Proposition 8 Overturned

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

If it hadn't been so easy for New England, would it still have gotten as much attention?

And why care more about California than New England? That in and of itself doesn't make sense, unless you actually live in California.

How can we say whether it would get as much attention without it happening, and what reflection would that have on your ridiculous assertion? You are going to have to face the fact that California is a much higher-profile state than Maine, Vermont, Massachusetts or any of the other New England states; people just care more. On top of that, does New England strike you as a community of social unrest and upheaval? Was Harvey Milk the first gay man in office in California or in fucking Rhode Island? Is the Castro District in California or in New Hampshire? What about Laguna Beach? The SoMa? Hillcrest? New England has nowhere near as much LGBT history as California. You don't have a clue.

[Saya]

Maine got a shit load of attention too, but California actually had people getting married, and then said "no more". . This is a fucking HUGE win. When the homophobes appeal, they raise the stakes for the rest of the country. They take this far enough, it can legalize genderless marriage everywhere.

Its really telling how privileged you are as a straight woman that you can't emphathize with people who experience discrimination based on who they chose to be with. You can dismiss it as a joke and say it should have been left alone, but fuck that attitude. Did you know that before women got the vote, direct votes have barred them from doing so? Nothing gets changed when the majority gets to fuck everyone else over.

And when you're not allowed to be in the hospital room with your partner, or you are seperated into different nursing homes and everything is taken away and you can't inherit your partner's belongings, being married "in the eyes of God" only isn't going to save you. Legal rights will.

And shit, I hate how people assume Christians invented marriage. What if a Buddhist couple got married, hm? The religion by and large doesn't have a problem with homosexuality (generally). But I guess if a two thousand year old book says gays should be stoned thats good enough to deny living humans the right to be legally bound to their partners.

If this was about interracial marriage you'd be singing a different tune, but since its "only" LGBTQ who gives a shit, right?

[JCC]

Tam is more interested in the New England cases than the California case because New England was more of an ideological battle in the courts supported by a liberal, college-educated white community rather than a genuinely gay grassroots struggle against persecution. The reason she says Californian homosexuals are looking for attention is because she would much rather that heterosexuals can swoop in and work their heroics while the gay community sits back and swoons and acts like effeminate Uncle Toms, any action taken by the gay community itself is just showing off.

[gothicusmaximus]

Guys, Tam just doesn't want to see whiny faggots on her TV.

[Alan]

So Tam, I actually read your whole 'article' without throwing up.
A specific part resonated more than the rest:
"Most importantly [and I believe most of America feels this way about a lot of political issues], why should I care when it has nothing to do with me?"

You know most people didn't give two shits about the Civil Rights Movement either, right? The majority in the south didn't want fucking n.iggers voting and the majority in the north didn't care.
I can just imagine you living in the 50's and saying "yay I guess. I'm not black so why should I care?"


Fuck that forever.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

7,1,25,19 - 4,5,19,5,18,22,5 - 20,8,5 - 19,1,13,5 - 18,9,7,8,20,19 - 1,19 - 8,5,20,5,18,15,19,5,24,21,1,12 - 3,15,21,16,12,5,19 - 9,14 - 13,25 - 2,15,15,11.

12,5,20 - 20,8,5,13 - 7,5,20 - 13,1,18,18,9,5,4, - 23,15,21,4, - 9,20 - 8,21,18,20 ?

[Tam Li Hua]

*sigh*

I hate this place. I don't know why I come here.

[Saya]

Yeah, too many fags around here who care about their rights and shit.

[Ráskógr]

Tam, you really need to study up a bit before you go rambling on about this. California is one of the most populous states in the union. Of course a case such as this will receive more attention there, especially since this is the fourth time this issue has made major impact in that state. You're grasping at straws, and in the process your rhetoric is not only insulting to the GLBTQ community, it's insulting to everyday people who support them, who see the unacceptable injustice in denying marriage to gays and lesbians in a country that loudly ptoclaims liberty and freedom for ALL its citizens.

[ape descendant]

I don't know why one story gets more media attention than another... you may try talking to the associated press about that one.

Just because one story gets more or less attention than another in the media, doesn't automatically mean that people involved in the issue care about one instance more than another.

[Ráskógr]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

*sigh*

I hate this place. I don't know why I come here.

You might consider it an opportunity to learn. From the looks of this topic, there's some damn good teachers here.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

*sigh*

I hate this place. I don't know why I come here.

Good question, perhaps you should leave.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Now that I can understand. It -is- unfair to be with your beloved for several years, and not be able to raise kids [if that's your thing] and not be able to make the difficult medical decisions, if necessary.

Yeah, you get it.

[HumanePain]

In the California case there was an element of attention whoring, but not by those fighting to win equal rights. Those who were discriminating against their neighbors by promoting Prop. 8 are the ones seeking attention...and power.

The scheming religious leaders stir up their flocks, why? Does it improve their legal rights? No. It is to throw negative propaganda upon the Democrats (or anyone even thinking about supporting equal rights) so that the bullshitter's candidates get votes and wrest power away from incumbents or Democratic opponents.

Ultimately it comes down to an economic battle for votes and power by manipulating the media and voters, and gays are caught in the cross fire.

[Ráskógr]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

In the California case there was an element of attention whoring, but not by those fighting to win equal rights. Those who were discriminating against their neighbors by promoting Prop. 8 are the ones seeking attention...and power.

The scheming religious leaders stir up their flocks, why? Does it improve their legal rights? No. It is to throw negative propaganda upon the Democrats (or anyone even thinking about supporting equal rights) so that the bullshitter's candidates get votes and wrest power away from incumbents or Democratic opponents.

Ultimately it comes down to an economic battle for votes and power by manipulating the media and voters, and gays are caught in the cross fire.

All so true, but you forgot to mention all the money, and the power behind it, which these fanatical right wing morons stand to lose when marriage regardless of gender becomes the standard. They won't be flying all over the country in private jets and staying in posh hotels, where they can lobby the ignorant, meek masses and convince them their bigotry and hatred is justifiable. They won't be raking in millions to support their bigoted campaigns, claiming they're standing up for what is "right" and all the while funneling off money and power into their own coffers. Never forget, the love of money is the root of most evil.

[ssj_goku]

-.-#

its sad that the govrnment can tell ppl what the y have to do.

theyre ingoring the will og california

[Ráskógr]

Originally Posted by ssj_goku

-.-#

its sad that the govrnment can tell ppl what the y have to do.

theyre ingoring the will og california

Bullshit.

In regard to this case, the government (i.e. the judicial system based on the United States Constitution) isn't telling people they have to do anything other than stay out of other peoples' business.

This case has been a prime example of representative democracy at work.

[allyssa]

a toast:

yay, to the people who worked so hard and fought soo long for equality, to all the activists who made this happen
yet I feel this type of battle will never be fully over
cheers! sips absinthe with cheshire cat smile!

[ape descendant]

Ras, the only time I would even pay attention to goku's opinion is when it comes to dbz trivia...

I mean... that statement was barely coherent, I don't think that he even knows what it means.

[Ráskógr]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

Ras, the only time I would even pay attention to goku's opinion is when it comes to dbz trivia...

I mean... that statement was barely coherent, I don't think that he even knows what it means.

Got it.

*****************************

You look familiar if that's your photo in the avatar. Do you, or have you, frequented a political forum? Or maybe it's your mother who visits that forum? That face just looks so familiar. Ain't no biggie; I'm just curious.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

*sigh*

I hate this place. I don't know why I come here.

Please tell me why your sentiment somehow doesn't apply to the civil rights movement.

[Ben Lahnger]

I'd just like to ask why in the "progressive" state of California, it took a court case to set this right ... but in Iowa and 4 eastern seaboard states gay marriage is just as normal as any other kind of marriage. How did Iowa, a state I would expect to represent mid-western conservative values, get it right over California?

I'm just pondering that notion.

[Renatus]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I'd just like to ask why in the "progressive" state of California, it took a court case to set this right ... but in Iowa and 4 eastern seaboard states gay marriage is just as normal as any other kind of marriage. How did Iowa, a state I would expect to represent mid-western conservative values, get it right over California?

I'm just pondering that notion.

Wisconsin is also starting to steal some of California's film industry. I suspect it's all because we're trying to get revenge on California for trying to steal the Dairy State title from us (California cows are NOT happy cows) so we have teamed up with other midwestern states to steal California's industries. Stealing their values maybe just comes with the package.

[Ráskógr]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I'd just like to ask why in the "progressive" state of California, it took a court case to set this right ... but in Iowa and 4 eastern seaboard states gay marriage is just as normal as any other kind of marriage. How did Iowa, a state I would expect to represent mid-western conservative values, get it right over California?

I'm just pondering that notion.

The question has less to do with the generally progressive mind set of a state like California (which does have, by the way, a major conservative constituency) and more to do with the structure of state government. Unfortunately, it may not be over in Iowa either, as the fanatical bigots of the religious right continue to mount a campaign to force the issue onto the ballot there. It is possible Judge Walker's decision will cool their jets, as having a federal court ruling such as this on the books will make it far more difficult for any such amendment to a state constitution to remain unchallenged. The impact of Walker's decision will no doubt have far reaching effects as other states' statutes and constitutional amendments are challenged, just as California's was in this case.

There are some key elements in Vaughn Walker's ruling which are paramount to genderless marriage moving forward in other states. Here are his findings:

Walker determined a person's "fundamental rights may not be submitted to a vote."

He posits there is no historical reason for not allowing same-sex couples to marry. States have never required spouses to procreate in order to marry - "indeed, a marriage license is more than a license to have procreative sexual intercourse," he wrote.

No reliable evidence was presented that gay marriage negatively impacts society or the "institution" of marriage or children. In fact, the voter-imposed ban "makes it less likely that California children will be raised in stable households," the judge wrote.

Excluding same-sex couples from marriage harkens back to a different era when genders had distinct roles in society and marriage. "That time has passed," Walker wrote.

Judge Walker also concluded the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses of the United States Constitution had been violated when the voters of California passed the Proposition 8 ban on marriage for gays and lesbians. In his one hundred thirty page ruling, Judge Walker precisely lays out why Proposition 8 was unconstitutional. He left little, if any, room for a court going forward to nullify his decision.

The time really has passed when any group in society can pretend they are somehow superior to any other group in society. The time has come for the people of this country, as a whole, to embrace equal rights for everyone if they wish to continue calling themselves Americans and wish to continue proclaiming liberty and justice for all.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by Ráskógr

You look familiar if that's your photo in the avatar. Do you, or have you, frequented a political forum? Or maybe it's your mother who visits that forum? That face just looks so familiar. Ain't no biggie; I'm just curious.

Awe, I think I just have one of those faces. I'm not on any political forums... I have been on some pagan forums but that was a while ago...