|
|
|
Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right."
-H.L. Menken |
06-11-2005, 12:15 PM
|
#1
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
Ministry Of Thought
Pentagon Funds Diplomacy Effort
Contracts Aim to Improve Foreign Opinion of United States
By Renae Merle
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 11, 2005; Page D01
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...061001910.html
The Pentagon awarded three contracts this week, potentially worth up to $300 million over five years, to companies it hopes will inject more creativity into its psychological operations efforts to improve foreign public opinion about the United States, particularly the military.
...Some previous Defense Department efforts in the field have been controversial. In 2002, the Pentagon abandoned its Office of Strategic Influence after reports surfaced, which the Pentagon denied, that it would disseminate inaccurate information to foreign media.
After other agencies were criticized for hiring journalists to promote their policies, the Pentagon asked its inspector general to review its use of Fairfax-based Anteon International Corp. to run Web sites aimed at audiences in the Balkans and North Africa. The Web sites, known as the Southeast European Times and Magharebia, include articles from journalists paid by the Pentagon through the company, as well as articles translated from U.S. newspapers. That review is ongoing.
So, how many governments spend millions a month on propoganda? Also, how many intentionally hire reporters to report fake news, made up on a sound stage, to influence people in other countries to adopt their way of thinking?
Why is it that the people they claim to be fighting don't have to make such progogand videos, and yet their fighters are willing to die for their cause? On the other end, the us government fighting this 'war on terror' has to pay extra money, offer free shit, and issue a stop loss program to keep its soldiers on the battlefield?
Just curious...
|
|
|
06-11-2005, 01:01 PM
|
#2
|
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I own Pitseleh!!
Posts: 3,747
|
Quote:
Why is it that the people they claim to be fighting don't have to make such progogand videos, and yet their fighters are willing to die for their cause?
|
Because they're religeous fanatics.
|
|
|
06-11-2005, 03:01 PM
|
#3
|
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 517
|
Re: Ministry Of Thought
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Why is it that the people they claim to be fighting don't have to make such progogand videos
|
Wow. WOW. That is such an ignorant thing to say.
Don't have to disseminate propaganda? I've watched some of the videos that you believe do not exist. They're sickening.
I do not care to comment on any other part of that article. Please do not read any more into my response than what I have written.
|
|
|
06-11-2005, 06:20 PM
|
#4
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful U.S. of A.
Posts: 1,241
|
Hmmm, well let me put your curiosity to rest by saying that groups such as al-Qaeda do indeed put out propaganda videos. Let's also point out that Ayman al-Zawahiri and Bin Laden are master puppetiers. If you think al-Qaeda is waging a religious war, that's a laugh. Their real war is political, not religious.
Read publications by al-Zawahiri (I suggest 'Knights Under the Prophet's Banner'). You'll find that his biggest beef with the US is over the fact that they've taken major steps to ensure a fundamentalist regime will never hold power in Egypt and other places, not the poor innocent muslim casualties (that these guys/al-Qaeda actually kill all the time, intentionally by the way) in other wars. Hell, just look at that insurgent that was recovered after his truck blew up. He said that his "handlers" lied and decieved him in what he was doing. Most of these poor fools are brainwashed.
Look at Chechnya. Most of the "black widows" sent into Russia are brainwashed on drugs or manipulated based on personal beliefs. Really, you don't have to look far to see alot of muslim terror groups are politically motivated, not religiously. That's, of course, when you pull back the veil of deceit that you apparently swear by. Seriously, read into the publications and teachings these guys truely abide by. Watch the propaganda videos that al-Qaeda and other major terror groups spend money on and put out there.
__________________
"[Brian Blair] was a punk. I can break his fucking back - break his back and make him humble and then fuck his ass ... Suplex him, put him in a camel clutch, break his back, and fuck his ass - make him humble. Teach him to respect the Iron Sheik. And I didn't do it, because for the God and Jesus, and Mr. McMahon." -Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik)
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 06:09 PM
|
#5
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
Your seriously suggesting these people watched a video or read a pamlet and now they are so brainwashed they are willing to die to prove their loyalty to the message on that pamlet or video?
And by that also saying that growing up in a war zone, watching their families get killed, die of starvation, be imprisioned without cause, and generally abused on a daily basis - all that has nothing to do with the people they are?
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 06:46 PM
|
#6
|
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: 42.5
Posts: 1,073
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Your seriously suggesting these people watched a video or read a pamlet and now they are so brainwashed they are willing to die to prove their loyalty to the message on that pamlet or video?
And by that also saying that growing up in a war zone, watching their families get killed, die of starvation, be imprisioned without cause, and generally abused on a daily basis - all that has nothing to do with the people they are?
|
Sternn - You're a fucking dumbass.
__________________
"I'm right"
"No - it's more like - wow, isn't enlightenment great?" - Doug Henning
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 08:23 PM
|
#7
|
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Your seriously suggesting these people watched a video or read a pamlet and now they are so brainwashed they are willing to die to prove their loyalty to the message on that pamlet or video?
|
You started this thread comparing the U.S. to Big Brother for trying to change its image abroad with videos and pamphlets. That analogy does not hold if you believe those things have minimal impact.
And if you had ever watched some of the propagandic videos, you would understand their potential power. How can you be so dismissive of something that you've never seen? That you didn't even know existed before today?
I am not saying that a video can completely change someone's opinion and make them go out and blow themselves and/or other people up-there has to be some initial receptivity to the ideas contained within the propaganda. But it can get someone riled up enough to make the switch between being upset about something and killing people over it.)
Quote:
And by that also saying that growing up in a war zone, watching their families get killed, die of starvation, be imprisioned without cause, and generally abused on a daily basis - all that has nothing to do with the people they are?
|
Neither Binkie nor I said anything to that effect, although I would like to know which country/countries/people you're talking about here.
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 08:28 PM
|
#8
|
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,793
|
__________________
"How many times can I say I'm not sorry? And how many ways can I show I don't care?" - Type O Negative
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 08:29 PM
|
#9
|
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,793
|
__________________
"How many times can I say I'm not sorry? And how many ways can I show I don't care?" - Type O Negative
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 08:38 PM
|
#10
|
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,793
|
oh, and tstone - i'd click on a link if it would enlarge my penis. hell, i'd click on it a thousand times and then wield my monster cock like the thousand year old tree trunk i believe it to be.
yee-haw!
__________________
"How many times can I say I'm not sorry? And how many ways can I show I don't care?" - Type O Negative
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 08:39 PM
|
#11
|
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,793
|
__________________
"How many times can I say I'm not sorry? And how many ways can I show I don't care?" - Type O Negative
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 08:46 PM
|
#12
|
Join Date: Jul 2004
Posts: 3,793
|
__________________
"How many times can I say I'm not sorry? And how many ways can I show I don't care?" - Type O Negative
|
|
|
06-12-2005, 10:17 PM
|
#13
|
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 74
|
Most gov.'s use propaganda.
Granted, had we not elected the Village Idiot as Cheif we might not need to spend quite so much, but everybody's doing it. Just look at tourism...
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 03:54 AM
|
#14
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
First, I don't believe propoganda works, which has nothing to do with this thread. I don't think it really works at all, and the us trying to use it as a weapon is a silly idea. The fact they would need to attempt such a futile act idea shows how desperate they are.
Second, gran - any country in the middle east and most of africa pretty much falls into this category.
And TS - this is not about just the want or the idea of physically obtaining anything. These people are willing to die so that the next generation might be able to be free. This is not selfish self gratification. These people are dedicated long before they ever see a video.
Years of abuse at the hands of people who are being paid off by the us leads them into their life choices very young and very quick.
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 11:22 AM
|
#15
|
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
First, I don't believe propoganda works, which has nothing to do with this thread.
|
It has everything to do with this thread. You titled it "Ministry of Thought," so I'll start with that. Most of Big Brother's power was derived from its total use of propaganda. Did you even read 1984? It doesn't seem like it. It is simply impossible to reconcile your constant accusations of America being Big Brother with a belief that propaganda has no effect. The Ministry of Thought wouldn't be such a terrifying part of 1984 if propaganda did not fucking work.
It is also impossible to reconcile your view of propaganda with history. Judging from your comment in another thread that there's no need to study Soviet Russia because present-day America is worse, it seems pretty clear that you also have not studied Nazi Germany, Mussolini's Italy, etc. How in the world do you think Hitler came to and kept power? You think when Jews were taken to concentration camps, Hitler told Germany and the world the truth about what was happening and logically explained the reasoning behind it? And who do you think controlled all the media in Soviet Russia? The government. Why? Duh. Did it work? For a long time, yes.
Quote:
These people are willing to die so that the next generation might be able to be free. This is not selfish self gratification. These people are dedicated long before they ever see a video.
|
Don't try and pass yourself off as even marginally knowledgeable on this topic, because it was only two days ago that you did not know that these videos existed. You clearly have a very busy, influential life-you don't have the time in two days to do the research that would back up your statement.
This is the last time I'm going to respond to you, unless I can sufficiently shut down your argument without saying anything new, only quoting you and/or other people. I've wasted so much time on you already.
Propaganda doesn't work... Good lord.
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 05:37 PM
|
#16
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
Gran - so some extent you are right - a sustained propaganda campaign, properly funded, state controlled, with adequate resources could be used to manipulate a society.
However, a small contengent of a few thousand with limited resources and less than average access to media outlets is not going to be able to do more than print out a few brochures, make a few home videos, and print a few posters. That kind of propaganda is not going to make anyone go kill for them.
But your right, bush, like hitler, has the resources to brainwash your society.
Slán
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 06:18 PM
|
#17
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful U.S. of A.
Posts: 1,241
|
Actually, al-Qaeda's propaganda seems to be alot more effective, as they decieve muslims into thinking they're fighting a holy war. Couse, I don't have to explain to someone like you, Sternn, that a Muslim is very dedicated to his/her faith. This is why we've seen al-Qaeda grow so much in the past few years. Capture a terrorist and ask him why he's fighting America and he'll say silly statements that even you've bought into ( *cough* propaganda puppet *cough*) about this being a religious war against Islam.
Hell, most mosques in Saudi Arabia and in Pakistan will use propaganda to get these fighters wanting to fight America. Play off the faith of an extremist and you're ready to go. Oh, and by the way, you've been subjected to a massive amount of propaganda that you'll never realize. You see, British Psy-Ops was operating in Northern Ireland for a while, and I wouldn't be surprised if a clandestine operation was still being run in the media.
al-Qaeda's got the hang of this, how come you haven't caught on? Your propaganda here at Gothic.net seems to be the only one that fails horribly.
__________________
"[Brian Blair] was a punk. I can break his fucking back - break his back and make him humble and then fuck his ass ... Suplex him, put him in a camel clutch, break his back, and fuck his ass - make him humble. Teach him to respect the Iron Sheik. And I didn't do it, because for the God and Jesus, and Mr. McMahon." -Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik)
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 06:46 PM
|
#18
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
See, once again why you are so wrong.
It is a holy war against Islam. I explained this before, but look at it this way - the 'liberation' that is being brought to them is a direct conflict with their religion.
I mean, their laws forbidding women to vote, walk around without a burka, etc. were all laws based on Islam. To institute a government and tell them that it will not follow the laws of Islam, but infact of a form of government formed by people who believe in another god. Also to institute laws based on a religion that has direct conflicts as well.
Also, doing things like linking the african aid promised last week to all faith based initiives so it can only be delivered by church affiliated groups, well sends out the message your trying to colonise the area with religion rather than politics.
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 08:11 PM
|
#19
|
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 517
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
However, a small contengent of a few thousand with limited resources and less than average access to media outlets is not going to be able to do more than print out a few brochures, make a few home videos, and print a few posters. That kind of propaganda is not going to make anyone go kill for them.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by I
And if you had ever watched some of the propagandic videos, you would understand their potential power. How can you be so dismissive of something that you've never seen? That you didn't even know existed before today?
I am not saying that a video can completely change someone's opinion and make them go out and blow themselves and/or other people up-there has to be some initial receptivity to the ideas contained within the propaganda. But it can get someone riled up enough to make the switch between being upset about something and killing people over it.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
But your right, bush, like hitler, has the resources to brainwash your society.
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn also
I don't believe propoganda works, which has nothing to do with this thread. I don't think it really works at all, and the us trying to use it as a weapon is a silly idea. The fact they would need to attempt such a futile act idea shows how desperate they are.
|
(I know I said I wouldn't respond any more, but I'm about to amend that statement.)
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 08:50 PM
|
#20
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful U.S. of A.
Posts: 1,241
|
Ouch. Been shooting yourself in the foot again?
Anyways, I don't know if you realize this, but islamic nations such as Saudi Arabia are the ones who have the most human rights abuses. They're on the ball now-a-days trying to implement reforms to correct that themselves. So, are you the only one against human rights? Shouldn't be an individual's choice whether or not they practice their religion? It should be the state's?
I think I already spent a good deal of time arguing you over this. I believe it ended in you simply amending some such thing Mael said and completely dropping the subject.
I'll just repeat myself again though for the hell of it. Iraq's population isn't all muslim. There are people of other religions, as it's a free country, not an Islamic state. It never was, actually. If women are walking around with out their veils, it's by choice, not because the US is demanding that they not wear them. A bunch of young girls in Afghanistan are thrilled with their freedoms.
I'll liken it to something of relevance on this site by saying that women having the choice to walk about in whatever they want is equivelant to Goths being allowed to dress in black clothing with skulls and tomb stone prints all they want without that needing to be ceased because it's not traditional. Are you saying you're all against basic human freedoms? You want Iraq to be a "Police State?"
__________________
"[Brian Blair] was a punk. I can break his fucking back - break his back and make him humble and then fuck his ass ... Suplex him, put him in a camel clutch, break his back, and fuck his ass - make him humble. Teach him to respect the Iron Sheik. And I didn't do it, because for the God and Jesus, and Mr. McMahon." -Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik)
|
|
|
06-13-2005, 09:00 PM
|
#21
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,311
|
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
I'll just repeat myself again though for the hell of it. Iraq's population isn't all muslim. There are people of other religions, as it's a free country, not an Islamic state. It never was, actually. If women are walking around with out their veils, it's by choice, not because the US is demanding that they not wear them. A bunch of young girls in Afghanistan are thrilled with their freedoms.
|
Thanks Binkie, for a second there i thought i was horribly wrong ( again ) for i believed with all my heart that Iraq is one of the most secular Middle Eeastern nations. Btw, Tariq Aziz is a Chaldean Catholic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
You want Iraq to be a "Police State?"
|
8)
|
|
|
06-14-2005, 10:58 AM
|
#22
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
I know! I mean, with the rosey picture these people keep posting, you would think it's all rainbows and lollipops right there now! Who would have even thought a war was going on? I mean, obviously there is no war because you can't see it happening here.
Watching you justify the war and saying its not against muslims is just as convinving as David Duke, former KKK Grand Wizard and current Republican in the states still holding an office somewhere last time I checked (and he came to Richmond to support 'White Rights' and held a confederate flag march).
When he gave his 'I was in the KKK for all the good reasons, not to hate black people' is the same as bush saying 'I did all this for good reasons, not because I hate muslims'. No one is buying it, except a few rich white people who don't know any muslims and only talk to other rich white people.
If you want truth, then go out and ask people outside your bubble.
|
|
|
06-14-2005, 11:06 AM
|
#23
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful U.S. of A.
Posts: 1,241
|
Alright, that was a quaint attempt to draw attention away from the actual topic of discussion and from answering my question. I can understand why you're doing that though, cause you know the answer makes you look not only like a hypocrite but makes your "US is Big Brother" arguements even more ludicrous.
But I'll try this again: Do you think Iraq should be a "Police State" where women are not allowed to walk around unveiled? Is that what you support since you've taken a stance against basic human freedoms?
__________________
"[Brian Blair] was a punk. I can break his fucking back - break his back and make him humble and then fuck his ass ... Suplex him, put him in a camel clutch, break his back, and fuck his ass - make him humble. Teach him to respect the Iron Sheik. And I didn't do it, because for the God and Jesus, and Mr. McMahon." -Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik)
|
|
|
06-14-2005, 11:25 AM
|
#24
|
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
|
When have I ever taken a stand against freedoms? My country doesn't run todays new gulag. My country doesn't torture innocent people. My country hasn't executed over 12,000 innocent men women and children.
Tell me, you support all that but say I am against freedoms? The blood of those innocents killed is on your hands, not mine. You support that war, you support those deaths.
Tell me how restricted is the freedoms of those who are killed? Thats the ultimate deprevation of freedom if you ask me. Next followed closely by handicap for life, which 20,000+ are now thanks to you. So you tell me how you justify depriving all those people of their freedom.
I say let them decide what they want. Who are you to send your forces half way around the world to execute innocent people so that you can then tell them how they should conduct their lives. All because you feel your way of life is better?
Explain how thats not taking away their freedom?
|
|
|
06-14-2005, 12:36 PM
|
#25
|
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: The Beautiful U.S. of A.
Posts: 1,241
|
Actually, yeah, the UK tortures innocent people and kills innocent Iraqis. So it looks like the blood is on your hands too, Sternn. You keep forgetting that, don't you? You moved to an empire that collaborated with the Iraq war and is a major player in it.
Actually, the Iraq war didn't inflict all that many casualties. It wasn't until the insurgency that massive casualties began to rise (most of which are attributed to the terrorists, by the way), simply because terrorists, just like the IRA, would embed themselves within crowds of innocent people (or as some IRA and terrorist members call 'em, "human shields") in order to draw fire onto them so they'd die. This happens all the time in Northern Ireland where the IRA kills people. By your standards, I guess they hate freedom so much that's why they're trying to restrict it.
But casualties of war happen. If you can cite a war where they haven't, please do share. Happened in Western Germany when we came in after it had fallen in WWII. Are you saying that Germany is not a free county now? Casualties do not dictate or describe freedoms that the Iraqi people have right now, which are now being put in place by the Iraqis themselves. They've chosen freedom over your hopes and desires (apparent by the voter turn-out). Some people can't apparently deal with that though, and they pickup guns and head into Iraq from an entirely different country to show that. These foreign fighters are upset over political matters, not religious.
But back to what we were talking about before; you said that allowing women in Iraq the choice of walking around bearing their faces was an attack against the muslim religion and was wrong. Welp, Iraq isn't an islamic state, so what's wrong with it again? That they're walking around with liberties and freedoms? What was right then? The police state that Saudi Arabia used to be and still mostly is? This is what you're obviously supporting if you say that extending freedom to the middle east is wrong, therefore you are against freedom and support "Police States." If you don't, then surely you'll have to admit that bringing freedoms and liberties to the Iraqi people is a good thing.
So to keep you on track without you needlessly going way off topic, let me give you two choices here of what you perfer:
Would you perfer that Iraq have:
A.) Freedoms and liberties?
B.) Police State rule?
A simple "A" or "B" will suffice.
__________________
"[Brian Blair] was a punk. I can break his fucking back - break his back and make him humble and then fuck his ass ... Suplex him, put him in a camel clutch, break his back, and fuck his ass - make him humble. Teach him to respect the Iron Sheik. And I didn't do it, because for the God and Jesus, and Mr. McMahon." -Khosrow Vaziri (The Iron Sheik)
|
|
|
Posting Rules
|
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts
HTML code is Off
|
|
|
All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:34 AM.
|
|