Black Goths...Never seen one

[CIRQUEFREAK91]

For what it's worth, I've seen a black metal head.

[Lydia Deetz]

[quote=Heretic;629518]Man am I sick of seeing this. Complain, complain, complain about how ignorant people are, then insult and harass them rather than making any attempt to educate them. For those of you who can’t be bothered to address the topic of this thread, why would you even post anything? In case it has escaped you r attention you are, in essence, trolling this thread. Who needs outsiders when we have you guys on the job?

*rubs bridge of nose*

Anyway, I’m not posting this to just to start a dust-up; I just thought I would add my two cents to the topic since I happen to actually BE an African American Goth, and I happen to have a couple of decades in the culture under my belt. What follows is my particular point of view; take it or leave it.


This is true, but only to a point. You will notice that there are many people who look and sound like Goths, but either refuse to self-identity themselves as such, or never conclude that their opinions and interests fall under the definition. This is true not only of the general population, but of African American as well. There are numerous instances in popular culture, from music to fashion, in which a Gothic aesthetic can be seen in what is typically pigeonholed as “Black culture”.

They’re out there, just not where you would typically expect to find them or wearing what you would typically expect them to wear. I should know; no matter what I wear, most non-Goths think "thug" or "musician" or "cop" long before "Goth" occurs to them (if ever).



I happen to have lived in Minneapolis most of my life. For those of you not up on your demographics, Minneapolis and its sister city St. Paul comprise the second Whitest urban area in the country, right behind Salt Lake City. I have yet to experience outright racism in the Gothic culture here. Generally, the Goths here all feel as though they are unacceptable in the eyes of society at large, whether because of how they look or what they think. In this atmosphere, dark skin is simply one more difference. As a result of this attitude, the Goths I've come into contact with have not treated me noticeable different from how I've seen them treat anyone else.



No one appreciates having others focus on their physical appearance to the exclusion of everything else. Would you need to approach a girl with big boobs differently? How about a really tall person or an overweight person? As they say, we’re all the same color on the inside. Concern yourself with the person inside; who they are and what they’re about. The rest is no big deal unless something relevant occurs. In those cases, just be honest. It's only the ignorant who will take offense and refuse to tolerate simple, inoffensive questions.

And how would there own race see them.[/QUOTE
No one believes “White people” are a singular group; everyone recognizes the various cultures and ethnicities that comprise this group (Italians vs. Irish, country vs. hipster, etc.). My question is: why assume African Americans all think the same or are into the same things? There are numerous subgroups within this ethnicity. Thinking in terms of “their own race” ignores the similarly wide variations within what people typically refer to as “Black culture”.

Don't get me wrong; there are indeed “ultra-culturalists” who denigrate anyone and anything they believe isn’t “Black” enough, just as there are those in society who harbor a hatred for anything “non-White”. The number of people whose minds are THAT narrow is relatively small among both groups



Unlike a few too many others you might find on this board, I can (usually) tell the difference between ignorance and malice. I applaud you for being willing to stand up and make an attempt to educate yourself about what you see as a valid issue.


- Heretic

I know I'm really late into this topic(and I've read every page which is something I usually don't do on topics that get this long) and my two cents won't mean much, but you took nearly every word out of my mouth(and yes, I'm a black goth too in case you haven't read my introduction).

I like reading your posts. They are one of the few I've seen here that is intelligent and deep without being feeling the need to be condescending about it.

Are you still around or have you gotten fed up and left like I almost did? I would like to talk to you on more topics around here.

[Lord Morozco]

I've seen one in high school many ages ago. He drew comics and was very reserved. He mostly militarish green fatigues though. Trenchcoats and shit.

[Kore]

I treat every person the same way as I treat every other person.

[Noumi]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

Ok it's really rare to find a Black goth girl or boy.

"Goth" is just not part of their culture. I'm pretty sure they have more impontart and realistic things to worry about, considering the fact that they're a racial monority, their situation and the lifestyle that most of them have.

[ArchLich]

Originally Posted by Heretic

I happen to actually BE an African American Goth

I chose not to read this entire thread cause it's just way too fucking long and redundant. I just wanted to comment on that particular part of your post. I get irked when black people call themselves "African American", because #1 white people came up with that condescending "nicety" and called it "politically correct" when the term itself embodies ignorance, and #2 when black people accept the term and actually USE it themselves... it's almost as if they're bowing down to whites. To be "black" is not to be "African" dude. Do you have any idea how many countries there are whose native people are originally black? Did you know that the majority of Africa is white? I can understand a white person being ignorant enough to say "all black people are originally from Africa" a little bit more than a black person saying that. Don't you have any self respect? Anyway, I just wanted to get that out there.

[Relic]

I'm now going to give my two cents about the goth thing.

Being an individual of mixed race (White, Black, and Native American) and living in California, I'm going to say that I have found racist goths. The other baby bats in high school hated me...even refused to acknowledge my existence. Even now as an adult I've met racist goths, a couple of months ago I met one woman who came to the conclusion that I could not possibly be a goth. Which was hilarious since my mother(who happens to be white, and yes is my real mother...I've actually HAD to say that before) was standing next to me and was rendered speechless since she thought goths as a whole would be more accepting. My mother sure learned a lesson there about people, and this woman was probably in her late thirties or early forties so it's also not an age thing either.

Now trying to wrap up the rambling...

People are all different, you will find black goths...racist goths... and pretty much any other kind of goth you can think of.

I hope that if anyone gets anything out of my post it's that you should try to focus more on who the person is, rather then who you think they may be.


Relic

[Relic]

Originally Posted by ArchLich

I chose not to read this entire thread cause it's just way too fucking long and redundant. I just wanted to comment on that particular part of your post. I get irked when black people call themselves "African American", because #1 white people came up with that condescending "nicety" and called it "politically correct" when the term itself embodies ignorance, and #2 when black people accept the term and actually USE it themselves... it's almost as if they're bowing down to whites. To be "black" is not to be "African" dude. Do you have any idea how many countries there are whose native people are originally black? Did you know that the majority of Africa is white? I can understand a white person being ignorant enough to say "all black people are originally from Africa" a little bit more than a black person saying that. Don't you have any self respect? Anyway, I just wanted to get that out there.

As someone who is of a mixed background I just feel the need to say that this is the kind of thing that "irks" me. When people try to force any kind of a label on someone elses racial self identity. I've had to deal with these kinds of comments from blacks and whites my entire life and they always think they know better then the person they are talking to about how that individual can or should see themselves.

Oh and the whole self respect thing and the bowing down to whites bit, is an insult and certainly a slap in the face of someone like me who is mixed.

I not trying to be a jerk but these kind of statements come across to me as extremely insulting.

[ArchLich]

Originally Posted by Relic

As someone who is of a mixed background I just feel the need to say that this is the kind of thing that "irks" me. When people try to force any kind of a label on someone elses racial self identity. I've had to deal with these kinds of comments from blacks and whites my entire life and they always think they know better then the person they are talking to about how that individual can or should see themselves.

Oh and the whole self respect thing and the bowing down to whites bit, is an insult and certainly a slap in the face of someone like me who is mixed.

I not trying to be a jerk but these kind of statements come across to me as extremely insulting.

You consider being called an African just because a lot of passive-aggressive white people are idiots to not be a racial self identity? Being black does not make you African, plain and simple. You should be taking offense to the term "African American", not a white person whose trying to defend your racial origins.

[ape descendant]

It makes me rather sad that so much is made of the amount of pigment one may or may not have in their skin. All such a thing really signifies is what amount of UV radiation tends to hit the place of one's ancestral origins. People with more pigmentation tend to hail from equatorial areas, where people with less tend to live closer to the poles where there is less radiation directly hitting the land. Since sunlight is used to synthesize vitamin D, people closer to the poles developed lighter skin to allow for the making of vitamin D in the body easier since a lack of this important vitamin leaves on at serious risk for rickets it makes a lot of sense as to how this feature could have evolved fairly quickly.

A lot of people do not realize that dark skin is the default for most of humanity, and that if we follow our ancestry back far enough, we all originally hail from Africa, she is the mother continent for all human beings. Let's not get caught up in minutiae, and treat each other like family, for that is what we are.

[Relic]

Well ArchLich, I never said I call my self african and even if I choose to...guess where most of the black side of my family comes from... I'll give you a hint... AFRICA.

And my racial origins are a lot more then "black"

Hell...I rarely even consider myself black, it would be more logical to call myself white. I've seen people flip out when I take my shirt off and they realize I have a farmer's tan and I'm really a pale irish white...where most of my family actually comes from.

[ArchLich]

Originally Posted by Relic

Well ArchLich, I never said I call my self african and even if I choose to...guess where most of the black side of my family comes from... I'll give you a hint... AFRICA.

And my racial origins are a lot more then "black"

Hell...I rarely even consider myself black, it would be more logical to call myself white. I've seen people flip out when I take my shirt off and they realize I have a farmer's tan and I'm really a pale irish white...where most of my family actually comes from.

Fine dude. I really couldn't care less where you're from or what race you are. All I am trying to say is that the term "African American" is a political nicety that white people came up with to make black people feel more accepted. It's a bullshit piece of ignorance that makes people think that all blacks came from Africa. If you accept that, then you're an idiot, but that's not my business, therefore as I said, I don't care.

[Relic]

Aside from the fact that I have not one time said that all black people come from africa...hell I even said that most of the black in my family comes from africa not all of it. If you're going to call someone an idiot, at least take the time to read what they said instead of making up your own version.

And again your whole point is about white people slapping a label on black people that you don't agree with yet you don't like the fact that someone else doesn't like you trying to slap on a different label.

It seems like we are arguing the same basic point from different perspectives. Only I don't end things with an insult, why don't we metaphorically shake hands on this and put it behind us.

[ArchLich]

Originally Posted by Relic

Aside from the fact that I have not one time said that all black people come from africa...hell I even said that most of the black in my family comes from africa not all of it. If you're going to call someone an idiot, at least take the time to read what they said instead of making up your own version.

And again your whole point is about white people slapping a label on black people that you don't agree with yet you don't like the fact that someone else doesn't like you trying to slap on a different label.

It seems like we are arguing the same basic point from different perspectives. Only I don't end things with an insult, why don't we metaphorically shake hands on this and put it behind us.

I said *IF* you accept that, then you're an idiot. *IF*. If you don't, then you're not an idiot, and you clearly don't, therefore I didn't insult you.

I'd like to know exactly what "label" I'm putting on black people. Please enlighten me.

[Relic]

Okay, I'm sorry about the insult comment, I was lashing out and it was uncalled for. But you are saying that black people shouldn't call themselves african only black, my point this entire time has been that the labels people choose for themselves are very personal. I don't care if someone wants to call themselves a martian, on some level it must work for them. There are also plenty of black people who have traced their heritage back to africa, which would make it a plausible label.

That's all I'm trying to say every label is a personal thing whether it be black, african or goth. What matters is that it means something to that individual, otherwise the only label that really works is human.

[Lydia Deetz]

Originally Posted by Noumi

"Goth" is just not part of their culture. I'm pretty sure they have more impontart and realistic things to worry about, considering the fact that they're a racial monority, their situation and the lifestyle that most of them have.

Yeah, cause the ghetto culture is way more realistic and more "black". Minority my ass, I refused a long time ago to not let myself be dictated on how I how should dress and act just because of my brown skin.

Even blacks who do reject that lifestyle still play it safe and follow a very conservative lifestyle. I pride myself in having the courage to break away from both of those expectations. You'd be surprised the lengths a lot of blacks will go to keep from being thought of as "acting white" by other blacks or being "outcast" by the rest of society.

To ArchLich: I have mixed feelings about the label of African American. I hate how politically correct it is(like being called black is a terrible thing), but I can see it being used for Africans who do immigrate here.

To Relic: I had to learn hard way that even goths can be ignorant and close-minded. Supposedly, goth is a "white" subculture and any non-white person who chooses that lifestyle is a "traitor" to their race; and some white goths also believe it to an exent(they don't see them as traitors, but still find the idea almost impossible) thanks to the media(how ironic considering goths are supposed to be above that).

You're experience surprised me since I've come across other multi racial goths over the net who say that people overlook their gothic interests because of the "white in them". Because, you know, no full black person*points to self* could dare to be goth.

[scream_qween]

i know several goths who are black and umm ONYX let me tell YOU what, there is this thing and its called REPECT and it seems quite Obvious you do NOT know the meaning of the word. and mamy of the things you have posted are RACIST and it just goes to show how incombatent YOU are, and so this is my opionion so suck it.

[Sephiroth Kali]

Are you fucking kidding me? You people are the mos judgemental close minded group of people I have met recently.

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by scream_qween

i know several goths who are black and umm ONYX let me tell YOU what, there is this thing and its called REPECT and it seems quite Obvious you do NOT know the meaning of the word. and mamy of the things you have posted are RACIST and it just goes to show how incombatent YOU are, and so this is my opionion so suck it.

I did not word my self correctly and I did not say any thing negative about African Americans (Stop looking at it negatively because your not going to get anywhere.). Yes I may sound racist, but, isn’t everybody at times. You also have to understand that I have my views and my experiences and you have yours so why don’t YOU RESPECT that.

As to everybody else, I thought it was a good topic to talk about but I see some of you guys can’t handle a decent conversation with out taking it out of its own terms. Yeah I am a curious a 14 year old (who still has a lot to learn) who has never seen dark skin goths ( Lydia, Relic, and anybody that might have been offended by the terms ‘black’ and ‘African American’, I used the wrong words and I apologize for not seeing this) so I just had to ask a question just like anybody (even if it is the dumbest) else because even I get asked a lot ‘why the hell are you goth, your not white. Damn you lost your culture.’ And at the same time I read the most awesome article about colored Goths (Relic it just reminded my of you).

So….yeah, I just wanted to get that through.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by OnyxBat

I did not word my self correctly and I did not say any thing negative about African Americans

It's ok. You can say black.

Yes I may sound racist, but, isn’t everybody at times.

Not really.

[KontanKarite]

You know... o_0 I wonder if Boondocks would ever cover this kind of subject. I think they've touched on it a little bit with black people acting white.

[OnyxBat]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You know... o_0 I wonder if Boondocks would ever cover this kind of subject. I think they've touched on it a little bit with black people acting white.

Oreos, thats the new terms for that, its pretty mean. I got called a plantain stuffed with starbucks once.

[Lydia Deetz]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

You know... o_0 I wonder if Boondocks would ever cover this kind of subject. I think they've touched on it a little bit with black people acting white.

They have in small passing jokes, but they've never had an episode to focus on it surprisingly. They might, if there's a fourth season. I would definitely watch it. They've put the rest of our "dirty laundary" out. What's one more?

[VXTip]

My first thought was the black punk rocker in Return of The Living Dead, not goth but still a predominantly white subculture.He seemed as normal

[Catch]

I think the problem is people's total lack of knowledge about fashion. You see blond hair goes to dark jacket, while dark hair goes to light jacket. I've known and seen plenty of black goths; however, they do things like dye their corn rows blue or wear green flack jackets, sometimes brights colors.