Right to refuse medical treatment

[x-deviant-x]

I apologize in advance if it seems I'm regurgitating any old threads, but this issue has been weighing heavily on my mind over the last two days, and I felt the need for some input, opinions, etc. Also, I apologize if this is posted in the wrong forum. Not sure if it should go here or in General. At any rate...

I've spent the majority of the last two days in the E.R. with my boyfriend who is/was suffering from an appendicitis.

The topic of my being in his situation came up, again, and once again, I told him what I always tell him, that I never want to undergo any form of invasive medical treatment. It's against my personal beliefs. I've told my family this many times as well. It doesn't matter the severity of the situation, whether it is life-threatening or not. If it requires anything more than a pain pill or antibiotic, I don't want it. But I don't know how far my rights go on this issue, so I'm wondering if anyone here can help shed some light on it, either by legal knowledge (obviously pertaining to the U.S.), or personal experience - self, family, friends, etc. Does anyone know what is required? Do I need to have legal papers drawn up? I am an organ donor, which I'm seriously contemplating changing, however I don't really care what happens once I'm dead, and if some part of me can help someone else live more comfortably, I don't mind. As long as I'm dead first, of course.

Thoughts?

[Alarica]

Would that be considered under the same ruling for refusing blood transfusions?

That's a huge thing do decide on though, especially if you wouldnt consider the smallest procedure for something like appencicitis. Any reason why you would refuse, just out of curiosity?

[Drake Dun]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

...I never want to undergo any form of invasive medical treatment. It's against my personal beliefs... so I'm wondering if anyone here can help shed some light on it, either by legal knowledge...

Those are some pretty idiotic beliefs you have there, but if you really have that little respect for yourself and the people who care about you, yes. As a basic rule, you have that right. The exact details depend upon your jurisdiction.

Do I need to have legal papers drawn up?

Yes. If you get into a situation where you're unable to express your wishes (for example, because you're unconcious), you run the risk of some person who is not addled with religious delusions doing the sane thing and saving you from yourself. Wouldn't want that now, would we? There are a variety of relevant documents... Do Not Resuscitates, Powers of Attorney, etc. Again, the jursidiction you live in matters.

I suppose if you let me know where you are and whether or not you're a minor (which could make a difference), I would be willing to do some homework on it, but what I say is not legal advice. If you're serious about this, you'll want to talk to an attorney or professional involved in that aspect of health care at some point.

Anyway, your invisible friend probably wouldn't approve of you listening to my advice. Hear no evil and all that.

[Alarica]

Refusing any surgical procedure to save your life is not much different than suicide. Only instead of being a selfish act you do alone, you are asking medical professionals sworn to preserve life, to let you die, without good medical reason (such as being terminally ill with cancer).

[PortraitOfSanity]

Hey deviant, long time no see.

As far as I know, you can refuse any treatment except when your immediate health is in jeopardy. This would be like having a bullet removed in the ER or something similar. First off, they're probably not going to wait around for legal paperwork to decide whether or not to operate on you, and even if you say something, they're likely to ignore it because they'll assume you're in shock and not thinking reasonably.

You can refuse any long-term treatment however, such as chemo, and people refuse stuff like that all the time, but make sure you have the paperwork drawn up with a lawyer, along with plans with someone to notify the hospital of your wishes and get them the paperwork.

[x-deviant-x]

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

Those are some pretty idiotic beliefs you have there, but if you really have that little respect for yourself and the people who care about you, yes. As a basic rule, you have that right. The exact details depend upon your jurisdiction.

I have a lot of respect for myself, which is exactly why I'm pursuing this, and anyone who claims to care about me should respect this.

I live in Florida. Terry Schiavo country...
Orange county, to be more precise.

What, exactly, is idiotic about it, may I ask?

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

Yes. If you get into a situation where you're unable to express your wishes (for example, because you're unconscious), you run the risk of some person who is not addled with religious delusions doing the sane thing and saving you from yourself. Wouldn't want that now, would we?

I'm not addled with religious delusions. I'm against invasive or intensive medical practice on my body, for any reason. It is the ultimate invasion of privacy, as far as I'm concerned, and has nothing to do with religion. There is a huge difference between personal and religious beliefs.

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

There are a variety of relevant documents... Do Not Resuscitates, Powers of Attorney, etc. Again, the jurisdiction you live in matters.

I suppose if you let me know where you are and whether or not you're a minor (which could make a difference), I would be willing to do some homework on it, but what I say is not legal advice.

I understand that. I'm 34.

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

If you're serious about this, you'll want to talk to an attorney or professional involved in that aspect of health care at some point.

Yes, I'm looking into this as well. Its difficult getting legal advice from attorneys when you have limited to no funds for consultation fees. So I'm left to do research on my own until I can afford consultation.

I've been reading about living wills. So far from what I understand, you can write it as you wish, as long as it is witnessed by 2 people, at least one of which can't be a spouse or blood relative. I have to be sure of the specifics in wording. Likely, a legal writer would be the best source for this, I'm guessing.

I was reading something this morning that said any doctor that performs surgery against a patient's consent is no different than him attacking you with a knife, and they can be charged with assault. I don't know how valid that is either at this point though.

Originally Posted by Drake Dun

Anyway, your invisible friend probably wouldn't approve of you listening to my advice. Hear no evil and all that.

I don't have any "invisible friends", voices, etc. This has nothing to do with any religious beliefs. I'm an extremely private and modest person. I've been called an idiot for my beliefs on this numerous times, so it doesn't really phase me anymore, unless it's coming from someone like my boyfriend, who should have more respect for me and my personal choices than that. I respected his by doing everything I could possibly do to get him treated as quickly as possible, and was at his side every minute I could be until his surgery, and immediately thereafter. I would expect him to be at my side, should the situation be reversed, and have enough respect for me to honor my decisions.

I've only ever had to refuse treatment once, when I was 19 and had dislocated my ankle. I dealt with the barrage of insults from my family and supposed friends, being called a "fucking idiot" and being told I was acting childish, etc, from everyone around me. The last time I was an actual patient was when I was 17, strapped to a board in an E.R. for 12 hours after a car accident. I wasn't able to get up and walk out then, or I would have.

[Tam Li Hua]

It sounds like you're just plain scared of doctors. Are you prepared to die a long and painful death? Because that sounds like what you're going for.

Don't get me wrong; having surgery isn't fun for anyone. But why choose pain and possibly death if you can choose -not- to be in pain and live a lot longer? What happened to make you so afraid of doctors?

Edit: I'm curious about something. If the doctors hadn't operated on you after your accident, would you be dead right now? Do you regret that you didn't die then/weren't horribly disfigured for the rest of your life?

[Tam Li Hua]

On a completely different note, I find it ironic that you chose Dexter, the vigilante, methodical serial killer/Miami police blood splatter expert, as your icon. Very interesting choice indeed.

[x-deviant-x]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Hey deviant, long time no see.

Hi there. I've been horribly swamped with classes the last few months, so i haven't had much time to post or even read much of anything, beyond the occasional.

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

You can refuse any long-term treatment however, such as chemo, and people refuse stuff like that all the time, but make sure you have the paperwork drawn up with a lawyer, along with plans with someone to notify the hospital of your wishes and get them the paperwork.

My grandmother did this, a few months before she passed away. She had stomach cancer, and had already been through one bout of chemo. It didn't really have any negative side effects, like it does with many, but it didn't help her either, so she refused it.

My other grandmother, however, is still lying in a hospital bed, where she's been for the last 10 years or so, mostly delirious to her surroundings or anyone around her. She watches tv when she's conscious. She barely even recognizes my dad anymore, and still believes my grandfather is there in the room with her, though he's been dead for 5 years. What is the point of this existence, other than to appease the selfishness of everyone around her that wants to keep her alive, and keep pumping money into a corrupt medical system that doesn't give a fuck about the patient, just the size of the check.

.

[Tam Li Hua]

This is just a wild guess, but could it be the cancer that's making her like that rather than the chemo? Or even just plain old alzheimer's?

Besides that, there's a -world- of difference between having an appendix or gall bladder taken out, and having to get chemo. I don't even see how you can relate the two.

[Alarica]

So essentially you're just a prude and dont want anyone looking at you or touching you, to make you well and ease long term suffering from anything? You are being unbelievably childish. Yeah, I can absolutely see how its better to die in agony from appendicitis than to have it removed and make a fast recovery, and live pain free for possibly the rest of your life.

I can completely understand people with cancer who have had failed treatment, wanting to die. I appreciate that. I can also understand people with MS or motor neurone disease wanting the right to die too. But if you were THAT determined to die, you would be seeing a lawyer for advice right now.

[AngelikDemonik]

As a nurse, yes, you have the right to refuse any type of medical treatment out there and if you don't want it, don't let it happen to you.

Oh yeah, also, at your young age, you're just too fucking stupid to live, then. If you were 85 years old and did not want open heart surgery--I'd agree with you one hundred percent. But at your age? You're just being fucking stupid. Please don't clog up our hospital systems if you're ever in a car accident or if someone severs your carotid...go die alone in an alley.

[Tam Li Hua]

That's pretty harsh, Angelik.

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

That's pretty harsh, Angelik.

It's the truth, Tam. You have no idea how disgusted I get with non-compliant patients. People come to hospitals for our help--If they don't want it, then don't waste time that could be spent on helping the patients that really need it and go suffer at home. It is so depressing to see someone refuse a treatment that could save their life.

If she wanted to refuse exploratory surgery--Yeah, I really couldn't blame her. Or if she had lung cancer which already spread to her lymph nodes and chemo and radiation would only give her a silver of a survival and she refused I couldn't blame her...But for someone at her age to say that "if it's not an antibiotic or pain pill, I don't want it"...is just plain stupid.

[Tam Li Hua]

Ah gotcha; I can see how that would be frustrating.

My question is, why do they come to the hospital if they aren't going to accept treatment? [Notwithstanding those kinds who are carried in by loved ones.]

[AngelikDemonik]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ah gotcha; I can see how that would be frustrating.

My question is, why do they come to the hospital if they aren't going to accept treatment? [Notwithstanding those kinds who are carried in by loved ones.]

I wish I had an answer for you. Some of them don't like the way the medication makes them feel, some of them don't like their treatment plans because it requires effort on their part, some people are deathly afraid of needles...The list could go on...

[x-deviant-x]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

It sounds like you're just plain scared of doctors.

No, I just don't trust them. I have no problem with needles or blades of any kind.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Are you prepared to die a long and painful death? Because that sounds like what you're going for.

There are plenty of ways to alleviate pain and discomfort while nature takes its course, and if it reached a point that medication no longer relieved the pain, I'd end it myself. Hoping, of course, that I'm still physically capable of it. While I'm not too partial to the idea of suicide, I'm not afraid of death either, and wouldn't have too much of a problem taking those necessary final steps.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Don't get me wrong; having surgery isn't fun for anyone. But why choose pain and possibly death if you can choose -not- to be in pain and live a lot longer? What happened to make you so afraid of doctors?

I don't share the obsession people have with "living a lot longer". I've never really understood that desire. People act as though life is a party that should never end. There are plenty of things I would like to do, and I'm very content with keeping myself occupied while I wait. I have no intention of seeking a means to an end, either, though I completely understand it in other people. However, I'm not going to fight death, or try to prevent it when it comes knocking, and I want to be sure that no one else tries making that decision for me. Ethically speaking, it is no one elses decision to make but mine.

Further, I don't have children, and unless I actually choose to have one, I never will. So that is one factor I don't have to work into this equation, as would the majority of others. If I did have kids, then I'd have a responsibility to them to keep myself alive in a medical situation, at least until they were adults.

Still, there are other factors I have to consider, mostly debts. I would never want to leave any of my family members with my debts (to include over $150K in tuition, for example). So I have to take into account life insurance, and how it would pay out. I'm sure there are legal ramifications regarding that. I have a feeling a life insurance policy would try to deny a claim when they discover medical treatment was refused. Maybe not. Another possible solution is to start some sort of trust that would pay off any debts I might have at the time, or at least the majority of them. Of course I dont have the funds to do anything like that right now, so it is a delima.

again, it's not about fear, or a lack of respect for my own life. I try not to take chances that would result in any bodily injury. I get accused of not "living" my life for doing this as well. It's a double-edged sword, it seems. But there are a lot of responsibilities and things you have to accept when making a decision like this. It's not an easy issue to sort out, and the possible scenarios are as abundant as there are people in the world.

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Edit: I'm curious about something. If the doctors hadn't operated on you after your accident, would you be dead right now? Do you regret that you didn't die then/weren't horribly disfigured for the rest of your life?

There was no operation involved when I was in that car accident. I had a moderate concussion and a lot of lacerations to the left side of my head from the broken windshield. I was kept immobile due to the concussion. And no, I'm not disfigured from it either. Other than a few barely noticeable scars on the side of my head, there's no sign of it ever happening.

As for Dexter, he's one of my favorite characters. Unfortunately he's only fiction.

.

[x-deviant-x]

Originally Posted by Tam Li Hua

Ah gotcha; I can see how that would be frustrating.

My question is, why do they come to the hospital if they aren't going to accept treatment? [Notwithstanding those kinds who are carried in by loved ones.]

I have never once walked into a hospital or walk-in clinic seeking treatment for anything on my own, and I never would, unless it was my absolute last option, and only then would it be for pain relief.

[Albert Mond]

I think it's a load of shit that if you get some infection that could be deadly, but could also be easily treated by trained Doctors, your boyfriend will have to just watch you die. I mean, honestly. I can understand suicide, but when you don't want to die, but you refuse medical treatment... well FUCK.

[AngelikDemonik]

I can understand not wanting to live forever or not wanting a breathing tube, but what are you going to do if your appendix bursts a year from now? Die a VERY painful death? You're gonna need a little more than amoxil and a motrin to fix that...

[jack_the_knife]

You're going to need a lot of painkiller to stop an inflamed appendix hurting. When I had an appendectomy, when I was admitted to the hospital, the whole right side of my abdomen hurt, including my nuts.

[Alarica]

Originally Posted by AngelikDemonik

some people are deathly afraid of needles

I was aswell, for a long time. I also used to get into a hell of a state about blood tests and I still do about having an IV put in, but I hate them so much I darent move. The faster it's in the better!

My dad is like you, deviant. He refuses to ever take painkillers though too, yet expects everyone to tollerate his shitty offhandedness when he's in pain. He recently had a detatched retina, and considering his job and love of it, surgery was his only option, yet he made my mums and the specialists time a nightmare, whining like a bitch before anything was done. Yet his sight has been saved. My mum had a choice between being blind or having her lenses replaced. She had the surgery, because without it she wouldn't be able to work.

If you suffered the same, are you saying you would rather be a selfish cunt, go blind and be a burden on everyone else, than have a simple procedure that enables you to continue you're life as you are accustomed to it?

[x-deviant-x]

Originally Posted by AngelikDemonik

As a nurse, yes, you have the right to refuse any type of medical treatment out there and if you don't want it, don't let it happen to you.

Oh yeah, also, at your young age, you're just too fucking stupid to live, then. If you were 85 years old and did not want open heart surgery--I'd agree with you one hundred percent. But at your age? You're just being fucking stupid. Please don't clog up our hospital systems if you're ever in a car accident or if someone severs your carotid...go die alone in an alley.

I'm glad that, as a nurse, you are able to provide your professional opinion on a an issue like this, with such a professional air in your choice of wording. This is the sort of attitude that disgusts me whenever I speak to anyone in the "medical profession." I wonder, do they actually train you to speak to people this way, or is it a learned skill?

I will never voluntarily allow myself to become your hunk of flesh to experiment on, as though I'm an object instead of an individual.

There are plenty of other options outside of the hospital environment for alternative treatment, for just about any issue or ailment, that do not require surgery. Granted, some are not so great, while others provide more benefit and faster recovery. It just depends on the situation. I'm not alone in my beliefs, I've just never taken the time to really pursue it.

This ordeal with my boyfriend has caused me to seriously evaluate my own feelings and opinions on the issue. I hate the fact that he was sprawled on a table like beef, naked to the world while they cut him open and cut something out of him. I have very deep rooted issues with this, that I can't let go of, and I refuse to allow it to happen to me. Yes I'm pissed at him, and for some reason I feel betrayed, because he allowed them to do this to him, and didn't even object. More importantly, he allowed himself to require this emergency treatment. It has damaged our relationship, but at the same time, I know that he didn't have many choices in the matter, and he doesn't share the same belief. I have not said one word to him about it, or tried to judge him or talk him out of anything. I have no legal right to make any decision for him, nor would I even if he asked me to. When he called me at school on Wednesday and told me he was being sent to the emergency room for a possible appendicitis, I left class and went straight there. I've done everything I could do to make him as comfortable as possible and waited with him for word from the doctor, never once saying anything in objection or opinion to him or anyone that was treating him. He's home now, resting on the couch. I'm trying to get the sheets changed and bedroom cleaned so he has a comfortable bed to sleep in. I'll be sleeping on the couch for the next several days, to his objection.

I can't help how I feel. I've dealt with this my entire life, and I've always thought that as I got older, the concept wouldn't be as big a deal for me, but that's not been the case. In fact, its been the reverse, as I've gotten older, I'm even more against it now than I used to be. I'm just not very educated on all of it, and I really need to start researching alternatives on a serious level.

I came here and raised this subject because, although I don't agree with a lot of people's opinions on this board, there's still a lot of people here with knowledge on several levels that I could benefit from, should they want to share. I didn't bring it up to be ridiculed or insulted for my beliefs, though I know that comes along with it, especially on this forum.

.

[Albert Mond]

Originally Posted by x-deviant-x

I will never voluntarily allow myself to become your hunk of flesh to experiment on, as though I'm an object instead of an individual.

Can you not be both?
...And isn't that essentially the same logic with which one would conclude that by living in an established state, one becomes an object?
I mean, it's not like the police, mailmen, and firefighters all really want to know you.

[Alarica]

Deviant, it's bollocks that you want advice. If you have made your mind up, and made this decision years ago, then you would have gone to see a lawyer by now. You just want someone to approve of your childish idea. If you want to die, there are plenty of ways to do it that wont involve you putting that pressure on professionals who swore to preserve life.