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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 02-10-2006, 06:55 AM   #26
Blushing Heliophobe
 
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The United States-Mexican border is 3,141 km/1,951 miles long.

Ireland...is an island, dude.

The U.S. is the fourth largest country in the world, encompassing approximately 3,717,810 square miles (9,629,091 square kilometers).

Ireland is an island of 84288 sq. km (32544 square miles).

Also (before I ask this I should probably clarify that it's an honest question), how many people try to get into Ireland for political/educational/social reasons? I mean, how many people are you guys beating back from entering your country?

While illegal and legal immigration presents a problem in the US, I think the topography alone makes the US a waaay different ballgame than Ireland. Add political situations (like refugees) to that, and you're comparing apples to oranges.
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Old 02-10-2006, 02:35 PM   #27
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Right, Sternn. But the problem isn't with the homeless. Not really. Mexicans don't come here to be homeless on our streets. They come here because they know they can work tax-free and send their earnings back to their families in mexico. A lot of them work for construction companies under the table. Its much cheaper for these companies to hire a truck load of mexicans to dig their ditches, lay their cables and do their grunt work and pay them in cash at the end of the day or week than it is to go through and hire a bunch of legal citizens, who they have to insure, etc etc. And its not just mexicans or construction companies. Wal-Mart was busted a few years ago for employing illegals - mostly from the chech (sp?) republic - to do their overnight cleaning in all the stores. I worked there when it happened in my store. Of course they hid behind the excuse that they didn't employ them directly, but instead hired an employment agency that placed those illegals in those various possitions at walmart. These people are given vehicles and housing on top of whatever their hourly pay is and they don't pay a dime in taxes to anyone.
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Old 02-10-2006, 03:52 PM   #28
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Just to be sure, you don't have anything against mexicans, do you?
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Old 02-11-2006, 12:15 AM   #29
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As a people no, of course not. One of my best friends in high school was mexican. Omar. (I almost put his last name but i guess we're not suppose to do that). One of the coolest, funniest guys i've ever known. We had great fun together. Born here in the states. His dad was in the army. And Carlos Mencia is probably my favorite comedian. I watch 'Mind of Mencia' every chance I get. Most of his comedy makes me laugh til i'm in tears. heh.
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Old 02-11-2006, 05:19 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Disfunction
I don't like nationalism because of the artificial divisions it creates between people. I'm entirely supportive of sustaining cultures, but I feel just as much kinship with an 8 year old in Thailand as I do a 19 year old English major not only going to my same university, but living on the same floor as I do in residence. I want just as much to help them as I do anyone on my own soil, because I hold some form of appreciation of the human species rather than the social divisions we have instituted upon ourselves. I am by no means supportive of egalitarian principles that might lead us towards a communist system of equal rights to equal property and equal this and equal that, but I do believe in a world that would dictate equal opportunity for all to attain success.
admirable aspirations, disfunction.

i remember way back when i was a teen and had the many of same feelings, hopes, dreams, and wants as you do now in terms of this. one thing i've learned - once those faceless, unfortunate people from "over there" start to filter into your world, one-by-one, ten-by-ten, hundred-by-hundred and you're working to pay the bills, paying taxes and watching your paycheck shrink, bit-by-bit and your monetary woes never cease while those people from "over there" are showing up in droves, sucking at the tit of your society, your country, your taxes, living for free while you work more and more hours to try and maintain a stable life for yourself and your family - perspectives change.

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Originally Posted by disfunction
In all fairness, someone like me has absolutely no right to be where he is right now. I've done nothing but slack off in school, neglect my studies, drink, smoke, skip classes when I know I should be going, etc. and yet here I am. I don't believe that someone like me who has almost no sense of work ethic should have more of a right to higher education than an individual who would work his ass off to get exactly where I am, only he is unable to afford the costs of higher learning.
except for one thing - you're a canadian citizen. as a citizen of canada, you should be afforded what your country is able to support in terms of its citizenry. your parents work to ensure that assistance for you, just the same as you will someday do for offspring of your own - if you ever decide to, or inadvertently reproduce.

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Originally Posted by disfunction
There is so much more potential available to us as a species if we were to alienate our own self-imposed methods of isolationism. We could address problems as a whole that imapct us as a whole, rather than trying to enforce our own ideologies among people who don't quite share them.
and there is also the potential to self-destroy by trying to take on, quite literally, the weight of the world. if one views humanity as some sort of shining star, a beacon to proclaim everything that's right and beautiful about the earth, it's easy to do while viewing humans in a collective, faceless, body rather than breaking that body down to view the individual parts. humans, on the whole, are greedy mother-fuckers and when deadbeats and do-nothings are given an opportunity to reap the benefits of those working all around them, they will absorb every bit they can and contribute little-to-nothing in return.

and that non-enforcement policy of ideologies you speak of - that should work both ways, even though we here in america break our fuckin' backs to stay open to other people and their cultures. it doesn't work the other way around. people from other cultures come here and complain if they aren't treated exactly the way they are accustomed to in their own land.

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Originally Posted by disfunction
I realize that this is a very flawed way to view the world as there are so many short-comings that would inevitably arise, but I would, as a human being, prefer that we could disgard such concepts... or at the very least do away with extremism. I mean, a truly superior nation's superiority should be self-evident, without need of proclamation.
and now, despite everything i've said - i don't think your view is a flawed view of how the world should work. instead, i'd call it a naive view, but naive here = that of hopeful youth and void of real-world experience. that's not a negative thing. instead, i see it as a right of passage we all go through in life. in order to want to work and be a productive part of society, it helps to want to make society a better place.
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Old 02-11-2006, 05:41 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh
Edible, to clarify once again: I was absolutely not calling you a nazi, with all the ugly racial implications that carries. I know you're not that kind of guy. Thing is, though, the word 'nazi' is really just a contracted form of 'national socialist'. And national socialism is precisely what you describe when you say each nation should "act purely in the interest of our own nation first and foremost". The whole question of race and 'us vs. them'-mentality is just the incentive Hitler used to fuel the fire in a Germany that was down on its knees and was desperately looking for someone to blame for their humiliation and misfortune.
i know you weren't calling me a nazi, pitseleh. last year, i might have questioned your words, but not at this point. it just seemed an odd choice of label for you to use. you qualified it and i'm satisfied with what you were saying.

that said, i've never said i was for an 'us vs. them' mentality. the united states, as with all nations, reside upon the earth. we all, for relative peace, should interact in ways that are mutually beneficial for continued prosperity and survival, however all nations have borders set for a reason. and yes - all nations absolutely should act with their own interests at the forefront. we don't elect governmental bodies at home to care for other countries - although living in america right now would leave you scratching your head in befuddlement at that one - and when a government fails its people by not keeping their eye on the homeland, that's not the beautiful workings of a global community, what that is is fucked up.

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Originally Posted by pitseleh
But that's not what we're discussing here. My view is just that, in the present day and age it would be impossible to sever the economic ties between the US and the rest of the world, not to mention all the other ways in which the world is linked. The most important being that we're all humans. And I completely agreee with Disfunction here. One could choose to pull in different directions, or one could strive to make a world in which wealth, food and security is more evenly distributed. It's not just 'white man's guilt' or whatever you want to call it, to feel blessed beyond deserving to be born in a country where the infrastructure allows for a theoretically endless (although, not really) amount of options. The financial circumstances of each individual is different, but that doesn't have to mean that your level of 'economic viability' should in any way be connected to your right to live. Which is what it would come down to for some if every country should be left to its own devices. Sure, that would work splendidly for a country like mine. We could just hog all those oil-billions for ourselves and grow ever more complacent in our wealth, while the third world buckles under the weight of starving populations, corrupt regimes and whatnot. Situations which years and years of exploitation and colonial rule by western countries has helped create. Not only would they be far worse off than before, but it would destabilise the economical and humanitarian situation for a whole lot of other countries as well.
this is where i think we got our wires crossed. i don't believe the united states should back out of world trade. such a move would hurt us economically. i don't believe the united states should be an island unto itself either. that's neither what i'm advocating nor is it a belief i hold.

i do believe that the amount of money we piss away across the world on an annual basis should be seriously reevaluated and substantially cut. i do believe the government is way too generous with our, the peoples', money. and i think it buys us hatred. lots of it. and the more hatred we buy, the more money we give. it's a ridiculous cycle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pitseleh
And lastly, lest we forget, the UN is actually a pretty important humanitarian organisation who does a lot of hands-on work in zones of conflict and natural disasters. Without them, several countries would be in pretty dire straits concerning refugees, food distribution, water supplies, security, etc. No civilized country should stand idly by while thousands - or even millions - of men, women and children die.
to this i'll just say - ha. your opinion.

not mine.
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Old 02-11-2006, 12:09 PM   #32
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To all you've said, Edible, I'll just put one thing into a particular light. I find humanity, as a whole, to be a plague upon the earth. The evidence available in support of this view is sufficient enough. It's in the individuals that I find hope. I realize that humans are selfish creatures. I think that people were better educated, they could realize the benefits of working as a whole far outweigh being categorically splintered.

I don't believe that being born to a certain family justifies my place in the world. I think that luxuries should be earned. I'd rather live as a vagrant on the streets than be rewarded for being a particular sperm combined with a particular egg. I don't think that who my parents are, the country to which my name is tied, etc. defines me as a person and what I have a right to.

Our world is structured on a basis of imbalance. I'd love for it to be structured on a basis of equal opportunity. Equal opportunity to attain education, equal opportunity to attain succes, equal opportunity to be wealthy, equal opportunity to not fuck up. That's what will never happen, and I recognize that, but I don't believe that the current state of affairs is an appropriate one. The uneven distribution of wealth on a global basis is also responsible for an overwhelming number of problems, including over-population, malnutrition, etc. Some countries have privatized water supplies because they are too deeply entrenched in debt. I cannot just nod my head and say "This is the way things need to be; I just haven't seen enough of the world to understand," nor am I particularly comforted by the propect of falling back into the grasp of a misanthropic and cynical worldview.
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Old 02-11-2006, 12:50 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TStone
Actually, a stable world market would be beneficial to us. If, say, Chinese labor was just as expensive as US labor, then the labor force would have more bargaining power for wage and benefits, and incentives would all come from political means and ways, putting the burden of accountability on the government to drum up new business.
what else would, since what you outlined above isn't likely to occur any time soon, work to create a stable world market? never mind chinese labor, how about cambodian or rwandan internet technology associates? even better, how about the newest medical breakthroughs pouring into the world market from, oh, let's say - lebanon? different countries have different skills / capacities to offer both to their own country and, if necessary to the outside world - and as such, picking and choosing what we need and from where is what works to keep countries competitive to their own capacity.

competition is what keeps people fighting to thrive, not offering xiao xing the same wage as john smith just to keep things equal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
So in those terms, by not taking on the weight of the world and embracing a global democracy *of sorts* then we, and any country, face isolation and economic stagnation. If we want to stop immigration then do we beef up border and coastal patrol, or do we look at the conditions those people are immigrating from, and try to make economic and political changes to elevate them to a comparable standard of living?
i don't agree that isolation and economical stagnation are the result of not embracing a global democracy. i think that tossing monies around willy-nilly without assessing the return on what should be considered investments is more likely to generate a form of economic crisis somewhere down the road.

and the immigration question - yes, we absolutely beef up the border. put the national guard along the line to 'guard' it. it's not our job to beef up other countries, evaluate their way of living and / or elevate their way of life. there are enough people inside our own country who could benefit from just such an evaluation before we do anything along that line elsewhere. i don't understand how the government of the united states of america can look in the face of homeless and unemployed john q. smith and say - "we're bettering things in iraq with 87 billion dollars so they can live a better life, and how was that cot you slept on last night? oh, and don't worry about the immigrants coming over the border. we don't, and not only that, they'll be getting a free ride right after we give them housing." something's very fucked up with the way things are working in this country.

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Originally Posted by tstone
As for all those people filtering in and causing my check shrinkage? I live in Florida. On any given day you can drive down Orange Blossom Trail in Orlando and see the homeless congregate, panhandling in various degrees of wretchedness. Then you can drive by one of the many Day Work centers, early in the morning, and see immigrants and citizens sitting expectantly side by side, waiting for some roofing contractor or a farmer, FEMA representative, to swing in and offer a crumb. I really have no problem with the former, because every society will produce some share of dependants, and as for the latter? Nothing but respect. Those people are already contributing members to a system that doesn’t care for them; they epitomize the ideals this country was founded on, and they are giving a bum deal.
except for one thing - how many of them are here illegally? i don't agree that granting amnesty and even reward to those who break our laws epitomizes the ideals this country was founded upon.

and not for nothing, but the system doesn't care for any of us, not personally. so to paint them as martyrs for working despite hardships of not being cared about doesn't do it for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Work at a soup kitchen for a few days. Go and see the single women with children in toe, serve them up a hot dog with a spoon of beans and a cup of juice. See the men and women that come in from their day jobs, getting a hand out because they—just have no where else to go. They can’t afford to live, to feed themselves, their families, not because they are not trying or working hard enough, but because we aren’t paying them enough.
i don't need to go to a soup kitchen, i see plenty where i'm at. and one thing i've come to notice is the air of entitlement circulating around many who come in exactly as you describe.

also, why is it that people serve others in a soup kitchen? what stops these people from serving themselves?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Hell, our armed forces are the teeming homeless, poverty stricken. The entire time I served, the entire time, we were eligible for foodstamps.

What type of message is that? Our men and women are good enough to die, but not to shelter or to feed--along with their families?
this, out of everything you've written, is the crying shame. no one who serves the country should ever want for basic life needs.

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Originally Posted by tstone
Welfare isn’t the answer, but it is a tempoary answer. Even though *just filed my taxes* I gave 15 *not withheld, but freely given* of my total earnings this past year in charitable contributions; money donations were 11 percent, time and work donations 2.5percent, 1.5 five in goods *even though I couldn’t claim all the deductions* I’m not so naïve to think it did a whole helluvalot of good. But it did do some good. I know some folks, on a few of those 365 days, got at least a few meals. I know some got blankets and clothes. I know I can’t fix the problem; it’s just too fucking big, but I don’t have to be a part of it.
you're a good man, t. you've got a good heart. i've said it before and i'll say it again. if it doesn't bother you that some of your money goes to shitbag illegal aliens and those who just don't care and have decided they won't work because it's easier to sit back and collect a check, so be it. that's your portion of the tax collected and your opinion is yours to have. me? i want a system where i can have a say in where my tax dollars go, just like i have a say in where my donations to my alma mater is allocated.

and to be clear, i'm not talking about legitimate need for help - those born disabled, those on hard times who intend to return to the workforce when they're able, those who need that little extra to keep themselves afloat, the elderly, etc.

i don't want my money going to those who can do for themselves in some capacity and decide for whatever reason to bunk that ability - not a meal, not a blanket, not clothes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Simple fact is, no one likes being poor. Hardly anyone likes living on the charity of others. Maybe I am naïve at 33, because I still think if you give a person a chance, they’ll do something good.
nope. no one likes to be poor. that's why sme of us work three jobs when it's needed. or maybe go back to school when that's needed. that's why some of us work ungodly hours and sacrifice time that could have been spent with our families in order to pay the bills and keep food on the table. that's why, when push comes to shove, those who do get so frustrated at those who don't or flat out refuse to.

naive? i don't know if i'd quite classify you as naive. you've likely got more life experience beneath your belt than i do. however, i'd counter your optimism by saying that last part would depend greatly on just who that person is you're giving the chance.
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:17 PM   #34
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To all you've said, Edible, I'll just put one thing into a particular light. I find humanity, as a whole, to be a plague upon the earth. The evidence available in support of this view is sufficient enough. It's in the individuals that I find hope. I realize that humans are selfish creatures. I think that people were better educated, they could realize the benefits of working as a whole far outweigh being categorically splintered.
i see things diffeently, i guess. i tend to view or anticipate the potential humanity possesses as a whole, however when i break it down to individuals, my hope quickly dies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disfunction
I don't believe that being born to a certain family justifies my place in the world. I think that luxuries should be earned. I'd rather live as a vagrant on the streets than be rewarded for being a particular sperm combined with a particular egg. I don't think that who my parents i agree. I don't think that who my parents are, the country to which my name is tied, etc. defines me as a person and what I have a right to.
you believe faceless others should be granted opportunities you have, for some reason, without giving yourself that same courtesy. not for nothing, dis but that sounds like guilt rather than some desire to balance an imbalance.

your country doesn't define you as a person, i agree. but in the same respect, others not born in your country shouldn't be granted what you have merely because they weren't born there and have less on the whole. when someone feels guilt about their life circumstance, one often wants to give their life away or pieces of their life they feel are greater than what they see around them. i believe that falls under the category of pity, or something very much like it - and no one likes to be pitied except for those who can make a buck off it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disfunction
Our world is structured on a basis of imbalance. I'd love for it to be structured on a basis of equal opportunity. Equal opportunity to attain education, equal opportunity to attain succes, equal opportunity to be wealthy, equal opportunity to not fuck up. That's what will never happen, and I recognize that, but I don't believe that the current state of affairs is an appropriate one.
life is unbalanced. that's not going to change either. what you'd like to see is one people, under one way of life, no borders, no separation - and i agree, that's not gonna happen.

Quote:
Originally Posted by disfunction
The uneven distribution of wealth on a global basis is also responsible for an overwhelming number of problems, including over-population, malnutrition, etc.
distribution of wealth? that makes it sound like someone spun a wheel to figure out where they wanted to put different money amounts. people worked and created and struggled to earn money the world over. diminishing their efforts or the demand for products created dilutes the necessity of competition to continue with man's drive to please fellow men.
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:38 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edible_eye
distribution of wealth? that makes it sound like someone spun a wheel to figure out where they wanted to put different money amounts. people worked and created and struggled to earn money the world over. diminishing their efforts or the demand for products created dilutes the necessity of competition to continue with man's drive to please fellow men.
And you make it sound like wealth is in the possession of those who deserve it. Which is true, if you think that slavery, theft and oppression are fair means to get wealth. I do hope you don't believe that though (or that you believe rich countries got their wealth through legitimate means).
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Old 02-11-2006, 01:46 PM   #36
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And you make it sound like wealth is in the possession of those who deserve it. Which is true, if you think that slavery, theft and oppression are fair means to get wealth. I do hope you don't believe that though (or that you believe rich countries got their wealth through legitimate means).
please define what "deserve" means in this context.

those who are wealthy earn their wealth, or are the recipients of said wealth by virtue of the family line - or because they've hit the lottery.

whatever the means by which one has earned one's wealth can be debated in terms of it's virtue.

i find it interesting that slavery, theft and oppression are the only means by which you believe or at least distinguish someone as able to achieve wealth.... wait, don't tell me - you're a liberal.
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Old 02-11-2006, 06:04 PM   #37
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On boarder patrol, it doesn’t work. It generates its own monetary deficit, and you’ll not keep away those tired and poor huddled masses because they are yearning to breathe free, so they are, and on both sides of the fence you have capitalistic hunger trying to make a buck. The only long-term solution is to raise the quality of living there, which is mostly a win win situation. You open up trade, they have money to afford your products, you have money for theirs, taxes go to their respective governments, laborers work in their respective countries, companies keep their business local and do not shop for cheaper labor just because it’s cheaper.
sure. we enacted nafta and businesses started to leave for the cheaper labor, thusly putting america at a loss. further, we have illegals flooding across the border, once again putting america at a loss. and still, opening trade and working to improve other nations should be a priority for us? i'd say that's strike three.

and as far as border patrol being a loss? it wouldn't be if we did it appropriately. what's appropriate? actually guarding the border with national guardsmen, enforcing the law in terms of illegal aliens trying to gain access. arrest, detainment, perhaps imprisonment for repeat offenders - and have them imprisoned on their own soil. economic packages suddenly drying up if foreign governments don't want to comply with or assist in our endeavors to keep the borders secure would be quite the inspiration. there's LOTS of money involved.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
There is, as in all things, a level of responsibility for all parties involved.
ah, too true. isn't it a pity that the responsibility usually falls solely upon america, though? mexico, for instance, has official pamphlets showing its people how to sneak into america. imagine what good ol' boy chavez would say if economic bundles spontaneously ended until he got his shit together?

how much more would we be hated?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Competition is good; it creates better products, better skilled laborers, and more capital. What’s happening with the immigrant labor is the same thing that has happened with large corporations moving their operations to a third world; only here it’s on a more individual level, and instead of the plants moving to the cheap labor, we have the labor moving to us. We’re perpetuating, and have been for many years, the very thing we claim foul of big business, and then say it’s the government’s fault for letting them in.
if a prisoner broke out of jail to get a job - what would the law do if and when he was caught? claim he was a laborer moving to us and that he embodied america's principles in terms of trying to make a better life for himself?

no.

he'd be cuffed and tosed back behind bars.

illegal immigrants should be tossed back, at the very least. shot as they cross the border at the most... and i'm sure i'll get shit for that. i'm just kidding.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
Wouldn’t be a problem if people didn’t hire them under the table. If small business didn’t want to turn a quick buck by taking advantage of immigrant labor, and if said labor couldn’t find a market to make money here, then they would be forced to go somewhere else. But no, it’s the government’s fault for not keeping them out, not Joe Public for hiring them, eh?
the whole scenario's a problem. illegal is illegal is illegal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tstone
The best scenario, in this case for our current position, is to keep working with our South of the Boarder counterparts, to make sure we keep our business here *think of the recent Carolina furniture market crash* and competitive so we can trade and sell our goods there once they earn the level of wage to afford it. Our biggest export is still Fixed Wing, and from sea to shinning shore, we have a helluvalot more to offer than aviation--so we can’t blame government, or big business, for something we, ourselves, are culpable of.

It is more newsworthy, and seems more hideous when done on the larger scale of government and business, but it’s the same—really—as John Q. Smith hiring a truckload of immigrants to pick his crop, put his roof on, finish the sheetrock. The process, itself, is the problem.
the process allows for the problem to continue because - if someone can save a buck, they will. that's why businesses left for cheaper labor and that's why the illegals come here. smash the process by which shitbags can enter and ouala - people might have to do things legally again.

it's a crazy idea, i know.
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Old 02-11-2006, 06:57 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by edible_eye
i see things diffeently, i guess. i tend to view or anticipate the potential humanity possesses as a whole, however when i break it down to individuals, my hope quickly dies.
I understand this, despite disagreeing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edible_eye
you believe faceless others should be granted opportunities you have, for some reason, without giving yourself that same courtesy. not for nothing, dis but that sounds like guilt rather than some desire to balance an imbalance.

your country doesn't define you as a person, i agree. but in the same respect, others not born in your country shouldn't be granted what you have merely because they weren't born there and have less on the whole. when someone feels guilt about their life circumstance, one often wants to give their life away or pieces of their life they feel are greater than what they see around them. i believe that falls under the category of pity, or something very much like it - and no one likes to be pitied except for those who can make a buck off it.
Not so, good sir. I believe that faceless others should have an equal opportunity to attain the same luxuries. I do not believe that luxuries should simply be thrust upon them. We should have to work as hard as they do, or they should have to work as little as we do (relatively), or there should be a balance brought between. I'm not suggesting that Jose Gonzales from Mexico city should be given all of my money; I'm suggesting that Jose should have an equal opportunity to attain such wealth. Whether he squanders his opportunity would be another matter entirely. In other words, this is far from pity; as far as I can read it, I'd call this equality.

Quote:
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life is unbalanced. that's not going to change either. what you'd like to see is one people, under one way of life, no borders, no separation - and i agree, that's not gonna happen.
That's not entirely true. I don't want a monoculture. I want to do away with political seperations more than anything else.

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distribution of wealth? that makes it sound like someone spun a wheel to figure out where they wanted to put different money amounts. people worked and created and struggled to earn money the world over. diminishing their efforts or the demand for products created dilutes the necessity of competition to continue with man's drive to please fellow men.
That's pretty much the way it went down. North America, when it was discovered, revealed a mass of untapped resources. Each of us living here has one a genetic lottery that we've been taught that, through simply being shot out from your mother's baby maker in this here continent, we've asserted our right to maintain this distribution of wealth. I'm not making a suggestion that we should simply toss money to other countries.

Something that should change should be the debt of such nations as Brazil, which happens to be trapped in a cycle of debt which is slowly killing off the remaining portion of the Amazon due to a need to sell of the best land to the cattle industry, financed by the United States. The soil in the amazon doesn't hold many nutrients close to the surface; when a few growing seasons go through, the soil is devoid of anything to help plants grow, and so they have to cut down more trees.

Who gets the blame? The Brazilian government. The trouble is, they have no choice.

So there. If the debt of Brazil, just as one example, were to be forgiven, that would balance out, partially, the distribution of wealth and allow the country the opportunity to develop further. And it's not just cattle that are a problem, it's also the soy industry, and the exploitation of the people, etc.

Past governments have made thoroughly moronic moves with super projects to spur on the economy, but now future generations are the ones footing the bill as the nations move deeper and deeper into debt.
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:15 PM   #39
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Shut your fucking trap, stone. I'm not a racist. I nearly married a black woman 12 years ago, who I dated for nearly 4 years and who was pregnant with my kid. How the fuck can I be racist? I have nothing against mexicans or any other race. I find humor in the stereo types and jokes that are passed about every body from every race or back ground. I laugh at 'fag' jokes just as often as i do 'wetback', black, redneck or any other racial/background comments. It has nothing to do with being racist. Its about being able to see the humor in life and the world and being able to seperate it from reality. It just so happens that mexicans are the illegals that this country has the biggest problem with. It wouldn't matter what nationality, race or background they were from, I'd say the same. If it was Canadians running across our borders fucking up our economy I'd be saying the same shit. If you like them so much let them live and work in your back yard. And no I have no sympathy for the shit they have to endure while working ILLEGALLY in this country. They have no business being here to begin with. Its not our fault that their government is so fucked up. If they don't like it they need to fucking fix it themselves. I think its fucking poposturous that not only do they come and work here, but when something happens and one of them gets killed or seriously injured on the job their families actually have the fucking nerve to raise hell and try suing the company or the state. GO THE FUCK HOME! If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened.
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Old 02-11-2006, 08:22 PM   #40
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Hey, hey, our government is not fucked up. If america had economical problems and Mexico was a rich country, Americans would do the same
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Old 02-11-2006, 09:21 PM   #41
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Shut your fucking trap, stone.
*growl*
I don't mean to butt in, but Tom is a friend and I'd appreciate you not talking to him in such a manner.

I dig your input in a lot of the threads you post in ED.


All too often politics become personal.

Enough with the venom, guys?

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Old 02-11-2006, 10:21 PM   #42
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I think its fucking poposturous that not only do they come and work here, but when something happens and one of them gets killed or seriously injured on the job their families actually have the fucking nerve to raise hell and try suing the company or the state. GO THE FUCK HOME! If they weren't here it wouldn't have happened.
Umm just what the fuck was this country founded on, if it wasn't Immigrants?

Ellis Island ring a bell?

And let me get this straight. If they have the NERVE to come here and dare to work, and get hurt or Heaven forbid, KILLED on the job; Their families have no right to seek action for wrong doing, or negligence, because they deserved it?

What?

I really don't see your point. Employers have a LEGAL obligation to provide a SAFE workplace for their employees, REGARDLESS of citizenship status.

There is no law that states that a business is allowed to operate their business in a dangerous fashion, as long as they ONLY employ illegals.

How ridiculous would that be? " Oh it's just illegal aliens, who cares if they get hurt.. "

The American Railroad System is bathed in the blood of Asian Immigrants, because of Simple Minded ideals, such as that.

" Who cares if they're dead, there is a thousand more Coolies waiting to take his place.. "

Having recently spent time in Mexico, I can tell you firsthand that I would do the EXACT SAME THING for MY Family, if I was forced to live in that corrupt shithole. And the Economic situation isn't the only thing that is lacking the citizens of Mexico. The Educational system, the NON-EXISTANT Health Care system, the list goes on and on.

You name it, it's totally fucked.

Why shouldn't someone have the right to seek a better life for their families?

Why shouldn't a father have the right to bust his balls, doing whatever odd jobs he can land, to make sure his kids eat, have medicine when they get sick, have a fair chance at an education beyond the 2nd grade?

Most Immigrants I know, work HARDER than any FIVE Citizens.

They have a strong work ethic, and are just bone grateful to be somewhere with Opportunity and Hope for their future, and their children's future.

Where is the Evil in that?

We as Americans are ALL Immigrants.

To claim Superiority over OTHER IMMIGRANTS is not only Sad, but wholly Hypocrtitical as well.

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"What, then, is this new man, the American? They are a mixture of English, Scotch, Irish, French, Dutch, Germans, and Swedes. From this promiscuous breed, that race, now called Americans, have arisen. "
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"Remember that when you say "I will have non of this exile and this stranger for his face is not like my face and his speech is strange," you have denied America with that word."
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"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp! cries she with silent lips. Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me; I lift my lamp beside the golden door."
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Old 02-12-2006, 02:36 AM   #43
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I knew the 'this country founded on immigrants' line would pop up eventually. No, we're not all immigrants. Try looking up its definition. Unless you were born in another country and later moved here, you're not an immigrant. You might have immigrant ancestors, but that still does not make YOU an immigrant. Just the decendant of one, or two or ten. "African-Americans"? Bull. Shit. Politically Correct, pulled-it-out-of- their-asses fucking bullshit. Unless they were born in Africa and later moved here and established citizenship LEGALLY, they're simply Americans. My grandmother was an Italian-American. Why? Because she was born and raised in Florence Italy, then married my grandfather and moved with him back to the US, where she studied, learned to speak and write in English (which is still, for now, a requirement in order to obtain citizenship status here), and got her citizenship. Thus making her an Italian-American IMMIGRANT.

But back to my previous... Why do you think it is that pregnant women from mexico, again, try their damnedest to get across the border before their kids are born? So that they are born in the US, making them natural born US citizens. (NOT IMMIGRANTS) And somewhere down through the twisting vines of politics it allows their mothers to stay here too. Legally. At least for a while. And you know, I really don't have a whole lot of problems with that.

Case in point. Sort of... There's a man in Atlanta, GA who'se been fighting to keep his daughter. I think she's somewhere between 8 and 10 years old. Maybe younger. He's a legal US citizen. Whether he was born here or came here later I don't remember. Regardless, he's completely legit. I think he even has some sort of government job. Or maybe he's a cop. Dunno. His daughter, however, is not. So the feds are taking his daughter from him and sending her back to mexico, or panama, or somewhere else, in south america, where her mother lives, and where she was born. Why can't she stay here with her father, where she wants to be? What is the harm in one little girl staying here where she does have a legal parent, who is perfectly capable of taking care of her, putting her through school, etc? Its definately not because her mother wants her back. If I remember correctly it was her mother who did everything she could to send her to live with her father because she knew she'd have a better life here.

So they can target this one little girl and make her and her father's life hell and yet let truck loads of adult illegal immigrants in every day and do absolutely not a fuckin thing about it.

And its really not so much that I have a problem with them coming over here wanting to work and earn a living. I said that much earlier, that I don't blame them for wanting a better life here. But of course, as always, you people like to pick and choose sentences and statements made, to bash, criticize, etc, and completely ignore the rest of it. The problem is, for one thing, the sheer number of illegals coming in day after day after day. The domino effect it all has on everybody else that's here legally. Whether they were naturally born here or legally obtained their citizenship status. Doesn't matter. You have one group of people that are legal, and another group that are not legal. The illegals are flooding into a country that they do not legally belong in, taking jobs from those who do legally belong here, not paying taxes, milking the legal citizens of their tax money, education system, health care, etc, (not to mention (and this is not a race thing, again), causing crime rates to sky rocket in areas that are heavily populated with said illegal immigrants. Try looking at demographics stats vs crime rate stats sometime.) Then turn around and send all the money they're earning illegally back to their country, for the benefit of that country. What do we, as a society, benefit from them being here? You want to bitch and moan about their benefitting from our society because its so much better here, and that people in a society should help each other out. Really. What benefits do we get? Higher crime rates, less jobs, more taxes, less heath care. Answer?

I have absolutely no problem with them coming here to work, I will say again, as long as they are working legally. Contributing to our economy and society legally, as the rest of us are required and expected to do.

Here's a bit of trivia for you. In the UAE (that is the United Arab Emirates), if you are not a born citizen, then they expect you to be working. Once you reach retirement, you go home. If you're not working, you go home. Home being whatever country you came from, because its definately not there. There is no option for obtaining your citizenship there. You can live and raise a family there, they love that. But as soon as you stop working, or are no longer able to work, for whatever reason, its time to go. No if's ands or buts about it. Why do they do that? Because they believe that if you were not born in that country, then you have no right to be there. They allow you to be there as long as you are working and contributing to their society. (And no, having a kid born there does not make your kid a citizen, just another of your dependants). Once you're no longer able to do that, you leave. If you're a citizen, well then you're treated like royalty and foreigners have to all but bow in your presence. I was arrested once while I lived there, by a citizen, for using a video camera in an area that video cameras were not allowed. I didn't know that of course or I wouldn't have been using one. Had I not had a diplomatic passport and green card, who knows what the hell would have happened to me. Anyway...

[QUOTE: Empty_Purple_Stars] Employers have a LEGAL obligation to provide a SAFE workplace for their employees, REGARDLESS of citizenship status.[/quote]

Yes. and Employers have a LEGAL obligation to employ LEGAL CITIZENS. Or, those who are LEGALLY allowed to work here.

If you're here illegally, doing whatever the hell it is you're doing, and some shit happens to you, tough shit. Reap what you sow.

Example. If you're in a car accident where its clearly, completely the other motorist's fault that caused the accident, but you don't have a legal drivers license or registration, or you're driving under a suspended license, or in some cases even if you simply don't have insurance, or its expired or lapsed, you're automatically charged with the accident, because in the eyes of the law YOU had absolutely ZERO business driving to begin with. Which means if you hadn't been driving, the accident would not have happened. It doesn't mean that it happened BECAUSE you were driving illegally, it just means that you didn't have any business driving, so therefore it's still your fault. It doesn't make the injuries and/or subsequent deaths any less tragic, but it does make it your fault. The same rule applies to illegal imigrants. If they weren't here, those accidents would not have happened to them at that particular place and time. They had no business being here. No LEGAL right to be here.

I'm all for people from where ever, trying to make the best of it for themselves and their families, as long as they go about it the right way, the legal way, and don't cause harm to those others who are already there doing the same thing, the right way. But when they start fucking up my shit, taking away various opportunities or benefits that are legally entitled to me, I get pissed off. And when I'm expected to bow to them, change my way of life to accomodate them, no. Fuck that shit. I'm sorry their country blows. Shit happens. I'm not responsible for whatever it is that caused their economy, or their environment to suck. If you want to get right down to it, they're responsible. They live there. They were born there. They have the power to change shit there for the better. They choose not to. Instead they choose to run away from their problems, or beg somebody else to fix their shit for them, instead of doing it themselves. How many countries send us money to fix our health system or education system or feed our hungry, shelter our homeless? If the day ever comes that there's not one single homeless man or hungry kid on any street corner of any city or town in our country, none of our LEGAL citizens are living paycheck to paycheck, and our economy, national deficit, etc, isn't in the hole, then by all means send the extra dollars to those that need it most.

The ironic thing is, you all want to bitch about national socialism and how horrible it is, yet wanting to dole out the wealth and resources and equal rights to the rest of the world so that nobody goes without. is that not global socialism? The concept of having natural rights to the land you were born on is nothing new. Its how the world has worked since the beginning of civilization, both man and animal alike. Its only when that land and its resources are taken by others that things change. When all the illegal immigrants have finally come here and our economy is hopeless, where do we go? what happens to us?
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Would you find yourself [or]
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:13 AM   #44
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They can pray to Allah
I get really pissed off when people directly link Allah with Islam.Allah is Arabic for God,and we,Christians,pray for Allah too whenever we're referring to God.
Just thought that I might clear this...
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:17 AM   #45
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bada-bing! i empathize with your frustration on so many levels. and it really is odd how many names, labels and accusations come flying at you while you try to express an opinion opposite or aside from what the "politically correct" factions deem is the only appropriate opinion to have. i wonder how many people here would label the uae as a racist and / or xenophobic people or culture or country based on the information you provided? probably none. if the uae lives by what they see fit, or any other country for that matter, it must be the right thing to do.

imagine if that same edict came down from the u.s. government, though? there'd be riots in the streets declaring just how horrible we are.

double standard. reverse tolerance. america is shit and other countries are great. it's an insidiously caustic belief that threatens to burn away any sense of national pride and i'm not talking about pride as in - "america power!" - i'm talking about pride, as in "we're not a horrible country just because the rest of the world says so until a dollar bill flashes before their eyes."

that actually makes me think of a spoiled kid that throws a temper tantrum until he or she gets what he or she wants. heh.
--------------------------------------------------------
anyway, i got home from work last night, made some food and drank a beer. i walked into the living room and to my surprise, my wife was reading gothic.net entries, specifically the exchange between tstone and i from yesterday. she asked who tstone was and i told her, based on what she knows of him from what i've told her in the past. and you know what she said?

- sigh -

"he's a good writer.", she said. "he makes a lot of sense. you, however... you sound like a raving lunatic."

my wife. born and raised in massachusetts, the land of kerry and kennedy.

i can't win.
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Last edited by edible_eye; 02-12-2006 at 05:23 AM.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:22 AM   #46
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I get really pissed off when people directly link Allah with Islam.Allah is Arabic for God,and we,Christians,pray for Allah too whenever we're referring to God.
Just thought that I might clear this...
i spent most of my young life in catholic school (still trying to purge that fuckin' guilt from my tarnished soul) and never once was i told to pray to "allah", despite the arabic translation. those fucks chanting "praise allah, death to america" on television aren't praying to the same god i used to.

just thought i might clear that.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:30 AM   #47
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Hey, hey, our government is not fucked up. If america had economical problems and Mexico was a rich country, Americans would do the same
sorry to let you down but your government is hugely corrupt. and the funny thing is - your land is rich, rich, rich with natural resources. how is it your people and governmental structure is unable to tap it for what it's worth to improve conditions?

your country could be so much stronger than it is. i don't get it.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:33 AM   #48
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I'm in a catholic school,and I live in an Arabic country and when we're praying in Arabic,we use Allah.And I,for sure, am not a Muslim...
However,there's this stereotyped idea that Allah is the God Muslims pray for.Allah is Arabic for God,and since Muslims are mostly Arabs and pray in Arabic,this term has been linked to them.
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Old 02-12-2006, 05:37 AM   #49
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i spent most of my young life in catholic school (still trying to purge that fuckin' guilt from my tarnished soul) and never once was i told to pray to "allah", despite the arabic translation.
Yeah,of course you're not going to pray to allah since you were in an American catholic school,if I'm not mistaken.You pray in English,that's why you use God.
In France,they use Dieu.Here,we use Allah.And we're all praying to the same God.
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Old 02-12-2006, 06:07 AM   #50
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I believe that faceless others should have an equal opportunity to attain the same luxuries. I do not believe that luxuries should simply be thrust upon them. We should have to work as hard as they do, or they should have to work as little as we do (relatively), or there should be a balance brought between. I'm not suggesting that Jose Gonzales from Mexico city should be given all of my money; I'm suggesting that Jose should have an equal opportunity to attain such wealth. Whether he squanders his opportunity would be another matter entirely. In other words, this is far from pity; as far as I can read it, I'd call this equality.
in a perfect world, with perfect people and perfect allocation of resources - you provide a beautiful picture. alas, without a worldwide purging of humanity as it is and a subsequent rebirth of man slanted more toward an altruistic, selfless state - i can't ever see it happening.

reach for the stars... settle for standing on the curb to look down upon the street.

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That's not entirely true. I don't want a monoculture. I want to do away with political seperations more than anything else.
doing away with political seperations, with where we are as a people, would be to remove all discussion such as this. it would be to remove the only system of checks and balances we have as a people. the world is absolutely an unbalanced arena. different mindsets and the debates resulting from such are the best tools we have as a people to institute some semblance of balance, or at the very least, to institute ideals on a trial basis until proven either worthy or inappropriate.

we (you and i) have different political leanings, different views of how the world should work. there's no secret there. imagine what it would be like if you were not allowed to speak your mind, though because my view was "the way it is". it would make you nuts. same for me if my voice was silenced.

the greatest curse and the greatest blessing we, as humans, have been granted is the ability to reason our way through information we are presented with. removing that opportunity from our lexicon of abilities would be to stagnate our growth, despite how tumultuous discussions such as this sometimes get.

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That's pretty much the way it went down. North America, when it was discovered, revealed a mass of untapped resources. Each of us living here has one a genetic lottery that we've been taught that, through simply being shot out from your mother's baby maker in this here continent, we've asserted our right to maintain this distribution of wealth. I'm not making a suggestion that we should simply toss money to other countries.
really? so, the forethought to tap those resources and create a world of invention had nothing to do with it? you're saying that by virtue of said "resources" being a part of the land, people spontaneously became "rich"? and conversely, by virtue of genetics popping out in other lands, they were destined to be unable to tap their own resources to make a better way of life?

i remember being taught in school, way back when (5th or 6th grade) that i was born into the greatest country on earth and it was my responsibility, as a citizen, to work hard and learn as much as i could in order to keep this country going strong. they're not allowed to teach messages like that anymore. something about it being offensive to other cultures, or some such shit. maybe other cultures need to get some ego pumping happening instead of whining and complaining about what they don't like about america.

waaah-waaaah-fucking-waaaah.

Quote:
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Something that should change should be the debt of such nations as Brazil, which happens to be trapped in a cycle of debt which is slowly killing off the remaining portion of the Amazon due to a need to sell of the best land to the cattle industry, financed by the United States. The soil in the amazon doesn't hold many nutrients close to the surface; when a few growing seasons go through, the soil is devoid of anything to help plants grow, and so they have to cut down more trees.

Who gets the blame? The Brazilian government. The trouble is, they have no choice.
they have no choice because all they have is the opportunity to be subservient? or they have no choice because they have no one, throughout their entire country, who is able to figure out alternative ways for their people to be competitive in order to generate a better way of life? or they have no choice because people in the united states are a bunch of shitheads?
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