Born a Goth or Made a Goth?.....

[Maimy]

Part of my problem with the "born" thing is probably a very tenacious resistance to even be considered any one thing. I said back when I first joined that I am not a goth, not because I feel I don't embody some of the general characteristics and preferences people think of when they define goth in their heads, but because I embody so many other things *as well*. I am a corporate goon. I am a goth. I am a leather-wearing, metal-diggin' bimbo. I am a romantic. I am a wildly devoted daughter and aunt and sister and niece. I am a writer - of so many different things. I am a child. I am an ice queen. I am a puddle. I am green. I am wise. I am naive. I am a counselor. I am a liberal. I am a conservative.

I am unnameable.

Nobody may name me, nobody may claim me - least of all myself. I am G-d's - but what G-d put in motion I am responsible for ... so I am my own creation. I take pride in it and effort to maintain and grow within it, and very real umbrage at the idea that some Fate offered me up to become what it expected.

I cannot be predicted.

I am nurture, not nature. I am accountable.

I am Spartacus ...

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by Maimy

Part of my problem with the "born" thing is probably a very tenacious resistance to even be considered any one thing. I said back when I first joined that I am not a goth, not because I feel I don't embody some of the general characteristics and preferences people think of when they define goth in their heads, but because I embody so many other things *as well*. I am a corporate goon. I am a goth. I am a leather-wearing, metal-diggin' bimbo. I am a romantic. I am a wildly devoted daughter and aunt and sister and niece. I am a writer - of so many different things. I am a child. I am an ice queen. I am a puddle. I am green. I am wise. I am naive. I am a counselor. I am a liberal. I am a conservative.

I am unnameable.

Nobody may name me, nobody may claim me - least of all myself. I am G-d's - but what G-d put in motion I am responsible for ... so I am my own creation. I take pride in it and effort to maintain and grow within it, and very real umbrage at the idea that some Fate offered me up to become what it expected.

I cannot be predicted.

I am nurture, not nature. I am accountable.

I am Spartacus ...

NO!

I am SPARTACUS!!!!

:twisted:

[alliecat]

i believe we are born with gothic tendencies, but events in our life are also an important factor. btw,peeps, some of you are very confused about how genetics work. *cough cough fallenangel666*prep+prep does not nessesarily mean they will beget a prep. if one of the preps is a carrier goth then there is a possibility of them begeting a gothic son/daughter. that is, if you belive that sorta thing. this is probably way to simple-minded if there is a goth gene but it gets the very basics

[WolfMoon]

Originally Posted by alliecat

i believe we are born with gothic tendencies, but events in our life are also an important factor. btw,peeps, some of you are very confused about how genetics work. *cough cough fallenangel666*prep+prep does not nessesarily mean they will beget a prep.

Um, I think you might be a tad confused.Fallen' said the exact same thing you just did.

Originally Posted by fallenangel666

if your parents were...say....preppy, you wont automatically be preppy, it is your choice!

edit:Regarding genetics and personality.I've nevr met my father but my mother and any one who knew him tell me my personality is so much like his it's astounding.So I tend to believe some of us are born with distinct personality traits.

[punkirony]

i am basing my opinion on how i watched one of my friends BECOME a goth. maybe she always had the mingd of one but... she started showing herself as a goth right after her boyfriend totally fucked with her mind.(a lot of us like her better as a goth than a prep. all should agree on this one).
so... i think that people's goth personalities are hidden until something triggers it and then WHAMBAM!!...the goth inside them is awaken. 8)

[maryslollirotcoffin]

i dont really know if you can be born goth, if you just, by chance, become one, or if something tramatic happened to you in your life to make you that way. myself, there are four factors that could have been the reasons for the way i am now. as a child in elementry school, i was stigmatized by burns on my left arm and back, this caused me to become this sensitive, easily depressed, loner, and doomed to never become popular, and i knew it every time they yelled "skin milk" at me or called me ugly. i hated it, and wish it had never happened. the results of the long term mental damage of this isnt at all desirable. i know alot of people wished that they were depressed, and think that its cool, but its not. everyday, i go through extremes, super happy, or blinding rage, and blinding rage turns into hopelesness, depression, and insecurity. anything makes me angry.
it couldve been when i left my mom to live with my dad in new hampshire, who was into heavy metal and industrial, and owned the crow soundtrack. i got into the music my dad was listening to, but most of it just didnt feel right, until i listened to the crow soundtrack, and heard the cure. i soon became in love with robert smith, and obsessed over the cure.
my mom always tells me i was a strange child, and isnt suprised at all with me. ive always been pretty rebelious, i renounced my religion at an early age, baptist, becuase i felt that god hated me becuase i often wanted to kiss my best freinds when we played truth or dare, and becuase i was a tomboy and didnt think i should be a slave to some middle aged man who was just going to cheat on me anyway, and becuase i loved harry potter. i dressed diffrent from the other kids(exept in 6th grade, becuase i was trying to be popular, but that just didnt work out, just made me hate myself even more), and would do things the other girls wouldnt. i was a feminist, hehehehe...
also, i cant forget my harry potter obsession, and when my mom brought home a bunch of vampire books, one of them about the goth subculture, and poeple obsession with vampirism.
so any of things couldve done it for me, maybe all of them.
i believe that sometimes poeple can be just born the way they are, or the people around them morph them into what they are, just like how the poeple you tease could become your murderer.
oh, and as for the broken home theory, i also have mixed feelings about that. i know alot of popular people who have horrid homelifes, but that didnt change the way the look, but maybe it has diffrent effects on people.

this is a great topic, it really made me think, and look deep inside of myself. thanks for bringing it up.

[Jane13]

I think people are born goth. Even when I was little I enjoyed art museums to theme parks, and I wore all of the black clothes that my mom would buy, and usually sympathysed with the villains of those trivial dysney-movie plots (besides, the bad guys have all the best lines!).

This doesn't have anything to do with that, but my friends and I were about 6 years old the first time we saw "Monty Python and The Holey Grail", and we whent around the playground shouting "Bring out your dead! Bring out your dead!"

I was also the one who told the other kids that "Ring Around The Roseys" is about the plague... I didn't really have a good idea what the plague was, but I knew it was really bad. I can thank my brother for that information.

For a while I was quite a geek, but a slightly morbid one, but I really wanted to be popular, and the Hippy look came in, so I stopped talking about the things I wnated to, and starting drawing rainbows and sunshine everywhere. Long story short, since about 3rd grade I had been unhappy and uncomfortable with myself. I finally found mediums to work with to express myself, and other people's art that I can relate to. The gothic sucultre is what finally made me happy and comfortable, and I realized that this is who I am.

BTW Gypsy, it's great to hear from you again. I like to think of you as a sort of omnipreseance, watching out for all of us. You're just that ind of person.

[Gypsy2222]

Hmmmmmmmm.... So this thread has been quickened has it?....

Very well...

Originally Posted by punkirony

i am basing my opinion on how i watched one of my friends BECOME a goth. maybe she always had the mingd of one but... she started showing herself as a goth right after her boyfriend totally fucked with her mind.(a lot of us like her better as a goth than a prep. all should agree on this one).
so... i think that people's goth personalities are hidden until something triggers it and then WHAMBAM!!...the goth inside them is awaken. 8)

So once again the question becomes how do you define goth? You stated yourself that "Maybe she always had the mind of one but..." Does ones mentality not determine ones reality? I have always advocated that the clothes do not make the goth, it is the need to create from, or appreciate that which others would call 'dark' that makes us who we are... does this not start in the mind? Would it not be better to say that she did not become a goth per se but simply brought forth more of that which is goth forward into her reality? You yourself also stated "She started showing herself as a goth right after..." I believe this supports the statement that she was always a goth within, but simply had not "come out of the closet" yet... So it would seem to follow that she was always goth within, indeed... Born a goth.....

Originally Posted by maryslollirotcoffin

i dont really know if you can be born goth, if you just, by chance, become one, or if something tramatic happened to you in your life to make you that way. myself, there are four factors that could have been the reasons for the way i am now. as a child in elementry school, i was stigmatized by burns on my left arm and back, this caused me to become this sensitive, easily depressed, loner, and doomed to never become popular, and i knew it every time they yelled "skin milk" at me or called me ugly. i hated it, and wish it had never happened. the results of the long term mental damage of this isnt at all desirable. i know alot of people wished that they were depressed, and think that its cool, but its not. everyday, i go through extremes, super happy, or blinding rage, and blinding rage turns into hopelesness, depression, and insecurity. anything makes me angry.

A truly difficult thing to live with to be sure... and though I do not discount that it may have had some hand in shaping your personality and who you are today, I would think that you reacted to this catalyst in a way that was cohesive to your natural born nature... I find that in difficult situations or when placed under great duress and stress people tend to show what is truly inside themselves, at a base level instinctively... For you this was accentuated by the damage of the constant harrasment by your peers... So the question then becomes "As your mind adapted to the additional strain and isolation by venting through emotion did this infact make you initially desire to create or appreciate the so called darkness within... or was that trait always there?"...

Originally Posted by maryslollirotcoffin

it couldve been when i left my mom to live with my dad in new hampshire, who was into heavy metal and industrial, and owned the crow soundtrack. i got into the music my dad was listening to, but most of it just didnt feel right, until i listened to the crow soundtrack, and heard the cure. i soon became in love with robert smith, and obsessed over the cure.

Once again, I do not believe that it is the music that makes the goth, but the mental need to create and appreciate things from a darker perspective...

Either way (though it's not particularly topic related), I am curious as to how Robert Smiths music affected you... You were rather unspecific... You said "but most of it just didnt feel right, until i listened to the crow soundtrack, and heard the cure..." Did the rest of it feel 'right' after you heard The Cure then? Or did you simply identify with a small portion of your Father somewhat better?...

Originally Posted by maryslollirotcoffin

my mom always tells me i was a strange child, and isnt suprised at all with me. ive always been pretty rebelious, i renounced my religion at an early age, baptist, becuase i felt that god hated me becuase i often wanted to kiss my best freinds when we played truth or dare, and becuase i was a tomboy and didnt think i should be a slave to some middle aged man who was just going to cheat on me anyway, and becuase i loved harry potter. i dressed diffrent from the other kids(exept in 6th grade, becuase i was trying to be popular, but that just didnt work out, just made me hate myself even more), and would do things the other girls wouldnt. i was a feminist, hehehehe...
also, i cant forget my harry potter obsession, and when my mom brought home a bunch of vampire books, one of them about the goth subculture, and poeple obsession with vampirism.
so any of things couldve done it for me, maybe all of them.
i believe that sometimes poeple can be just born the way they are, or the people around them morph them into what they are, just like how the poeple you tease could become your murderer.

The very first line in this section of the statement supports my theory of Born vs. Made. As a matter of fact... everything within this section that applies to being goth supports the Born theory (he he he... it has a title now... lol...)

Originally Posted by maryslollirotcoffin

oh, and as for the broken home theory, i also have mixed feelings about that. i know alot of popular people who have horrid homelifes, but that didnt change the way the look, but maybe it has diffrent effects on people.

Which also supports the idea that one reacts to situations on what gifts and tendencies already lie within them... The lighter person shall move towards the light... and the goth to the goth... lol... (I changed it from dark to dark specifically for TStone so he doesn't go off on Lucasfilm again... ~lil' grin~)

Originally Posted by maryslollirotcoffin

this is a great topic, it really made me think, and look deep inside of myself. thanks for bringing it up.

You are very welcome (though it was brought up a good while ago... lol..)

Neeeeeeeeext!!!

~Chuckle~

Originally Posted by Jane13

Long story short, since about 3rd grade I had been unhappy and uncomfortable with myself. I finally found mediums to work with to express myself, and other people's art that I can relate to. The gothic sucultre is what finally made me happy and comfortable, and I realized that this is who I am.

BTW Gypsy, it's great to hear from you again. I like to think of you as a sort of omnipresence, watching out for all of us. You're just that kind of person.

:: Watch the ego grow.... ::

~lil' chuckle~

Thank you lass... for both supporting my point of view and welcoming me back home. You had better watch it though, before you compliment me so much I become the next Mael!!! (as much as we love the guam-woman-over-18-defiler.... Yes Mael, I remember)... lol....


...and I always watch out for my own...


Always and Forever,
~The Gypsy~

Edit: From thai to guam...

[Panther]

Should I throw my two cents in? Ah, what the hell.

I think people are born with the capacity to be whatever they want to be, and something in life makes them into what they become, whether it be punk, prep, or some other sub-culture that starts with 'p'.

I myself think I was always leaning toward being goth. My favorite word until I was six or seven was corpse (I played with the scary kid at recess). I was told it was wrong, and that jokes abt death and dead thigns were wrong,and I should never think about it again. Then things kinda settled down, and I got used to catholic school (coming from public school), which meant being depressed a lot.

Life kinda went through a huge period of upheval, and I fought to either be someone else, or be nobody. Psychiatrist were called in, and lied to. Court battles raged. I wondered what the hell the world had been like before, and why I'd ever wanted to be part of it in the first place.

When I left, I spent a summer looking for clothes that were not catholic school issue. I went for color, which I had been deprived of, and loved so much.

But there wsa something not right about all the clothing I bought. Pastels were 'in' then, butt hey were too muted, not nearly vibrant enouh. So I went for more noticable colors.

Eventually I kinda just slid into dark and interresting clothing. I'd alwyas had a love for outrageous clothing of all kinds, and played wiht make up to make any shock rock act from the eighties proud of me as a young child. I devoured books, and loved nothing better than being left alone to talk to my imaginary friends, playing out my secret little dreams to ward off boredom.

I make that sound so much more past tense than it actually is. But now I call it writing. So, it's admissable daydreaming, as long as I have a pencil in hand.

So, when did I become goth? When I stopped trying to be everyone else. I'm not, honestly, sure that this is me, but it's as close as I've ever been.

[Panther]

Should I throw my two cents in? Ah, what the hell.

I think people are born with the capacity to be whatever they want to be, and something in life makes them into what they become, whether it be punk, prep, or some other sub-culture that starts with 'p'.

I myself think I was always leaning toward being goth. My favorite word until I was six or seven was corpse (I played with the scary kid at recess). I was told it was wrong, and that jokes abt death and dead thigns were wrong,and I should never think about it again. Then things kinda settled down, and I got used to catholic school (coming from public school), which meant being depressed a lot.

Life kinda went through a huge period of upheval, and I fought to either be someone else, or be nobody. Psychiatrist were called in, and lied to. Court battles raged. I wondered what the hell the world had been like before, and why I'd ever wanted to be part of it in the first place.

When I left, I spent a summer looking for clothes that were not catholic school issue. I went for color, which I had been deprived of, and loved so much.

But there wsa something not right about all the clothing I bought. Pastels were 'in' then, butt hey were too muted, not nearly vibrant enouh. So I went for more noticable colors.

Eventually I kinda just slid into dark and interresting clothing. I'd alwyas had a love for outrageous clothing of all kinds, and played wiht make up to make any shock rock act from the eighties proud of me as a young child. I devoured books, and loved nothing better than being left alone to talk to my imaginary friends, playing out my secret little dreams to ward off boredom.

I make that sound so much more past tense than it actually is. But now I call it writing. So, it's admissable daydreaming, as long as I have a pencil in hand.

So, when did I become goth? When I stopped trying to be everyone else. I'm not, honestly, sure that this is me, but it's as close as I've ever been.

[OnixxFilth]

I totally agree with one of the earlier posts, that a person must be born with the latent tendencies or the potential to become a goth, but may never reveal that facet of themselves if they never encounter or learn about goth culture. I guess I kinda morphed from grunge to metalhead to goth in a natural succession of growing "creepiness". I was always looking to one-up myself, and when I heard about goth, I realized it was what I'd always been feeling- that dark things such as death and graveyards can be beautiful if looked at in the right way. So "Onixx" was born!

[Deadhymn]

Onixx....goth is not a status symbol, but your comments arent suprising....drivel often falls from the gaping maw of a mouth-breather.

[OnixxFilth]

Geez, soooory! *copious sarcasm* I didn't mean that I did it to gain some sort of status, I only mean that it was a natural thing for me to "evolve", in a way, into a goth. Kind of like crawling, then walking, then running. "Mouth breather", indeed! :twisted:

[no_transitory]

I agree that something in your early upbringing would have to bring on being *goth*, but i dont think you can be born as a goth. you aren't born a prep or a rocker or anything. it's Nuture that brings up these little clusters in society.

as a child I wasn't oxcessively morbid or anything, i just enjoyed Iron maiden over britney spears, I loved The Nightmare Before Christmas and I effing LOVED halloween. I liked to dress up and paint my face with makeup all, different like.

I was surprisingly a very popular girl in garde 8. I was soo blonde adn wore like only jeans and swetarers becuase I wanted to fit in so bad. Entering high scool however I met other people, the punk kids, teh metal heads, the goths. and I just allowed myself to slip into their crowd, where I feel a hell of alot more comfortable in high boots and fancy clothes then in plain sweat shirts adn jeans.

I just think, you *morph* into being goth, based on previous encounters with the culture and stuff from childhood.

[OnixxFilth]

I used to have to conform in my early elementary school years, because I went to a private, parochial school (skirts to your knees, no jeans), so high school was an extremely liberating experience. Junior high I also went to a private school, but one that was less restrictive- there was still the limit on skirt length, but you could wear jeans and girls could wear pants. About eighth grade was when I became a "grunger"- I used to wear this striped shirt and a sweater over it that looked almost exactly like one I've seen Kurt Cobain wearing in a poster. I think tenth grade was when I became more of a metalhead, and took to wearing lots of Ozzy and Metallica t-shirts and combat boots. Goth was next, around 11th grade, and I've been goth ever since. People have claimed (like my mom) that goth will be just another "phase" for me, but I don't think so. I think this is what I was meant to be, what I was "evolving" towards all along.

[no_transitory]

Yeah my Mum does that whole this is just a phase thing too. She went thru the whole British Punk thing and Goth thing in teh 80s. She is always like oh how original Kyelle, but meeehhh. I like who I am. I think, that I will be like this for a long time, even after I graduate this yera and hit the *real world*.

[OnixxFilth]

Yeah, well my Mom used to be a hippie and stuff, so now she wishes she'd saved her stuff because I wear some of that stuff sometimes too besides my goth stuff, like peasant blouses and that. I can understand why she thinks it's a phase, but I think she's wrong.

[stonesoul1]

I have often posed this question to myself in the past. I would have to say i was born to be goth, simply because I aways was goth. Growing up in a small town, fullof small minded people. I never even heard the word goth till my late teen years. But by that point i already was a goth in appearance, attitudes, philosophy, social behavior, the works, goth in all but name (though i didn't start wearing make-up till college, as my continuing place of residence depended on at least the illsuion of some normality). By the Time I knew what goth was, I was goth. So i'd have to say I was born to be so, but by the same scale, once i knew what goth was, i could have taken the societally approved path, and denied it, denied myself, chosen a more "Normal" path. So does that mean I chose? or was my choice to remain goth merely a reflection of my being born goth? I think it's safe to say that I was born a goth, and that hlped me to choose the paths along my life that gace me the calrity of thought to chose to remain goth, once i knew what it was.

[OnixxFilth]

Oh, so you don't wanna appear to be on the side of an underdog? *laughs jokingly* I understand not wanting to draw attention to yourself. Like I stated earlier, I think some people are born with latent gothic tendencies that may not surface unless they are exposed to certain influences- perhaps goth music, or a traumatic event- there are many triggers, I think. It's like a gene being "expressed", i.e., turned on.

[vulseTaH]

I think it can be one, or the other or a mixture of the two. People are all different, they have different reasons for being who they are today whether it's a goth or a hippy or just a plain weirdo. Also, might I add that the label, goth can mean so many different things and include so many different traits that this question is in the middle of a war of opinions. The question is basically asking "is a person born who they are or do the events in a person's life make a person?" I would say for most cases, it's that second one.

[winged_dreams]

Woohoo. Two nicely intelligent posts. Experiences do shape people but some people have a natural inclination towards certain things. I'm a nature and nuture type of person.

[OnixxFilth]

I definetely agree with Xnguela- I think it's a combination of both nature and nurture.

[OnixxFilth]

I'm not a suck-up silly! Can't I just agree with you? *pouts* You just have so many clever things to say!

[drgnlvr]

I have a very vivid imagination! :shock:

[OnixxFilth]

Oh, Xnguela :roll: . You're so amusing, but, being straight, I choose not to imagine what another female might choose to do with her tongue. Speaking of which, did I ever tell about the time when I got tickled by a bi chick and accidentally turned her on by threatening to bite her?