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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 01-23-2013, 09:50 PM   #26
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I think you are.
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Old 01-23-2013, 10:44 PM   #27
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"They" seems to have taken on the role of a singular neutral pronoun even though it is technically plural.

You are being much more sensitive about it than most people but there are plenty of people who would get offended about that sort of thing so how sensitive you should be about it kind of depends on the people and situation.
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Old 01-23-2013, 11:22 PM   #28
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I've been told "they" is grammatically correct as a singular pronoun and has been used that way for a pretty long time, and later male pronouns as generic became preferable.

And I think it sounds a lot less awkward that ze/zir. In The Left Hand Of Darkness Le Guin used male pronouns because at the time she assumed they were gender neutral, later realized it wasn't, and decided to rewrite a chapter in female pronouns and again with a gender neutral pronoun, I think she used e/er, which to me is less weird sounding, but just sounds like I'm a hick Newfie dropping her h's. So I use "they" in general until told otherwise, and even practice calling cis people "they" so I don't slip up.
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Old 01-24-2013, 08:47 AM   #29
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For the sake of avoiding being rude...

How does one go about knowing how to address someone when one can't identify gender and the information isn't provided yet you want to avoid being wrong?

Oddly enough, I don't know any gender neutral pro-nouns off the top of my head. *Off to look some up*
There's a whole series of SNL sketches about this. Also a feature-length movie because if there's one thing 90's SNL loved to do, it was expand single-joke sketches based on social awkwardness into terrible movies.
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Old 01-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #30
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I usually just go with the pronouns that line up with one's presentation, which factors in dress, hairstyle and name.

If some one is in the sgm community and I can't tell one way or the other I'll ask which pronouns one prefers.

Did you find any cool gender neutral pronouns? My favorite is zie/zir (I've got a thing for the letter z). In practice I end up using they/their/them in general conversation especially if I haven't had my coffee yet.
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Old 01-24-2013, 02:32 PM   #31
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I usually just go with the pronouns that line up with one's presentation, which factors in dress, hairstyle and name.

If some one is in the sgm community and I can't tell one way or the other I'll ask which pronouns one prefers.

Did you find any cool gender neutral pronouns? My favorite is zie/zir (I've got a thing for the letter z). In practice I end up using they/their/them in general conversation especially if I haven't had my coffee yet.
Generally the way i go about it.
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Old 01-24-2013, 11:04 PM   #32
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Shh. We can't be bothered to actually ask a trans-woman.
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Old 01-25-2013, 07:30 AM   #33
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I think not asking a gender is more about the fact that such questions are often considered to be extremely rude, especially when they're directed at a stranger, rather than laziness.

I mean, just sayin' my friend's kid is Female->Male trans. His parents kept searching for a school, and finally found one when another kid said: "So, are you a boy or a girl?" an a second student reprimanded him with "That's not an appropriate question!"

Granted, things are different between adults, but it's not always so cut and dry. For good or ill, there are serious social taboos about asking a person's gender, and you rarely know how they're going to take it.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:07 AM   #34
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Generally the way i go about it.
I actually asked the wrong question.

I should have asked if there is a formal gender neutral pronoun like ma'am or sir. I was trying comrade for a while, but it just sounds weird to call people a thing in which they totally aren't sometimes even though it's the only neutral word for respect I can think of.

Even after looking I couldn't really find one.
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Old 01-25-2013, 10:41 AM   #35
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I actually can't think of any that would replace sir/mam. Other than inv the military, i haven't actually used sir/mam. Although, i'm sure of you mean respect most people won't take offense. I mean, its a bit disheartining being sir'd, but i get it, and i understand i can' t demand all of society to instantly understand. It's after i tell them i'd appreciate another pronoun and i go ignored, then i'm offended and angry.

I have recently noticed that here in Cali, "dude" has become interchangable between all genders. Not sure if that's the same in other places. And it's not exactly respecting. But, nifty none the less.
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Old 01-25-2013, 11:30 AM   #36
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I know I say it too, but I actually don't like guys or dudes as generic, because they are gendered, its just a continuation of the "male is universal" language scheme we have.

I think Versus is the only one I call sir, and that's pretty jokingly. Quakers use "friend" which is nice.
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Old 01-25-2013, 12:51 PM   #37
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I should have asked if there is a formal gender neutral pronoun like ma'am or sir. I was trying comrade for a while, but it just sounds weird to call people a thing in which they totally aren't sometimes even though it's the only neutral word for respect I can think of.

Even after looking I couldn't really find one.
How about "they"? It has the benefit of not being gibberish.
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Old 01-25-2013, 03:01 PM   #38
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I prefer "Captain".
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Old 01-25-2013, 04:24 PM   #39
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It is really funny how language works though, isn't it? Its very cultural. I was reading a book by Thich Nhat Hanh last week and he was saying in it that in Vietnam, they don't have a word for "I", they say "toi" which literally translated means "your servant." And if you're talking to someone who's older than you, regardless of relation you'd address them as "big brother."
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Old 01-25-2013, 05:23 PM   #40
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I found that addressing someone in a gender neutral way was actually a lot easier in the south, you can use terms like darlin' to refer to anyone, even when in a semi-professional situation.
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Old 01-25-2013, 06:40 PM   #41
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I found that addressing someone in a gender neutral way was actually a lot easier in the south, you can use terms like darlin' to refer to anyone, even when in a semi-professional situation.
Do men call each other darlin'? I was going to mention here men and women call women and children "m'love" even semi-professionally but now that I've thought about it, I don't recall a man ever calling another man m'love.
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Old 01-26-2013, 08:39 AM   #42
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Inappropriate use of terms of endearment are infantilizing, you won't see men doing it to each other.
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Old 01-26-2013, 10:10 PM   #43
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Men don't really call anyone other than their significant other Darlin', they are much more likely to either use Bud/Buddy/Pal for everyone or use that for men and something sugary for women (which is falling out of favor) and there are some who use the sweeter names for everyone, there was even a guy in my last complex who called everyone Sweets.

That being said there is still a fuck ton of homophobia down south so in order for a man to use terms like that without social repercussions he would have to be sufficiently manly.
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Old 01-27-2013, 08:50 AM   #44
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My male partner does sometimes get called Luv by the old dudes when serving in the pub. Still kind of odd sounding.

I would use 'my friend', but (to my ears) it could sound sarcastic or ingratiating if you didn't know the person well.
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Old 01-27-2013, 10:19 AM   #45
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My male partner does sometimes get called Luv by the old dudes when serving in the pub. Still kind of odd sounding.

I would use 'my friend', but (to my ears) it could sound sarcastic or ingratiating if you didn't know the person well.
I guess it depends on the tone. In Dragon Age I didn't blink when King Cailan was all like "Ho there, friend!" when I met him.

It would kinda force everyone to sound nicer and more polite I suppose to avoid sounding like an ass.
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Old 01-27-2013, 01:11 PM   #46
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Had a case of trickle down feminism today, only not really about classism. In my psychology class I'm taking online, we had to take this test to measure our ambivalent sexism, and it compared our levels of hostile sexism to our benevolent sexism. And we had to talk in our discussion area if we still see benevolent sexism today. A lot of the women replied that they see it, but its a good thing, because their husbands/boyfriends do a lot of nice things for them and they need them.

And its like, okay, you benefit from it, don't mind the women who get murdered and beaten and ***** because they can't live up to benevolent sexist stereotypes. No, you're right, its a good thing.
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Old 01-30-2013, 02:43 PM   #47
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When my friends who are married to men tell me about their problems, it only drives the point home, just how many women are forced into walking the line between benevolent and hostile sexism.

Its such an ugly, stupid game.
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