In Oklahoma, a doctor can now lie to you

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by Saya

I do think that the anti-choice movement likes to paint women as sluts who will abort just to avoid stretch marks ...

I am not a supporter of the anti-choice (or pro-life as they would have the rhetoric go) movement, nor would I have ever chosen the word slut, but since you bring it up ... there probably has been a woman or two who aborted a fetus so she didn't have to have stretch marks. I say probably because I anticipate that this would fall in line with the broad range of expected human behavior. Unlike the anti-choice movement, I don't see that as a reason to campaign against a right that most women use with great responsibility. But I also think it is a thing that grown adults can consider and discuss without throwing insults or seeing it as a threat.

Originally Posted by Saya

... and that does make even pro choice people wonder. Honestly I used to be pro-life, and even when I changed my mind and became pro-choice I thought I would never be able to have an abortion, and I would've been quick to judge anyone who did it for reasons I didn't agree with.

But I can discuss reasons for having an abortion that I might not agree with and speculate upon people with less than noble motivations, because that is my first amendment right.

The rest of your statements have been full of examples I would not disagree with, but again you keep bringing up the easily defensible examples and I was not intending to post an attack.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I am not a supporter of the anti-choice (or pro-life as they would have the rhetoric go) movement, nor would I have ever chosen the word slut, but since you bring it up ... there probably has been a woman or two who aborted a fetus so she didn't have to have stretch marks. I say probably because I anticipate that this would fall in line with the broad range of expected human behavior. Unlike the anti-choice movement, I don't see that as a reason to campaign against a right that most women use with great responsibility. But I also think it is a thing that grown adults can consider and discuss without throwing insults or seeing it as a threat.



But I can discuss reasons for having an abortion that I might not agree with and speculate upon people with less than noble motivations, because that is my first amendment right.

The rest of your statements have been full of examples I would not disagree with, but again you keep bringing up the easily defensible examples and I was not intending to post an attack.

Its certainly your right to say that, but its also my right to call you out on it. And it wasn't all "easily defensible," since I brought up financial difficulties, which you previously said was on that "slippery slope"

And frankly, I think that accepting whether a couple can afford a child or not as a good reason for choosing an abortion is also on that slippery slope.

Using abortion irresponsibly would be having unprotected sex like crazy and aborting every single time instead of using birth control, since that would do a number on your body. Does anyone out there do that? Maybe, although it would make little sense given how birth control is a lot easier and cheaper, her doctor must interfere at one point and say something about it. Aborting because you are not able to raise a child with a disability or you cannot afford one is pretty responsible, given how many disabled children are abused by parents, teachers and caregivers or how many children suffer in poverty, and how the mother might have a chance to change her financial situation if she does abort, making life easier for her future children.

[Ben Lahnger]

When I say there is a slope, it means there is a shallow end and a deep end. So, in the example of talking about a couple aborting because money is a factor, it becomes different points on that slope depending on their income and what other things might factor into the cost of having that child. If a couple has a six figure income, then making the choice to abort because of the cost puts them on a different place on the slope than a couple that is struggling to get by.

Also, disability varies by degrees. Aborting a child who is very mildly disabled is closer to the deep end of the slope than aborting a severely deformed child.

You keep insisting on only mentioning the worst case scenarios, like if a child is very disabled or a couple is very poor. I'm just saying, human nature being what it is, there are some other possibilities. And I do believe that there are people who make those choices for other reasons.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

When I say there is a slope, it means there is a shallow end and a deep end. So, in the example of talking about a couple aborting because money is a factor, it becomes different points on that slope depending on their income and what other things might factor into the cost of having that child. If a couple has a six figure income, then making the choice to abort because of the cost puts them on a different place on the slope than a couple that is struggling to get by.

Also, disability varies by degrees. Aborting a child who is very mildly disabled is closer to the deep end of the slope than aborting a severely deformed child.

You keep insisting on only mentioning the worst case scenarios, like if a child is very disabled or a couple is very poor. I'm just saying, human nature being what it is, there are some other possibilities. And I do believe that there are people who make those choices for other reasons.

I'm thinking you don't understand the phrase "slippery slope". By saying its a slippery slope from an impoverished family aborting to a couple aborting just because they want to buy a fifth car, what you're implying is that aborting for dire financial reasons will lead to people getting abortions for shits and giggles, so aborting for good reasons will inevitably lead to horrific results. Like "We shouldn't allow gay marriage, because then people will be having sex with ducks" is a slippery slope argument.

[CptSternn]

In Europe, we get paid by the government if we have children. In Ireland, you get money every month (a few hundred euro) no matter what tax bracket you are in to support the child (although they do reduce the amount if you make over like €70,000 a year).

If the child goes to college, which is also paid for by the government, your benefits continue until they finish school.

I wonder how many potential children have been aborted because there is not a similar system like this in America?

[Saya]

[Ben Lahnger]

You know Saya, your right. My mistake was using the term "slippery slope", and I should have know better. The word slippery does mean that the decisions would lead to more people doing the same or worse and I didn't mean that. It was my mistake for using an inaccurate term. I also should have been sensitive to the emotional power of that term, since it has been used by pro-life advocates in the very divisive battle over abortion rights, and I had no intention of making a connection to that political position.

I'm just saying that there is a wide range of human behavior, and some people choose to abort for less honorable reasons. You've never denied it when I suggested that I believed a few women probably have aborted to avoid stretch marks and that I believe that a few couples have aborted because of the cost even though they make six figure incomes. I'm not saying those people making those choices will necessarily lead to more people making those choices ... just that I am certain that there are a few who behave that way.

Saying so does not in and of itself attack or weaken the right of women to choose to have an abortion any more than pointing out that some people drive drunk should be an attack or weaken the right of people to drive a car. It's just a byproduct of having cars and human nature.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

I wonder how many potential children have been aborted because there is not a similar system like this in America?

Sternn, I'm having a hard time believing any American thought that through and decided to have an abortion based on that thinking. And by the way, in America, we have Welfare and WIC and other programs, which DO pay you if you have children and have little or no income. So we do have a program like that here. I know you'll want to come back and argue the details of the programs that exist here in America (which I am not an expert on and which are really not germane to the topic at hand), but the programs do exist.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Sternn, I'm having a hard time believing any American thought that through and decided to have an abortion based on that thinking.

You don't think people abort because they can't afford to raise a child?

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by JCC

You don't think people abort because they can't afford to raise a child?

That was disingenuous and you know it. I was referring to making the decision based on comparing the policies and programs of different countries against the policies and programs of the United States. That is different than just making the decision based on money, which I've already acknowledged does happen.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

That was disingenuous and you know it. I was referring to making the decision based on comparing the policies and programs of different countries against the policies and programs of the United States. That is different than just making the decision based on money, which I've already acknowledged does happen.

Sternn wasn't implying that people think "The United States won't support me as much as a European government would. Well, time to abort my child based on that premise!" He was comparing the policies of different countries to the US because government spending on single mothers and struggling families helps to reduce the need for abortions.

[Ben Lahnger]

Fair enough.

[ape descendant]

Who owns a woman's body?

[CptSternn]

Depends on who paid her for the hour

*rim-shot*

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

In Europe, we get paid by the government if we have children. In Ireland, you get money every month (a few hundred euro) no matter what tax bracket you are in to support the child (although they do reduce the amount if you make over like €70,000 a year).

If the child goes to college, which is also paid for by the government, your benefits continue until they finish school.

I wonder how many potential children have been aborted because there is not a similar system like this in America?

I wonder how many people have kids just for the money.

[creature6]

Most of the Muslims and black people i think do have kids for the money.

[Corpsey]

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

I'm just saying that there is a wide range of human behavior, and some people choose to abort for less honorable reasons. You've never denied it when I suggested that I believed a few women probably have aborted to avoid stretch marks and that I believe that a few couples have aborted because of the cost even though they make six figure incomes. I'm not saying those people making those choices will necessarily lead to more people making those choices ... just that I am certain that there are a few who behave that way.

I can vouch for this from personal experience. One lady who I used to know through acting school claimed to have done this twice and claimed that "Girls only feel the need to use protection after a scare". Needless to say her views were off-center on most topics.

Also what can be worse is that some can claim that they will use abortion as an excuse to do stupid things while pregnant. One particular case I knew was when a girl was pregnant with her second child, set her mind on an abortion so she drank, smoked, used all the drugs under the sun and then decided to keep the child. I can only imagine the future heath problems ahead for such a child.

These being said, they aren't what I would believe to be often.

Originally Posted by Creature

Most of the Muslims and black people i think do have kids for the money.

No, you idiot. They do it so they can take over Europe with superior numbers.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by cptsternn

depends on who paid her for the hour

*rim-shot*

roflmao!!!!

[creature6]

Originally Posted by Corpsey

I can vouch for this from personal experience. One lady who I used to know through acting school claimed to have done this twice and claimed that "Girls only feel the need to use protection after a scare". Needless to say her views were off-center on most topics.

Also what can be worse is that some can claim that they will use abortion as an excuse to do stupid things while pregnant. One particular case I knew was when a girl was pregnant with her second child, set her mind on an abortion so she drank, smoked, used all the drugs under the sun and then decided to keep the child. I can only imagine the future heath problems ahead for such a child.

These being said, they aren't what I would believe to be often.


No, you idiot. They do it so they can take over Europe with superior numbers.

No,you shit head cunt they don't.
They are not intelligent enough to attempt in doing so.
Give it a rest moron .

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by creature6

No ... shit ... cunt not intelligent enough to attempt in doing so.

shutuptroll!shutuptroll!shutuptroll!shutuptroll!

Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger

Shut up, troll!

[Corpsey]

Bring back the reccomendation system! Ben deserves a dozen or so +'s.

[RedDollShoes]

I don't tell men what to do with their cock-and-balls. Don't tell me what to do with my vagina and uterus. I'm so glad abortion is safe and legal and available where I live IF I should ever need one. I take birth control and plan on being permanently sterilized as soon as I can. But even permanent sterilizations aren't 100% reliable. But I really shouldn't have to explain to anyone that I take birth control and that I'm a responsible person. It's my business and my choice, as every woman's body is her own business.

77% of anti-choice activists are men. 100% of them will never be pregnant.

[Ben Lahnger]

Originally Posted by RedDollShoes

I don't tell men what to do with their cock-and-balls.

Actually, if you're honest, you'll admit you probably do from time to time. Rightly so, I might add.

[RedDollShoes]

LOL If you mean during sex, it's only so that they don't put it in the wrong hole or bruise my cervix.

[ape descendant]

Heh heh... cock-and-balls..