Oh no! Fat Goth people. - Page 7

DeathChii · 09-09-2007, 07:31 PM

obesity isn't genetic... People get fat because their metabalism is slower than of what they eat.
I mean, how it works is that you eat fats and carbs [mind you there are good and bad fats and carbs] and what happends is your cells take the carbs and the fats and use them for energy to work. If you have a fast metabalism, then the cells use it for short term energy, if you have a slower metabalism, your cells will store the fat as long term energy [hence why you get fat]. Your metabalism is controlled on the amount of excersise you do or how active you are. Of course part of it is genetic, but anyone can speed it up by excersising. Trust me. People who actualy have a genetic problem that makes them fat [because of their cells being unable to do what is needed] are Very VERY sick and have been gaining weight since Childhood NONSTOP. There are maybe 2 cases known of in the world, that have survived anyways. Luckily because at 16 the disease happened to slow down.

MollyMac · 09-09-2007, 08:47 PM

d.Nox:

"That's a good point. However, that standard does have a few failings."

Of course it's a good point, silly. and of course it has failings. Dealing with mental health, there is no black and white.

"First, being anorexic doesn't mean being stupid. Most anorexics--or at least, any that I've talked to or read interviews with, etc.--know perfectly well that if they'd eat more they'd be healthier and people would stop bugging them. They're aware of the decision; they just decide based on criteria that most of us see as harmful and irrational."

I never said that anorexics are stupid. But there is a difference between a diagnosed anorexic and an undioagnosed anorexic. What I was referring to is the person who has anorexia and, stupid as this sounds, does not recognize that they have a problem. If you don't know something is unhealthy, then what is there to decide? In the recovery process, it is nothing but decisions and how to gage them.

"Second, your criterion for a disorder gives society what I see to be an undue amount of leeway in deciding what is and isn't a disease. For instance, many religious people do not consider themselves to have an option in the way they worship; but if society as a whole were to decide that such worship were unhealthy, it would be a disorder no less than anorexia."

Manner of worship is determined by external forces and your willingness to accept or reject them, anorexia is an internal force that you have to learn to accept ot reject. External force is not disease, it in injury. Internal force is disease.

"(As for the flaming, whenever I've said something like this IRL, people tend to get snippy; I assumed it'd be the same or worse online. Glad to see that's not the case, yet.)"

Seriously, I know you and I are not going to see eye to eye on this matter. And that's life. But why flame someone who differs in opinion when they support their opinions with valid perceptions, facts, or even just an emotion and not ad hominem attacks or snivelling petulence?

I save my flames for bullshit and willful ignorance

MollyMac · 09-09-2007, 08:50 PM

Death Chii_

Obesity is not genetic in and of itself, but you can be genetically predisposed to metabolism issues and body structure just as much as you can be disposed to heart disease or high blood pressure.

If you know you have th epropensity for it (ie, if your family is girthy), then that is motivation enough to work spitingly agianst the chromosomes and stay as healthy as possible.. it is simply easier to give in to genetics and the "nurture" aspect of family diet and blame the genes.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-09-2007, 08:55 PM

Lucretia and Nox both make very valid points--*forgive me if I sound a bit vague- tired* but I have to say that in certain countries, things like diabetes and cancer are unheard of AS WELL as disorders like anorexia --think about it...why is that the case. I think the problems for "disorders" like ADD and anorexia are inherent in cultures that are obsessed with looks, wealth, perfection and status, without juxtapositioning that with good eating habits and spiritual growth. I had a South African friend of mine who had never even heard of breast cancer until she moved to the US--same thing for anorexia...definite mind fodder

MollyMac · 09-09-2007, 09:10 PM

Just because you don't know about it, does not mean that it does not exist.

But I have heard interesing opinions that some disorders are inherent to first world countries, as if freer time and more available resources remedies common physical and folk ailments so we must "create" new ones.

LaBelleDameSansMerci · 09-09-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by d.Nox

Why? There is no cure for anorexia which does not hinge on willpower. Saying "real anorexics have no control over their behavior" is the same thing as saying "real anorexics do not control their behavior." In order to cure anorexia, the only thing that needs to happen--the sole goal of interventions, counseling, and so forth--is that the anorexic must come to believe that they can control their behavior, and find a reason to do so.

Ditto for most (not all, but most) other neurotic behaviors. Labeling them diseases is, IMO, a disservice to those that suffer from them. A disease makes you a victim; but neuroses are your own issues brought to the fore. You're a victim only to the extent that you give up control to your demons.

A couple notable exceptions to disorders that people can't get out of using willpower is schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. It's apparently really hard to make a running commentary in your head stop, or to stop from randomly getting into such a good mood that you gamble away all your money and buy an exotic car, or think you can fly and subsequently jump off a building.
Even depression is really hard to control, especially if it's actually a neurotransmitter imbalance.
I find it very difficult, if not impossible, to not periodically convince myself that some friend or other of mine hates me, even my BEST friends that I've known for years and never had a real problem with. I know it's completely irrational on my part, but I can't just say "Nah, you're being silly." and make it go away. It just doesn't work, that's all there is to it.
A better name for most things like that would be a mental illness. I wouldn't call them diseases.

Quote:

Originally Posted by d.Nox

That doesn't mean that the best solution is to place anorexia etc. in the same category ("disorders requiring medical attention") as cancer, colds, or Parkinson's disease.

I don't think they are. You don't "catch" a mental illness. Some cancers one can bring upon oneself, like one can bring some mental illnesses on oneself, but cancer requires an almost completely different method of treatment. Parkinson's seems to be mainly dopamine deficiency, and L-Dopa helps with that, but if the dose is too high, the Parkinson's sufferer starts getting symptoms of schizophrenia....

And then there's personality disorders, which are a whole different thing. They're VERY hard to treat, cuz they affect litterally EVERYTHING about a person.

LaBelleDameSansMerci · 09-09-2007, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyMac

But I have heard interesing opinions that some disorders are inherent to first world countries, as if freer time and more available resources remedies common physical and folk ailments so we must "create" new ones.

Some disorders are inherent to certain areas or individual cultures, not only levels of development. In the same way, Western culture has shed some disorders that we used to have in common with third world countries. Conversion disorders are far more frequent both in third world countries (a famous example is the levels of non-physiological blindness in Cambodians who had to deal with the Khmer Rouge. They have vision problems that are "all in their heads"), and in earlier centuries. I think Freud (as much as I despise him) had quite a few conversion disorder cases. They seemed to have been more frequent in earlier centuries in western culture.

Sorry if I don't make sense... I'm ultra tired and just about to go to bed.

Rae Ven Rae · 09-09-2007, 10:57 PM

I am not saying ignorance means they are not real -- I am saying that there could be a correlation between western culture and certain types of disorders i.e. if we could figure out the casual relationships between these disorders, perhaps we could eradicate them so they don't exist, just as they do not in other countries......

Rae Ven Rae · 09-09-2007, 10:59 PM

*amendment*--that was supposed to be causal not casual* my bad...

d.Nox · 09-10-2007, 01:45 PM

MollyMac:

Yeah, I don't think we'll agree; in practice, though, I don't think the differences between our opinions come to that much. My main difficulty is with anorexia et al. being the province of doctors, rather than being seen for the culturally-mediated, predominantly value-based problem I see it to be. Other than that, I agree with most of what you've been saying.

Sidenote: IME, many religious people, especially those born into a religion, don't see their religion as coming from outside themselves. My parents are in this category; even though they acknowledge the social pressures of their religion, they claim that their belief is the result of internal spiritual experiences. But that's a different thread entirely.

Also, thank you for your politeness. Such reserve may come easily to you, but you're the exception to the rule.

d.Nox · 09-10-2007, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

A couple notable exceptions to disorders that people can't get out of using willpower is schizophrenia or bipolar disorder.

I agree completely; that's why I restricted my statement to neuroses, rather than more complex disorders. Both schizophrenia and the affective disorders have a major physiological component (and consequently respond better to medication than, say, anorexia). They also have a much broader scope, in terms of their effect on the patient, than do neuroses, which tend to affect only narrow sets of behaviors and situations (say, eating).

Quote:

I don't think they are. You don't "catch" a mental illness.

That's my point. Mental disorders are very different from physiological diseases, so why treat them with the same drug-happy, externally-oriented methods developed for the latter?

LaBelleDameSansMerci · 09-10-2007, 02:56 PM

Lol, d.nox, I was pretty much agreeing with you... I just don't know anyone that I can think of that puts them in the same category as cancer or a cold.

I guess a lot of mental disorders are kind of like mental versions of physical illness, though. There are predisposing factors, physiological/genetic elements (ex. enlarged ventricles in schizophrenic patients or the high rate of inheritability of many M.I.s), factors that are "you brought this upon yourself" type thing, like some cancers or by not washing your hands, or by not practising safe sex.
Some physiological illnesses create mental symptoms, like hallucinations, delusions, etc. I think flus and maybe colds, I can't remember, produce some mild depressive symptoms.

DeathChii · 09-10-2007, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MollyMac

Death Chii_

Obesity is not genetic in and of itself, but you can be genetically predisposed to metabolism issues and body structure just as much as you can be disposed to heart disease or high blood pressure.

If you know you have th epropensity for it (ie, if your family is girthy), then that is motivation enough to work spitingly agianst the chromosomes and stay as healthy as possible.. it is simply easier to give in to genetics and the "nurture" aspect of family diet and blame the genes.

You could be born with a slower metabalism, but this won't make you obese. And anyone can spead up their metabalism with excersise, just because you might need to do more excersise doesn't mean you can't. That's how your cells react, and if your cells are unable to store your fat properly, than you wouldn't be fat, you would be dead.

But yeah I do agree with you =P

DeathChii · 09-10-2007, 03:06 PM

schizophrenia and anorexia are two completely different stories.

MollyMac · 09-10-2007, 07:08 PM

And yet both are treatable and maligned...

I have seen some iffy research on anorexia as a symptom of a chemical imbalance; but I see true anorexia a a perfect storm. It's a predisposition in one's chemical make-up (like OCD in some ways) that encounters external factors that escalates a twitch into a convulsion. One or the other can lend towards a food obsession, but both together can produce anorexia (this is not definitive, it is merely my own opinion after reading much, often-conflicting, research)

Think of the reason that in-patient anorexia nervosa works so much bette rthan out-patient.. It ia almost aa no-fail environment where the whole focus is on healthy, not on aesthetic thinness. It is an environment when you are forced to give up control over your life completely and then learn to get it back and maintain it.

Ther are many releapses when the recovering anorexic gets back into the real world because the low pressure system meets the high pressure system

acid nightshade · 07-30-2008, 08:29 PM

Sorry, this is in reply to the original topic....

You know, nothing really annoys me more than having been put into a stereotype by people, and not being allowed to express who I really am... Before I graduated, I was hit with lable after insult, in complete circles....

Isn't this community more about self expression? If our own community cannot allow us to be whom we really are, then what is left?

They, the ones of our community who fail to accept us, are conforming... to what the original society has set the standards upon. Worthless, really.

Idealistically, Sessha shouldn't be hearing "You are a poser. Everyone knows that if you are fat, you cannot be Gothic."

Isn't this community's purpose to be understanding of flaws, physical, emotional, mental...ect?

If anyone is the poser, its those hypocritical "Goths" who fail to accept us for what we are....

MollyMac · 07-30-2008, 08:38 PM

But if you do not fit into the subculture, then you do not fit into the subculture. Read around here- goth is not about self expression, it is about that expression fitting predetermined parameters and preferences, what you can like/cannot like, what you wear, how you look, what you listen to. It is not your preference, but the preferences and precedents of those who your peers look to as forebears. Eithe ryou fit in or you do not. You seem to question it, so you do not fit in.

acid nightshade · 07-30-2008, 08:43 PM

I understand it well enough. Conformity to one culture is easier than a different culture. And self expression for me resides in the use of language. Poetry, Art, Music. That is self expression. Sessha can easily fit into the culture, but has a hard time with the hypocrites around her whom are insistent on not allowing Sessha to create what she wants and to still be in the culture because of a physical problem.

KontanKarite · 07-30-2008, 09:48 PM

You seem to think that goth is some kind of happy family all united under their tortured lives. Society hates us, let's all be together and be friends because everyone thinks we're freaks.

Please.

Simply put, if sessha likes goth rock, she's a goth. Big fucking deal though. She still might be a jerk.

Damn, I'm not even really all that dark as a person. I'd be willing to bet my bats that I'm more goth than your average spooky kid.

Joker_in_the_Pack · 07-30-2008, 09:49 PM

Lumbering masses of redundant protoplasm

Godslayer Jillian · 07-30-2008, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid nightshade

Isn't this community's purpose to be understanding of flaws, physical, emotional, mental...ect?

You know, I actually find it a little offensive that you're putting me in a fucking pedestal.

KontanKarite · 07-30-2008, 10:00 PM

Is that a hat behind the hammer and sickle, Jillian? I can never tell. IT looks like a paper plate and a pig snout.

Joker_in_the_Pack · 07-30-2008, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

You know, I actually find it a little offensive that you're putting me in a fucking pedestal.

I would be offended too, I fear there is not nearly enough leg room in a pedestal, at least when you're on one you can stretch your legs.

Joker_in_the_Pack · 07-30-2008, 10:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acid nightshade

You all misunderstood. My personal opinions are quite different from actuality. Sessha meant not to offend.

I misunderstood nothing. Truthfully, I couldn't be fucked to actually read your post, I was just poking fun at Jillian.

acid nightshade · 07-30-2008, 10:46 PM

You all misunderstood. My personal opinions are quite different from actuality. Sessha meant not to offend. Quite being, Sessha is not entirely aware of the world wide ideals of this... but only of what is in the community of her own small town, inwhich there is a community that does seem to be united under.... something that seems like emotional understanding to where the general public does not.... Sessha apologises profusely.

(Sessha meant to edit....)