if they did, well, they wouldn’t be illegal anymore, would they?

No, no they wouldn’t.

So I just thought it was a bit stupid, is all, that ED would make them out to have all these wonderfull rights and privileges, when in fact, they live here in constant fugitive status. Which is the same reason I made the statement about moving from state to state freely, and your comparison of an prison escapee is a correct one, I guess I should have used that example because you did it better than I…and to take it one step further, even a prison escapee has more rights than an illegal alien.
ok. fair. we're in agreement, then - not that it bothers me about the prisoner having more rights. after all, he's still a legal citizen - at least in the example.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Why did the guy run when your cousin hit him?
he hit my cousin. punched in the rear of his car at a stop light. my cousin got out to exchange papers and the guy got in his face, according to my cousin. he told my cousin he didn't have any papers, that he wasn't a citizen and didn't need papers. and he took off.

i don't have an answer as to "why". this was in california.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Because there was nothing to lose. Hell, they even know they are sub-class illegal citizens, and have no fucking assumptions whatsoever as to what will happen if they’re caught. What? They’re going to stand in the welfare line for foodstamps, but go on a 100 mile high speed chase for running a stop sign? A little perspective here, eh?
i don't know what california's laws are regarding illegal aliens, although i imagine they're close to being as liberal as massachusetts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
On the gun ownership issue, I never said they could legally own firearms, I did however say, if they were caught with a firearm it was an automatic lifetime ban for legalization. No hope of ever becoming a citizen.
right. again - play with fire, you might get burned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
As for the federal and state dollars going to hospitals to offset the cost of caring for illegal aliens, show me the statutes, show me where it actually says X amount is for the care of illegal citizens. I’ve agreed that money is allocated for healthcare in the deportation and orientation centers, which are federally operated, but I still have yet to see one shred of proof that any state of federal agency has given any medical facility money specifically to provide health care for illegal aliens.
http://opencrs.cdt.org/rpts/RL31630_20041018.pdf

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Lastly, Edible, I believe you’ve read my previous response in a purely reactionary light, and did not give me the benefit that I was not refuting your claims, but providing an opinion and information on those issues you brought up. I did not personalize it, nor use inflammatory content; I just stated the facts as they are known to me.
seriously, i was just trading barbs with you. that's it. i didn't take your responses personally, not at all.

if i came across as getting personal - it wasn't intentional.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
And for the love of BOB, quit supporting ED’s views! Yours are fine by all alone, and quite different than his.
existential's views are a bit more inflammatory than mine. and that's fine. they're his to have.

just as yours are yours. i neither take offense to nor feel the need to fight with either.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
p.s. I would still like someone, other than me, to provide a view on the economic strain illegals represent. Mine was in favor or an economic surplus, any takers against?
yes. i agree. doesn't anyone else have an opinion?
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