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Old 05-17-2012, 05:16 PM   #51
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How exactly are you defining "embracing your heritage"? If you define it as looking to your family's past to find the why behind the things your family does then sure go ahead. If you define it as claiming I am thing thing because a small aspect of it plays a part in my life then no, that would be fucking dumb.

By the way I do find it interesting that you focused in on food and not other traditions, why is it that some people don't view culinary tradition the way they view other traditions?
The point I'm making is this. Even though there have been some heavy Irish influence in my family, it was never that important. We're not catholic anymore. We do tend to eat some fairly Irish dishes because that's just what grandma made and there was yodeling (but I'm not sure if that's really Irish).

The thing is, I've just always found it weird that white Americans do their best to learn about this heritage that simply didn't really matter that much. My Irish heritage isn't something that's necessary for me to consider as important.

I'm pretty prejudiced about the reasons and motivations behind white Americans trying to trace out their heritage as if somehow it's going to make them unique apart from other Americans or at worst a fetishization(sp) of a culture that they have very very little in connection with.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #52
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I would say that you downplay your culture a bit too much, though.
The point I think we're trying to collectively convey, is that caring about racial heritage to the fractions when it didn't influence your upbringing is too patronizing, but that is because white people (you know in what context I'm using that word) put too little importance in cultural heritage.
In that, your lack of care is also in line with the little importance America has to culture. It either becomes frivolous like a kitschy 'folk' painting you happen to carry around, an accessory, or it becomes nonessential in a world you perceive to be neutral but in reality is the hegemonic order of a particular cultural set of values.
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You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
real classy
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:26 PM   #53
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Well AO I guess that's just it, I'm not seeking an identity or new traditions to start. I'm just looking to understand the reasoning behind things that I already do, not because I want to be able to explain or share them with others but just because I've always wondered why we do the things we do, and I mean that both specifically about my family and our traditions as well as in a much broader sense about people and their actions in general, I guess it's why I bounced around so much between anthropology, sociology, and psychology.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:28 PM   #54
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By the way, Jaye, I might not like the reasons you made this thread, but this is by far one of the most interesting discussions anyone has brought (even if by accident) to the forum at least this week.
We had a similar one to this this very same month but that one was too inflammatory; this one is a tad more critical.
I like that.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:28 PM   #55
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I would say that you downplay your culture a bit too much, though.
The point I think we're trying to collectively convey, is that caring about racial heritage to the fractions when it didn't influence your upbringing is too patronizing, but that is because white people (you know in what context I'm using that word) put too little importance in cultural heritage.
In that, your lack of care is also in line with the little importance America has to culture. It either becomes frivolous like a kitschy 'folk' painting you happen to carry around, an accessory, or it becomes nonessential in a world you perceive to be neutral but in reality is the hegemonic order of a particular cultural set of values.
Yeah, I am guilty of that. I play my heritage down something fierce, but you actually articulated why I do it very well. What makes this interesting in regards to racial roots is that this is something I can pretty much turn on and off. Being that I have that privilege, I feel that participating in say... St. Patrick's Day is fetishization. I can be Irish or American AT WILL. Certain people can't even do that.

However, I do think there's a misconception that I think the world is this sort of culturally neutral place. I don't particularly think it is.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:29 PM   #56
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That's why if Jaye had been raised in a Swedish home, s/he'd be Swedish, but I highly doubt s/he was immanently influenced to a point of identifying as a Swede/Cherokee/French Canadian/Czech/et cetera
Okay, so what you're saying here is that even though I'm pround of my very diverse cultural background, I'm going to identify the most with what I was exposed to the most, which were mostly the Cherokee and Irish traditions on my mom's side of the family and the primarily Polish and Czech traditions on my dad's side (i.e. the two-week long Christmas celebrations with petka (Polish mincemeat cake) and klatzches (Czech orange turnovers) and that sort of thing). That makes sense, but I'm still wearing my tartan tie to the Celtic Festival. Okay.

Oh, and I confused you with the Irish Alan. Sorry. (My great-grandmother was very Irish and very opinionated).

Oh, and Solumina, et al. Food is very much a part of culture. I grew up on an Army post. Our back yard always looked like a summit committee of the U.N. A lot of our neighbors were first generation Americans, who joined the Army out of loyalty to their new country, but still kept their traditions. So we had great pot lucks, because our neighbors were Swahili, New Guinean, German, British, Native American, Hispanic, Hawaiian, Japanese, Thai and Korean. And being outside of their cultural context did not make them any less ethnic. They simply shared it with others. (For example, our Hawaiian neighbors created a Hawaiian club on post, the Native Americans had dances, and our Korean neighbors opened up a restaurant on post to share Korean food and culture with others). You don't lose your ethnicity just because you can't always live in community. You take it with you, celebrate it the best way you can, and share it with others.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:36 PM   #57
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And being outside of their cultural context did not make them any less ethnic... They simply shared it with others. You don't lose your ethnicity just because you can't always live in community.
You seem to think that a 'cultural context' is another word for 'country.'
It's not. That is not what I - and I'm sure I can safely say we - are not talking about when we talk about being a part of the culture one claims to be. It's about how you relate with the rest of the world and what devices you were given to cope with it. Catholic charity is very different than Protestant charity, and through that there are some commonalities between the Irish and Latin Americans that even Anglos don't have. Equally the Latin American identity is not defined by any phenotype but by our common historical baggage as colonies, and Caribbean colonies sometimes can be considered Latin America and sometimes they're too different. All these things are because a culture is how one copes with the world and how one understand it through what lens; not what bloodline one carries.
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real classy
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:43 PM   #58
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Thanks for that, Alan.
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Old 05-17-2012, 05:43 PM   #59
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I agree, I would also like to say that while these things (and many others) help make you who you are you shouldn't define yourself by them. Strict definitions, at least in the context of cultural identity, can very limiting and are often completely arbitrary, leaving them essentially meaningless but still able to cause harm, which is a pretty awful combination.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:06 PM   #60
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However, I do think there's a misconception that I think the world is this sort of culturally neutral place. I don't particularly think it is.
I agree with you there. I hope that we never get to the point where we become so neutral or homogenized that we lose our traditions and lose touch with our base roots. Part of the reason I started this thread is that I happen to be proud of my diverse cultural background, because I can pretty much live anyplace and enjoy people of various cultures. (I live in a primarily Hispanic neighborhood right now and I love the culture. I used to live in a neighborhood of mostly refugees, and the cultural diversity was fantastic). But that's part of what the great Melting Pot is all about. If it works, we are unified in our diversity. And we are so lucky to have so many cultures thrown into the pot, because we get exposed other cultures. I hope, therefore, that this thread will allow people to consider their culture and ethnicity and just be proud of it, and that it will spark some interest in other cultures, too. That's why I love to study different cultures, because every culture, whether Hispanic, Hawaiian, Oriental, Native American or European has its own unique history, mythos, music, food, etc. I wish more people would look into their historicity and take pride in it.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:08 PM   #61
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I wonder if part of it is trying to get away from white guilt. There was a picture going around on Tumblr a while ago of a man who was lynched, and when talking about the story of the man, the writer pointed out that it was done in the fifties, realistically it was our grandparents who did shit like that. Go back further and they were slave owners and colonizers. I have heard white people tell aboriginals that they shouldn't make them feel guilty because their great grandparents are from Europe and weren't around to take their land, as if there was just one time we oppressed aboriginals and it was a really long time ago. White American and Canadian history is genocidal and racist, but in Europe where we believe it to be whitey whiteville we couldn't have been bad.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:12 PM   #62
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I wonder if part of it is trying to get away from white guilt. There was a picture going around on Tumblr a while ago of a man who was lynched, and when talking about the story of the man, the writer pointed out that it was done in the fifties, realistically it was our grandparents who did shit like that. Go back further and they were slave owners and colonizers. I have heard white people tell aboriginals that they shouldn't make them feel guilty because their great grandparents are from Europe and weren't around to take their land, as if there was just one time we oppressed aboriginals and it was a really long time ago. White American and Canadian history is genocidal and racist, but in Europe where we believe it to be whitey whiteville we couldn't have been bad.
No. Stop reading my mind.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:32 PM   #63
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Most likely because of how widespread customary foods have become. I can literally walk down the street and order Vietnamese food made to my liking by a 17 year old white girl from Wisconsin. Traditional foods no longer mean much anymore.
WOOHOO! FROM WISCONSIN!

With that outburst of Wisconsin pride it has just caused me to consider something. Before the United States, people weren't united together by their country they were united by their race. The story of Cyrano De Bergerac mentioned and highlighted the fact that in France the race known as the Gascons were looked down upon. The UK is an obvious example of this since you have conflicts between the Irish, the Scottish, the Welsh, the Saxons, and the Normans(probably missing a bunch).

When the United States came around, so did the concept of Nationalism and from that point on you had not pride in one's race but pride in one's Nation.

I suppose I probably should have brought this up earlier since it would have been relevant in my consideration of my earlier posts, but I didn't immediately think of it. Funny how a random mention of Wisconsin can remind one of such things.

So it's with that in mind I say that it is not that racism didn't exist, it just never was a problem before, and wasn't in the way of progressing into a new Philosophy of Nationalism!


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I wonder if part of it is trying to get away from white guilt. There was a picture going around on Tumblr a while ago of a man who was lynched, and when talking about the story of the man, the writer pointed out that it was done in the fifties, realistically it was our grandparents who did shit like that. Go back further and they were slave owners and colonizers. I have heard white people tell aboriginals that they shouldn't make them feel guilty because their great grandparents are from Europe and weren't around to take their land, as if there was just one time we oppressed aboriginals and it was a really long time ago. White American and Canadian history is genocidal and racist, but in Europe where we believe it to be whitey whiteville we couldn't have been bad.
Thats a thing I hear about a lot that I really hate, white guilt. That people should feel guilty for something their ancestors or simply people who shared a race with their ancestors did, when they weren't even alive for it. If anything it's a form of racism in itself.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:33 PM   #64
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I'd just like to announce that I'm going to turn on my culture switch, now. I'm a first generation American, but I want to celebrate where I come from. I was raised by my mother's family, who are all Canadian, which makes me Canadian because I was raised in their culture.

Update: While I am extremely proud of my heritage, I don't feel any different. Am I doing something wrong?
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:35 PM   #65
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By the way, Jaye, I might not like the reasons you made this thread, but this is by far one of the most interesting discussions anyone has brought (even if by accident) to the forum at least this week.
We had a similar one to this this very same month but that one was too inflammatory; this one is a tad more critical.
I like that.
Well, thanks. If it isn't useful for anything more than 'food for thought' at least it's useful for something.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:40 PM   #66
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In a way you could say it's not a melting pot, it's a volcano. With a grand eruption the lava of change has engulfed each nation and caused the people all over the world to melt together into a sort of nationalistic igneous rock united in their nations. Starting here in the United States and spreading around the world and creating it anew.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:40 PM   #67
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Thats a thing I hear about a lot that I really hate, white guilt. That people should feel guilty for something their ancestors or simply people who shared a race with their ancestors did, when they weren't even alive for it. If anything it's a form of racism in itself.
Reverse racism does not exist. You are not supposed to feel guilty. It's called white guilt because white people DO feel unreasonably guilty when they are confronted with racism and become defensive by trying to justify it.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:42 PM   #68
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WOOHOO! FROM WISCONSIN!

On that note I've just considered something. Before the United States, people weren't united together by their country they were united by their race. The story of Cyrano De Bergerac mentioned and highlighted the fact that in France the race known as the Gascons were looked down upon. The UK is an obvious example of this since you have conflicts between the Irish, the Scottish, the Welsh, the Saxons, and the Normans.

When the United States came around, so did the concept of Nationalism and from that point on you had not pride in one's race but pride in one's Nation.
NOPE. The European powers had nationalism, to the point where they were racing each other to colonize the New World first, and then they fought each other over colonies, many wars in Canada before Confederation was between the English and the French fighting land. There is a long long history of nationalism in Europe, hell part of the reason Martin Luther wasn't killed after the Diet Of Worms was because German nobility was getting worked up over paying taxes to a Pope in Italy. The British were reluctant to accept that the earth revolved around the sun because that would mean the earth isn't the centre of the universe, and ENGLAND MIGHT NOT BE THE CENTRE OF THE WORLD. Ancient Romans were nationalist! Hebrews were nationalists! Egyptians were nationalist! The Japanese were nationalist for a very long time! Nationalism is not new or an American invention.

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So it's with that in mind I say that it is not that racism didn't exist, it just never was a problem before, and wasn't in the way of progressing into a new Philosophy of Nationalism!
You do know that one of the first things Colombus wrote about aboriginals was how they'd make great slaves and would be easy to conquer, right? Or that racism existed in Europe, what with the Crusades, the persecution of the Roma and Jews?
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Thats a thing I hear about a lot that I really hate, white guilt. That people should feel guilty for something their ancestors or simply people who shared a race with their ancestors did, when they weren't even alive for it. If anything it's a form of racism in itself.
White people cannot be the victims of racism, its not a form of racism. Its white people feeling defensive when they shouldn't because when we talk about racism they immediately take it personally.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:42 PM   #69
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Thats a thing I hear about a lot that I really hate, white guilt. That people should feel guilty for something their ancestors or simply people who shared a race with their ancestors did, when they weren't even alive for it. If anything it's a form of racism in itself.
http://whatever.scalzi.com/2012/05/1...ting-there-is/

You need this, Renatus.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:49 PM   #70
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Dude. I swear I just had this idea yesterday: An RPG in which NPCs reacted to you different based on what character you created. Saya pointed out Oghren's (from dragon age) homophobia, or that there were slight differences based on race, but not a great deal different.

And then I ranted about how much I hate bioware for mass effect.
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Old 05-17-2012, 06:53 PM   #71
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Reverse racism does not exist. You are not supposed to feel guilty. It's called white guilt because white people DO feel unreasonably guilty when they are confronted with racism and become defensive by trying to justify it.
Oh well, I don't have much experience with it anyways, my mother's side is neither white nor was it around for the civil rights movement(I think), ad my father's side was here in Wisconsin the whole time, we have racism here but we've always been friendly enough here that our civil rights movement, was started by a white Catholic priest.... and he did it all while looking cool in sunglasses.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:03 PM   #72
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Blah scratch that last statement about my mothers side not being white. It's actually kinda tricky being half Colombian and trying to classify one's skin color. My skin really isn't white but more of a natural tan even at it's palest while indoors Though often when I get a certain kind of lighting on my skin I look very pale white, slightly blindingly white to my own eyes, it's kinda weird though its probably just a result of staying indoors. That combined with the fact that I'm from Washington leaves me with an extra reason to hate twilight.

On one hand my ancestors are from Europe, on the other for some reason the classification of "Hispanic" exists.

So there goes a new question. With the consideration of the fact that Spain is part of Europe and Europe is considered white, WHAT IS HISPANIC!?
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:45 AM   #73
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I want to talk about shifting cultural identity. The point that I am curious about is a general point where someone can justifiably change their identity. Like Dances with Wolves, Ferngully, or for you young kids: Avatar and The Last Samurai.

I am not sure the criteria for someone to identify with one culture or another because I am conflicted about my own shift. I do not reasonably think I could live in Afghanistan for 5 years and identify as pashtoon after that time, but I strongly feel that the military's specific culture has strongly influenced how I behave and perceive the world after the same amount of time. I begrudgingly identify as a soldier in a sense greater then my current occupation. Is this because one is further from my starting point then another, or because one requires a specific experience that the other does not? Or a combination of the two?

In short, is Kevin Costner white Lakota? I want to say yes because I like the idea that some cultures are racially inclusive, but I highly suspect that such a thought would deeply offend Native Americans.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:58 AM   #74
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Where in Louisiana are you? My family is in a slow transition to Lafayette, I spent all of December there.
Lake Charles. Oh man I haven't been to Lafayette in a good minute.

Saya: Haha Cajuns are awesome, no?
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:07 AM   #75
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Also, I really hate to compare the two as I did, but I want understand and define what makes ethnicity transferable and identifiable. I use them as examples because I understand one intimately and the other from an outsider's perspective and I feel that context is what would make it easier for me to get the perspective I'm looking for.

They both have their own language, humor, social problems, values, history, traditions, perceptions, and behavior. I appologize if somebody is offended by my comparison.
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