Steampunk+race=A discussion

[Sinjob]

Anything can be racist or just hurtful if your hearts on your fucking sleeve.

[Fastidious]

Originally Posted by Solumina

We aren't talking about it because it is a non-issue. As I stated before steampunk does not take on the morals and values of the Victorian era. It is a complete re-working of the time period, where honestly nothing is really the same besides the aesthetics and basic etiquette.

The voice of reason...a non-issue indeed. Being neither racist nor steampunk, it actually chaps my ass to a certain degree when articles like this crop up attempting to explore controversy where none does, nor should, exist.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Lolly PopMuzik

I can accept that. I'm not telling anyone how to dress, I'm just curious as to how the POC who DO the whole fancypants/cogs and corsets/pantaloons can readily make peace with these eras and how to bridge those -isms with the majority. I just want a little food for thought and just wonder if they DO think about it, if at all.

I think its a good thing to think about. I'm late to the thread because I'm still not sure what to say, I'm white and I can't say what someone else should do, but I do agree that it is something people should keep in mind.

[Lolly PopMuzik]

Originally Posted by Saya

I think its a good thing to think about. I'm late to the thread because I'm still not sure what to say, I'm white and I can't say what someone else should do, but I do agree that it is something people should keep in mind.

Thanks to you, LC, Still Jack, Havelock, Solumina, and GM some good points were generated. Don't worry about being late, I may be making too big a deal of this but this issue still warrants some debate and discussion.

And why not, it's better than making yet another game.

[Angelic Dissonance]

Let's put it this way: Are you racist? Well, are you dressed like one? No Nazi armband, right? Is a petticoat really racist at all? Isn't it PEOPLE who are racist? And even if you were trying to be like someone else, does it matter at all that the people you're trying to be like never existed? Steampunk is, after all, fiction, and I'll be damned if I play someone elses chapter instead of writing my own.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Angelic Dissonance

Let's put it this way: Are you racist? Well, are you dressed like one? No Nazi armband, right? Is a petticoat really racist at all? Isn't it PEOPLE who are racist? And even if you were trying to be like someone else, does it matter at all that the people you're trying to be like never existed? Steampunk is, after all, fiction, and I'll be damned if I play someone elses chapter instead of writing my own.

If dressing as a Nazi is dressing as a racist (is an armband racist at all?), why wouldn't dressing like a Victorian be like dressing like a wealthy white woman/man who benefited from a society that greatly oppressed minorities not be something similar? Its not on par with dressing like a genocidal fuckhead but its silly to deny that Steampunk fashion is heavily borrowed from that era and also deny that the Victorians in general were racist douche bags. Its not really a question of whether the person wearing it is racist, but in a world where racism still exists no matter how much we'd like to pretend differently, its good to think critically about how one presents oneself and if thats in line with the individual's beliefs. If it is in line and its not important to you, fine, the whole point was just to think about it.

[Delkaetre]

One of the things about Steampunk is that it's usually alternative history, retrofuture.

It's a past and future that never were. It's quite possible that racism just didn't crop up in these alternate histories- perhaps we were declaring Empire over Venus and so we never indulged in racism over our fellow human and ally against the Venusian Menace.

In these worlds-that-never-were, human kind may be less inclined to racism and more inclined simply to the pursuit of Mad Science in general. It doesn't matter what colour you are so long as you can build a deathray out of normal kitchen implements.

[Konstantin]

Honestly, I'm mystified as to why people would take offence to someone wearing Victorian-era clothing.

It seems to me that some people make it their full-time hobby to be offended by shit. Everything's wrong, everything's offensive, everything is racist and hateful and oppressive.

So rich people wore top hats. Why the hell would people re-enacting a completely fictional rewrite of another era want to wear the rags if they can wear the finery? They didn't decide to brings things back to the way they used to be, instead simply drawing inspiration from select areas of it. Should we also crack down on Renaissance fairs? Last I checked, things weren't going so well for a lot of people back then, either. Or maybe we should look down on every type of national dress, because pretty much everyone's offended, attacked or enslaved everyone else at one point or another? How about hate every piece of art or literature created during a time when someone was in some way mistreated or disadvantaged, a.k.a. the entire human history?

Being aware of your roots and history is important. However, comparing the wearing of an armband with a swastika on it to wearing a top hat while pretending to be on a zeppelin? I'm sorry, but that's just going a little too far. It's completely ridiculous, and gives off a bit of a BAAAW vibe. Yes, thinking critically is important - but that goes for both sides. There are certain times when one needs to dial down their oversensitivity. Other than to the incredibly sensitive minds who deliberately search for things to gravely offend them, there aren't any such offensive things, express or implied, in Steampunk.

[300pockets]

I dislike steampunk for a number of reasons, many listed on my blog, which I shan't link to as it doesn't pertain to race.

However.

Steampunk is racist in some ways. Look at the costumes. Mostly European-esque. Who lives in Europe? Why, the Europeans!

I'm Chinese. Not a Chinese American, not until I turn 18 and pick citizenship.

Who built the railroad?

The Chinese.

For whom?

The white man.

Steampunk, to me, looked like a subculture I'd like because my skin tone isn't the pasty white I'd like it to be so I could effectively wear Goth clothes. My fault for going into the sun as well. However, too many people in the "subculture" are tools.

An example.

2 years ago, history report for school, had to wear period clothes, so I bust out a steampunk ensemble. Petticoats, dress, corset, bodice, cincher, cravat, bonnet.

Girl asks me what it is, calls it "brown Goth", I tell her to google "steampunk, it's like trains with lasers".

Boom, 6 months later, California Steampunk Convention, run by her mother, with a fake history about her steampunkness.

FML.

tl;dr steampunk stole from a little Chinese girl

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by Delkaetre

One of the things about Steampunk is that it's usually alternative history, retrofuture.

THIS.

I'm confused. Isn't the whole genre of steampunk, and cyberpunk, centered around the outcasts of each scenario anyway?
So you get a world in which technology is still steam-powered, and the good guys are always from the working classes, as far as I've seen.
Hell, the standard framework for a cyberpunk story is some 'lowlife' by society's standard living in an 1984-or-Brave-New-Worl-type society. And in steampunk you get some outcast inventor or orphaned young person trying to make the world bright; not some capitalist slave-owner.

So why target steampunk? There's steampunk and then there's victorian. What do you think is the difference between them then? According to me it was that steampunk is a raggedy use of victorian fashion, which kinda means it's a proletarian appropriation of it.

[Angelic Dissonance]

Originally Posted by Saya

If dressing as a Nazi is dressing as a racist (is an armband racist at all?), why wouldn't dressing like a Victorian be like dressing like a wealthy white woman/man who benefited from a society that greatly oppressed minorities not be something similar? Its not on par with dressing like a genocidal fuckhead but its silly to deny that Steampunk fashion is heavily borrowed from that era and also deny that the Victorians in general were racist douche bags. Its not really a question of whether the person wearing it is racist, but in a world where racism still exists no matter how much we'd like to pretend differently, its good to think critically about how one presents oneself and if thats in line with the individual's beliefs. If it is in line and its not important to you, fine, the whole point was just to think about it.

Not that I'm deeply troubled by any of this, I really don't feel too strongly about it; but I'm pretty sure that the point of being a Nazi is to feel superior and generally anti-semitic, therefore racist. I'm sure you could do it for fun and not be racist at all, if you wanted. But a steampunk enthusiast who has any real enthusiasm would probably rather dress in rugged pants and thick-soled boots with brass goggles on and a cheap pocketwatch. Rich people aren't exciting. Being a captain and engineer aboard your own airship is. Being a sky pirate with ray guns who steals windsheilds for profit is exciting. Anyway, if you wear black eyeliner and heavy make-up, does that make you a slut? A lot of people say they won't let their daughters wear make-up because it's slutty. If you wear a ball cap, do you like baseball? Who cares! And if you wear leather, are you a sadistic gangster or a ruthless theif? What about a trench coat? How many people would think I would shoot up my high school if I wore mine every day? Do I give a fuck? NO!!!! I'LL WEAR WHATEVER I GOD-DAMN PLEASE!!!! And the devil take anyone who says different. I'm a guy, I wear eyeliner to work. Am I gay? No. Do I want to try to look like a female, or alternatively, Micheal Jackson? No. Just food for thought.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Angelic Dissonance

Not that I'm deeply troubled by any of this, I really don't feel too strongly about it; but I'm pretty sure that the point of being a Nazi is to feel superior and generally anti-semitic, therefore racist. I'm sure you could do it for fun and not be racist at all, if you wanted. But a steampunk enthusiast who has any real enthusiasm would probably rather dress in rugged pants and thick-soled boots with brass goggles on and a cheap pocketwatch. Rich people aren't exciting. Being a captain and engineer aboard your own airship is. Being a sky pirate with ray guns who steals windsheilds for profit is exciting. Anyway, if you wear black eyeliner and heavy make-up, does that make you a slut? A lot of people say they won't let their daughters wear make-up because it's slutty. If you wear a ball cap, do you like baseball? Who cares! And if you wear leather, are you a sadistic gangster or a ruthless theif? What about a trench coat? How many people would think I would shoot up my high school if I wore mine every day? Do I give a fuck? NO!!!! I'LL WEAR WHATEVER I GOD-DAMN PLEASE!!!! And the devil take anyone who says different. I'm a guy, I wear eyeliner to work. Am I gay? No. Do I want to try to look like a female, or alternatively, Micheal Jackson? No. Just food for thought.

Absolutely no one is saying no one should dress as steampunk (well, except the people who concede that it is a stupid fashion), its just something to think about. For example, some feminists don't shave their legs because its a stupid double standard that women should have shaved legs otherwise they are disgusting, while men don't have to shave any body hair at all. But most of these feminists are fine with feminists who do shave their legs, at the most you just see civil discussions as to why each woman will or will not shave their legs. No one gets offended everytime they see a pair of shaved legs. I'm guess I'm too used to this kind of discussion where everyone is just trying to be thoughtful about what they do, I'm not sure why you're getting so offended since no one is telling you what to do.

[Angelic Dissonance]

I'm sorry I sound offended, I'm not. You simply can't hear my intonation because I am a faceless computer zombie and possible pedophile. Wow, ....emoticons almost seem useful now. Anyway, it's just chat.

[Angelic Dissonance]

Basically all threads are gay. But don't you feel so much better now that you've contributed to something entirely inconsequential?

[Angelic Dissonance]

I enjoy long walks anywhere. There's no beach in Kentucky. Anyway,

























































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































































yep.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by forgot my password

never saw you lookin' so lovely as you did tonight..................................

No! NOT CHRIS DE BURGH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!