Roman Catholics.

[jack_the_knife]

Originally Posted by Pyre

If you didn't catch my use of grammar, I did not say other "religions." There are religions and then there's the "religion" of Scientology. Religion. "Religion." Not the same. Scientology is a cult, and it's a very harmful one at that.

Granted. But then if you denounce Scientology as harmful, then you must appreciate other people's views when they denounce other religions as harmful. Also, don't misunderstand me when I say "religions", I'm not counting Scientology to religions, I'm counting religions to the "religions".

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by jack_the_knife

What I meant was that I would rather to be forced to believe something that's true ( and proven ) as opposed to some concocted story that some blokes dreamed up some two-thousand years ago.

Ah, but see, that's the thing; you can't scientifically prove or disprove the Spiritual Realm one way or the other.

For me, and many others, the Spiritual Realm -has- proved itself beyond a shadow of a doubt. Can we prove it in a lab designed to measure the physical realm? No. Does that make our convictions about the reality of the Spiritual Realm any less? No, it doesn't.

It's fine if you disagree, but attacking others for simply believing God is real and choosing to obey Him [or attacking any other religion] is very non-productive.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Unimatrix 00

You people have no right.

Do you mock every tradition this way? Do you mock the eating of a turkey at Thanksgiving? Do you mock July the 4th fireworks? These little customs are things that we do, and believe in. They should never be mocked, even if you don't agree with them. One word: RESPECT.

Actually, we have every right, and we have no reason to respect a faith that blows up clinics, tortured and killed thousands of "witches", condemns gays, and seems to think women are lesser than men.

Actually, ask your priest how he feels about you getting pissed on. I bet the Catholics hate that, too.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Pyre

And some "bloke" didn't just dream up Christianity two thousand years ago. Christianity, as well as all modern religions, are all born of the same proto-religion.

What are you talking about? There is absolutely no evidence of a universal proto-religion from which all others emerged.
Christianity originated as a cult within Judaism, which certainly didn't have the same pedigree as, say, Roman state religion, Shintoism, or Buddhism.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Why not just let folks believe as they wish? Why the hostility?

In what way is anyone here not letting you believe what you want?
We're not creating laws to suit our own fairy tale faith.
We're not destroying homes and clinics.
We're not forcing people into our homes of worship.
We're not regularly lying to children.

But I can think of someone who is.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ah, but see, that's the thing; you can't scientifically prove or disprove the Spiritual Realm one way or the other.

Actually, the scientific method is grounded in logic, and logic does not consider the existence of a given object or entity to be a possibility if no evidence suggests that existence.

It's fine if you disagree, but attacking others for simply believing God is real and choosing to obey Him [or attacking any other religion] is very non-productive.

Sure it's productive. It's fun. It produces the feeling of fun.

[PortraitOfSanity]

We need to start feeding Christians to lions again. I'm generally not a big fan of ancient Rome, but this tradition is absolutely inspired. We can start with Pat Robertson.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

Actually, the scientific method is grounded in logic, and logic does not consider the existence of a given object or entity to be a possibility if no evidence suggests that existence.

This is a correct statement, which is why faith flies in the face of human logic all the time.

Sure it's productive. It's fun. It produces the feeling of fun.

Ahh, of course.

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

For me, and many others, the Spiritual Realm -has- proved itself beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I think one can be forgiven for wondering why the proof is always of whatever the person has been primed to believe. People with a Christian background get proof of the Christian worldview. People with a Hindu background get proof of the Hindu worldview. It's the funniest thing, but both deities seem reluctant to reveal themselves to spiritualists in remote parts of Africa or South America, where nobody has heard of Christianity or Hinduism before.

So basically you've got all these different people claiming revelation, but the stories don't match up - except if the two people are coming from the same culture, of course, in which case the rough picture is the same. By contrast, get a Japanese person, an Arab, and an American to look at a painting and then describe it to you, and they'll all describe the same painting. The difference is telling.

It's also curious that these beings willingly reveal themselves in obscure, bizarre ways, but take great pains to avoid manifesting in any objectively measurable fashion, like a proper existant thing. And they never tell anyone anything they couldn't have known through mundane means, etc. etc. However it looks to the person who had the experience, the only sensible conclusion to an outside observer is that the person is fooling themself.

It would all be harmless, except that religion is almost invariably tangled up with morality (it even touts that as a selling point). So you end up with people saying they got a direct personal revelation, which they don't have to prove to you because they can't, and that the revelation verifies the truth of this or that system of belief which happens to have it out for gay people, or Jews, or people who put ketchup on their scrambled eggs, depending on the religion.

It renders people totally immune to reason and intolerant of dialogue in precisely the field where we need them most. Magic man's dictates are more important than our moral philosophy, any real human needs, or my own basic sense of humanity. Magic man told me X. I don't have to prove it. End of discussion.

This is not a principle of thinking we can afford to leave unchallenged.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

This is a correct statement, which is why faith flies in the face of human logic all the time.

Tam...that's not a good thing.

[Tam Li Hua]

Ophelia: Let me rephrase. Believing in something that can not be proven by physical science is illogical, if I am understanding correctly. However, if Faith in the Spiritual is illogical, is that necessarily a bad or wrong thing?

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ophelia: Let me rephrase. Believing in something that can not be proven by physical science is illogical, if I am understanding correctly. However, if Faith in the Spiritual is illogical, is that necessarily a bad or wrong thing?

Yes.texttext

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ophelia: Let me rephrase. Believing in something that can not be proven by physical science is illogical, if I am understanding correctly. However, if Faith in the Spiritual is illogical, is that necessarily a bad or wrong thing?

Let's think about this...

YES
YES IT FUCKING IS

[Tam Li Hua]

I disagree. Faith in something beyond the physical has helped a lot of people. Besides which, those of us who believe feel we have plenty of evidence that makes logical sense to us, though it can't be proven in a lab.

On a different vein, someone who wants to cause harm will find an excuse to do it; he needs not religion to do so.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Stop using spiritual and religious as if they're the same thing. It's pissing me off.

[Tam Li Hua]

PoS: Religion is the earthly search for and the worship of that which is in the Spiritual Realm.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

PoS: Religion is the earthly search for and the worship of that which is in the Spiritual Realm.

That's too asinine to address.

As for the illogical being helpful.
No, it's not.
Encouraging people to believe in things they have NO REASON to believe in is dangerous. Kamikaze, witch burnings, Holocaust, and flying into buildings in the name of Allah are just the most visible examples of this.

What's more, it discourages critical thinking, it discourages personal and emotional independence, and encourages people to look toward someone that they have NO REASON to believe in rather than being resourceful.

[Godslayer Jillian]

If being stupid is necessary for my God to be real, is it really that bad to be stupid?

See, here we have just seen something that I not just an attitude about Tam. It's something intrinsic in all forms of believers.
They would sacrifice everything - rationality, open-mindedness, logic, thought, health, truth itself - if they all seem to point away from their beliefs.
Just look at the writings of all major theologians. Saint Augustine, Aquinas, Mohammed, Martin Luther, and others. For the sake of this thread focus on the first two. In fact, what Tam said almost seems verbatim out of Augustine's Confessions.
In this sense, as Jack pointed out, any religion is just as bad as scientology.

[Tam Li Hua]

I get the feeling that something is getting lost in translation here.

Encouraging people to believe in things they have NO REASON to believe in is dangerous. Kamikaze, witch burnings, Holocaust, and flying into buildings in the name of Allah are just the most visible examples of this.

I completely agree. Like I said before, if someone wants to do harm, he's going to do it regardless of religion; believing in God does -not- make you an insane lunatic no more than not believing in Him.

What's more, it discourages critical thinking, it discourages personal and emotional independence, and encourages people to look toward someone that they have NO REASON to believe in rather than being resourceful.

Being religious and/or spiritual doesn't mean you stop thinking critically at all, nor does it mean you give up your personal and emotional independence. And, usually, folks have very good reasons for believing in God.

Honestly, if it wasn't for God, I'd be ten ways of completely messed up by now. As it is, having something structured and positive in my life has helped me to stay stable when things simply weren't. He gave me hope for the future, and has never failed me.

I am NOT saying that it works this way for everyone, NOR am I saying that there are not OTHER ways for people to gain stability. My only point in the above paragraph is that this is what has worked for me, and for many many others.

What's more, I would be a fool indeed if, after going through all I have concerning the Spiritual Realm, I then turned to it and said, "You're not real and you NEVER were!"

[Tam Li Hua]

Jillian: I don't mind folks not believing in God. What gets to me, though, is the extreme hostility some have for anything religious. What good does it do to aggressively assault someone because of their personal beliefs religiously if they are doing you no harm?

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

if someone wants to do harm, he's going to do it regardless of religion; believing in God does -not- make you an insane lunatic no more than not believing in Him.

That's a lie and you know it.

[Tam Li Hua]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

That's a lie and you know it.

Nope. It's the truth.

You haven't spent a lot of time around sane religious folks, have you?

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

I disagree. Faith in something beyond the physical has helped a lot of people. Besides which, those of us who believe feel we have plenty of evidence that makes logical sense to us, though it can't be proven in a lab.

I'm assuming that the 'evidence' of which you speak is your vague feeling or sensation of assurance that god exists, an impression proceeding from no extant basis. Ideas based on no evidence don't really count as evidence.

On a different vein, someone who wants to cause harm will find an excuse to do it; he needs not religion to do so.

Yes, that's true, but the majority of people are slightly less sadistic than the individual proposed in this hypothetical, and refrain from hating and causing harm to other people not the absence of an "excuse", but in the absence of a reason. If the creator of the universe declared a certain group to be evil, I would certainly not be well-disposed to the idea that the group in question was anything but evil-- fortunately, I'm intelligent enough to recognize that the universe was not fabricated by sapient hands, and therefore that there exists no creator to issue such decrees, but this knowledge is not shared by everyone.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Nope. It's the truth.

So you're telling me you would already merrily stab logic and reason in the back even before having an emotional necessity to do so?

[Unimatrix 00]

As has been said before, if you want to argue about religions, then GO TO ANOTHER THREAD. This thread is for Catholic People and their discussions. Not a thread to bash religion.