Viewpoints on atheism and a supernatural being (and/or Beings, Aliens, and Santa)

[Hearts_Purple]

Originally Posted by Saya

There's uses for religion, I think, but an emotional crutch shouldn't be one of them.

I agree with you 100% on this!

[HumanePain]

Originally Posted by Saya

HP, I have to disagree that God comforts people and people sin out of existential angst. Plenty of people have faith in God and cause immense amounts of suffering, from the Inquisition to Pope Benny who hates fags and will excommunicate anyone who dares invite women into the priesthood.

Yes I agree, and as I said there are self serving individuals that corrupt and twist the faith to suit their own purposes. "Maniacs in polyester slacks" as Rush said in Ghost of a chance. These individuals have been around since right after Jesus died. (Paul. He was the one asking that money be collected, and he was the one who got his panties in a twist about gays even though Jesus Himself never said anything against gays.)

Originally Posted by Saya

I don't like the idea of religion as a soothing method to encourage people to endure and feel like they have purpose.

But it is a noble method, noble enough that Jesus chose to sacrifice Himself for it. Self righteous suicide as System of a Down said in Chop Suey. A lot of people have been equally served well by the price He paid, when properly applied. But yes, people have suffered too (Muslims for example) because it was distorted, but that was not Jesus' intention. He loved people and wanted to help them.

Originally Posted by Saya

As you said, the universe is so infinite we cannot possibly know everything about it, so why assume anything about a being that may or may not exist and may or may not have created this thing we can't understand?

Agreed. A Nihilistic approach is a careful approach to Truth.

Originally Posted by Saya

There's uses for religion, I think, but an emotional crutch shouldn't be one of them.

Think of it as a crutch for the sick. Certainly a healthy person has no need for a crutch. And better Jesus than a bottle for some who otherwise would die of cirrhosis of the liver or a heroin overdose.


I think that the approach of "whatever it takes" when it comes to improving (some) people's lives is worth it. Because some people cannot control themselves without outside help. One must admit that there is a definite track record of faith saving people from self destructive behavior. Is that such a bad thing?

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

No, it's not at all like that.

You have the ability to reject your parents' "brainwashing." A kid with a broken leg does not, obviously, have the practical ability to walk on his leg.

All that stands in your way is you being afraid of your parents' reaction to you rejecting their religion.

I grew up Irish Catholic. My ex grew up as a Jehovah's Witness. My best friend grew up as a Mormom.

Now please, attack my ignorance of how certain religions TRY to limit information. Notice, I said TRY. You're making a choice to accept the bullshit, and not get information for yourself. This is the 21st century for fuck's sake. Even the fucking Chinese hack their government's firewalls to get information from the West. And if you seriously have the audacity to try to tell me you're more limited in your religious household than people are in China, you're full of horseshit.

I've gone through the whole rejection of religion thingy, myself, what is why I advocate a little more understanding and an approach that is more reasonable than telling some one to just get over it or in your words to grow a backbone.

The harm that has been done to one's mind IS a big deal and can be as debilitating as a physical ailment, just ask some one who's agoraphobic or some one with a severe anxiety disorder. It can be hard to reason one's way to a correct assumption when the only tool's one has are circular logic, magical thinking, and superstition.

Religions and cults can limit the information that people will allow for themselves and their families to have readily available, especially if the family is devout. Brainwashed people are often filled with revision and guilt when they go against the doctrines of the faith and often compulsively ignore evidence that contradicts them.

I'm not saying that there's no personal choice involved, and it does take willpower to follow through with the decision.

What I am saying is that your comment oversimplifys the situation. Religious indoctrination can go deep, especially when one was steeped in it in their formative years when the young brain is still developing. There are compulsions and misguided conceptions that are almost subconscious that one has to abolish.

[Magila]

why not focus on your human quality instead of unproven beliefs of things or entities that never actually showed real proof of existence?

I remember reading once in human psychology, that a persons life is like a pyramid, it's a pyramid of needs that need to be satisfied...

when a person reaches the top of the pyramid, as in satisfying most of his needs (reality), he'll lead himself into "beyond reality".

Humans tend to always want to go on top of a pyramid, to satisfy more and more needs be it mental or physical, hence why they move into the supernatural on later stages.

But sometimes; which happens a lot, some tend to go into the supernatural even when being on the bottom of the pyramid of (reality) needs, most probably it's because they are deep down pretty fucked in real life, be it a job, a relationship, friends, etc.

When they do that, i guess if looked at rationally, it's just the person trying to escape reality worries into things he might not know of, or "think" that he does know of, as you notice, all religions or beliefs tell you "you're going to be fine after death, if you (insert acts)... i seriously find this the best excuse to escape the real world and make up an excuse for not sucking so much at things.

It's just like the movies, people watch happy stories and assure themselves life might lead them into such a scene...

But later they get sad because life is not like that...

So to be honest, supernatural beliefs are the first reason why the majority are not having it really happy mentally.

Many have the wrong image on the real world, hence why they forgot most of its beauties, things that make you enjoy every fucking single surprise you find in life, even bad ones (seriously).

Start looking more into "reality", accept it, and you'll love it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by HumanePain

Yes I agree, and as I said there are self serving individuals that corrupt and twist the faith to suit their own purposes. "Maniacs in polyester slacks" as Rush said in Ghost of a chance. These individuals have been around since right after Jesus died. (Paul. He was the one asking that money be collected, and he was the one who got his panties in a twist about gays even though Jesus Himself never said anything against gays.)

But when it becomes about following scripture to T it becomes less self serving and more dogmatic. I can't think of any advantage Benny has by taking the stances he does unless he really wants Catholicism to become as irrelevant as possible, when perhaps nowadays the best thing to do is try to be more inclusive.

But it is a noble method, noble enough that Jesus chose to sacrifice Himself for it. Self righteous suicide as System of a Down said in Chop Suey. A lot of people have been equally served well by the price He paid, when properly applied. But yes, people have suffered too (Muslims for example) because it was distorted, but that was not Jesus' intention. He loved people and wanted to help them.

Did Jesus die so we could feel better about our role in the world or did he die because someone had to pay for original sin? He was the scapegoat for our sins, wasn't he? I don't think someone getting nailed to a cross would cheer me up I think Jesus was a cool guy but I'm not sure if it was his intention to become merely an idea that gets people out of the blues.

Agreed. A Nihilistic approach is a careful approach to Truth.

This is where I break out into song, "But what is truth? Is truth unchanging law? We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?"

Think of it as a crutch for the sick. Certainly a healthy person has no need for a crutch. And better Jesus than a bottle for some who otherwise would die of cirrhosis of the liver or a heroin overdose.


I think that the approach of "whatever it takes" when it comes to improving (some) people's lives is worth it. Because some people cannot control themselves without outside help. One must admit that there is a definite track record of faith saving people from self destructive behavior. Is that such a bad thing?

It can't be a crutch for the "sick" either because a) thats kinda admitting Christians are people who just cant deal with reality, and while maybe thats true for a lot of them I have met Christians (like you!) who are far better than that, religions is a means for their search for truth, not something they need. When that happens, when religion isn't a means to an end but the end itself, thats when people get defensive and dogmatic. When you rely on something so wholely, you're more likely to become a fanatic.

And this is why I don't like "whatever it takes". Someone who doesn't lets say murder because they fear the law isn't a better or worse person that someone who doesn't murder because they fear god's wrath. People should be moral people because its the right thing to do, because they genuinely love their fellow humankind or at least empathize enough with others regardless of dogma. This is why it shouldn't be a crutch, because its merely a band-aid approach. If a person joins Christianity or any other religion for that matter just to have a sense of purpose, that won't make them love, its very self serving. I think religion can be a way for people to find it in their hearts to forgive and let go and love, but merely consoling a sociopath that god loves them and they should feel special doesn't necessarily mean that they won't do bad things, just that they might now do bad things in the name of religion.

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

I've gone through the whole rejection of religion thingy, myself, what is why I advocate a little more understanding and an approach that is more reasonable than telling some one to just get over it or in your words to grow a backbone.

The harm that has been done to one's mind IS a big deal and can be as debilitating as a physical ailment, just ask some one who's agoraphobic or some one with a severe anxiety disorder. It can be hard to reason one's way to a correct assumption when the only tool's one has are circular logic, magical thinking, and superstition.

Religions and cults can limit the information that people will allow for themselves and their families to have readily available, especially if the family is devout. Brainwashed people are often filled with revision and guilt when they go against the doctrines of the faith and often compulsively ignore evidence that contradicts them.

I'm not saying that there's no personal choice involved, and it does take willpower to follow through with the decision.

What I am saying is that your comment oversimplifys the situation. Religious indoctrination can go deep, especially when one was steeped in it in their formative years when the young brain is still developing. There are compulsions and misguided conceptions that are almost subconscious that one has to abolish.

Look, all I'm getting at here is you have the choice to accept indoctrination, or to go against it and draw your own conclusions. It doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics, racism, or anything else. The only thing that stands in the way of that, in any case, is fear of the consequences. Whether it's being arrested for speaking against a government, or being rejected by your family. If avoiding those consequences is more important than free thought to anyone, is up to them to decide. But trying to say that you CAN'T form your own opinions, CAN'T access information, is just a plain cop-out.

By the way, where in Colorado are you? I just moved to Carbondale.

[Sinjob]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

I truly don't mean to argue, and I'm sorry if I pissed people off. I understand that most of you think my thoughts on things are off the wall...but I'm just really (and I admit this with the utmost sincerity) defensive when it comes to anyone blatantly calling me an idiot.

I never would have known. Congratulations for admitting this. Totally.

Nobody gives a shit WHY you do it, it's that you keep doing it and makes you look stupider each time. So grow the fuck up when people call you an idiot and try and listen to what they're saying. Because honestly nothing you have said an intellectual would agree with.

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

Look, all I'm getting at here is you have the choice to accept indoctrination, or to go against it and draw your own conclusions. It doesn't matter whether it's religion, politics, racism, or anything else. The only thing that stands in the way of that, in any case, is fear of the consequences. Whether it's being arrested for speaking against a government, or being rejected by your family. If avoiding those consequences is more important than free thought to anyone, is up to them to decide. But trying to say that you CAN'T form your own opinions, CAN'T access information, is just a plain cop-out.

By the way, where in Colorado are you? I just moved to Carbondale.

I never said one can't form their own opinions. I never said one can't access information. I haven't even touched on possible ostracization by family. I said its hard to rid one's self of indoctrination and that walking away from some religions isn't as simple as the act of walking away. This isn't black and white, its some strange multicolored mishmash of human nature and the abuse of it.

People going through this process often need help and understanding, as it can be a rather large undertaking for some.

[JCC.]

Who needs God when Tha DuckmanG is already so awesome?

[PortraitOfSanity]

Originally Posted by ape descendant

People going through this process often need help and understanding, as it can be a rather large undertaking for some.

They're not getting over a ****, they're improving their lives. I just don't see eye to eye with you here, if you're not strong enough to reject a lie, no amount of coddling will do you any good.

You didn't say where in CO you are.

[Ben Lahnger]

As the song goes, "There's no such thing as an original sin."

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

I don't really know you, but you just got serious awesome points.

**blushes** thank you.


HP - I agree.

I swing more to the esoteric side of the equations myself.

The universe/god- all the same. It's all alive, all living, all benefits from kind words and kind actions.

Dr Masaru Emoto's work is fascinating. He photographed drops of water at the moment they froze.

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by JCC.

Who needs God when Tha DuckmanG is already so awesome?

Nobody can handle your majestic greatness, so they have to find something more simple to grasp...............

[ape descendant]

Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity

They're not getting over a ****, they're improving their lives. I just don't see eye to eye with you here, if you're not strong enough to reject a lie, no amount of coddling will do you any good.

You didn't say where in CO you are.

Of course we don't see eye to eye on this, as part of rejecting a lie is knowing that it's a lie in the first place, that is where these things that I've been talking about come into play.

And I think there's a difference between coddling and offering support. I prefer a sincere discussion of ideas to personal attacks and name calling.

While I agree that rejecting dogmatic religion is an act of life improvement, so is getting one's tonsils removed if one has severe tonsillitis. Ultimately one's health will be improved but right after surgery one needs time and assistance to recuperate.

You are correct, I didn't say where in CO I live.

[JCC.]

You're simple, why aren't you revered?

[vindicatedxjin]

Originally Posted by JCC.

You're simple, why aren't you revered?

... Oh I have my followers.

[JCC.]

Parasites and lice don't count.

[vindicatedxjin]

...Yes they do.

[Sinjob]

No. They don't. Plus, who would want to follow an Asian?

[vindicatedxjin]

Not just any Asian, but a mixed Asian. Girl.

Who has cool hair.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Sinjob

No. They don't. Plus, who would want to follow an Asian?

You didn't know that this was a trend?

[Sinjob]

Originally Posted by Saya

You didn't know that this was a trend?

What do you mean?

And Jin, the only time Asians would follow other Asians would be when Mao had to FORCE all of China to. That's why they suck. Bro.

[vindicatedxjin]

...what asian is following me? I'm talking about fleas and parasites here dude...get with the program...

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Sinjob

What do you mean?

You can sell anything when you give it an Asian label and get an Asian to sell it!

People eat placenta because they think its an ancient Chinese secret. The only reason anyone listens to the Dalai Lama flip flop about is because he's a pleasant elderly Asian man.

[Sinjob]

Originally Posted by vindicatedxjin

...what asian is following me? I'm talking about fleas and parasites here dude...get with the program...

ASIAN=PARASITE.

Intertwines.

And you really need to stop you're attempts in talking down to me. You have no idea how retarded it sounds.