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General General questions and meet 'n greet and welcome! |
06-04-2012, 07:38 AM
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#51
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Smexyville, Colorado
Posts: 2,424
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Some people enjoy working assembly lines, your point?
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Be Kind
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06-04-2012, 02:32 PM
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#52
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Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 2,932
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
Except it was...
Okay cool next question. No I'm not allowed another question?
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Was it the same question or was it a new question then? You can't say both at the same time. It's contradictory. Or rather, as everyone here knows, it's backpedaling, with you trying to accommodate what you were saying with what you are now saying, hoping this time something will stick and hoping that we're stupid enough to forget what you've said already.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KissMeDeadly
You fucking people [war veterans] are only a step below entitled rich kids, the only difference being you had to do and witness horrible things, instead of being given everything.
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real classy
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06-04-2012, 04:32 PM
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#53
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acharis
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Thank you, I really enjoyed that article. Its really put me off in the past how white academics try to pass off anyone with criticisms of the sex industry as prudes and WoC who are forced or pressured into sex work oppress themselves.
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06-05-2012, 06:35 AM
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#54
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan
Was it the same question or was it a new question then? You can't say both at the same time. It's contradictory. Or rather, as everyone here knows, it's backpedaling, with you trying to accommodate what you were saying with what you are now saying, hoping this time something will stick and hoping that we're stupid enough to forget what you've said already.
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It's very simple, when I said
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
What if it's not done out of desperation?
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You know
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Originally Posted by Elystan
Where the coercion factor is no greater than economic coercion to get a job
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Then anything said about such scenarios would be inapplicable to scenarios in which were, you know, done out of desperation or there was coercion involved beyond the basic need need to find a source of income.
Because if you know, the person selling their body was really having their body sold by somebody else, or if they had no alternative, then that wouldn't really be what I was asking you guys about was it?
What is it I'm saying now? What was it I was saying before? If you hold off on being deliberately offended long enough to actually look you might find me buried under a pile of straw men before actually having a chance to make any kind of statement of my own.
In case you couldn't tell, this
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
the problem is that as soon as you receive payment for your sexuality then you're a pitiable victim of the patriarchy and definitely being coerced by a pimp or a gang of nasty criminal men. Ask any of the posters here, they have read articles about it and are experts.
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Was in fact a satire of your views, rather than a statement of mine.
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06-23-2012, 03:09 AM
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#55
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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06-23-2012, 08:13 AM
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#56
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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06-23-2012, 01:17 PM
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#57
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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We could have had it all, trollin' in the deeeeeeep.
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06-23-2012, 03:25 PM
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#58
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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Be less susceptible to being trolled, maybe?
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06-23-2012, 03:48 PM
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#59
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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You should see the trolls we used to have, toots. You're small potatoes.
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06-23-2012, 11:53 PM
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#60
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
Thank you, I really enjoyed that article. Its really put me off in the past how white academics try to pass off anyone with criticisms of the sex industry as prudes and WoC who are forced or pressured into sex work oppress themselves.
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Yeah. I'm aware that I do need to know more about the industry from the workers themselves, as I get a lot of criticism for my mistrust of the sex industry... but it's not that I make value judgments or subscribe to stereotypes.
I do feel uncomfortable that womens bodies are seen as a commodity to be bought and sold, but am aware that that's a personal opinion and sex work is a flexible well paid job that some women can live with. Financial security and stable accommodation is pretty empowering even in cases where the work might not be.
But it's that until sex workers have equal protection under the law, are free from unfair working conditions/coercion (physical, verbal or financial), and the content doesn't feed misogyny - the industry doesn't deserve the glowing term "empowering" that is often applied, or the handwaves of its current state.
It pisses me off that any time I have a concern or find something problematic, that's automatically whorephobic.
I was talking to my boyfriend about it. The conversation started when I pointed out the brothel across from where we were eating, and that I'd been made aware of it from previous human trafficking convictions against the owner a few years back. (In the paper. Thankfully I think that doesn't go on there anymore.)
I said something along the lines of not seeing how it was completely empowering, and he was saying 'what about the intellectually disabled people who need the service?' I didn't get into it, preferring to go on with our evening rather than get heavy, but that kind of bothered me.
At least he didn't say anything like 'reducing r@pe', otherwise it would have got real.
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06-24-2012, 04:23 AM
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#62
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acharis
I said something along the lines of not seeing how it was completely empowering.
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Well it isn't, but the fact remains that it's a comparatively lucrative option for many women, and while it's a very small proportion who take it up, in absoloute terms it is the reality for many thousands.
If you're uncomfortable with the idea that womens bodies can be sold (although one could argue that they retain their bodies and instead perform a service), is that not then an indictment of the women who choose to do so? That is kind of whorephobic, but if that's how you feel you should own it maybe?
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06-24-2012, 06:11 AM
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#63
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 729
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
Well it isn't, but the fact remains that it's a comparatively lucrative option for many women, and while it's a very small proportion who take it up, in absoloute terms it is the reality for many thousands.
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Lucrative for the ones that are paid well. I still don't think it'd be worth it for the workplaces that are unregulated, or in places where sex work is illegal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
If you're uncomfortable with the idea that womens bodies can be sold (although one could argue that they retain their bodies and instead perform a service), is that not then an indictment of the women who choose to do so? That is kind of whorephobic, but if that's how you feel you should own it maybe?
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If you bothered to read my responses in your other thread, you'd remember that I already made that distinction. I had said that I believe the women are paid to render a service, and as such should not be treated as if they had been bought (ie fewer rights around selective consent and bodily autonomy).
Unfortunately despite that, a lot of the time womens bodies are treated as commodities and public property. (Even Jane in your own Whorephobia 101 link had to make the distinction that just because someone is sex worker doesn't mean they'll have sex with anyone.) Paid access to women just reinforces that attitude, also that having sex with another persons body is a right. You also assume that the choice isn't subject to any pressure.
And thanks bro. I will.
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06-25-2012, 03:53 AM
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#64
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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No there is of course economic pressure and "a whore will have sex with anyone" is the kind of prejudice which is just really absurd if you think about it for even a second (another one is people assume all prostitutes go through high volumes of men on a weekly basis).
But I'm glad you took a stance there.
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06-25-2012, 05:03 AM
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#65
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Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 729
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It is absurd, and insulting. But still there is a widespread myth in our culture that " a sex worker can't be *****", or that violence or exploitation either doesn't exist - or is an acceptable hazard of the job. Until shit like this gets fixed, I don't believe that the sex industry isn't problematic.
Stance? I'm simply saying that while I understand people need to support themselves... as long as women and their bodies are treated the way they are (even when money isn't involved), I will mistrust the fuck out of them being commodified.
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07-11-2012, 02:41 PM
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#66
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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New theory on where part of the stigma comes from:
In the time before feminism, a womans options were far more limited. There was little way for her to acquire any kind of financial independence and the only social role available to her was motherhood, which entailed ownership of her very person by her husband. Selling sex would have been one of only a few ways to acquire any financial independence at all, and if she managed to earn a living thereby she wouldn't even have had to submit to marriage. Of course an 'independent' woman (yes yes brothels and madams and such but that may have been preferable for some to the one-on-one tyranny of domestic life) was a violation of the natural order, and therefore to be loathed and reviled.
Would explain a few things, but not everything. Then again now that I think about it, denying her agency in the way you 'liberal' types like to do is a direct attack on the independence she would have thereby been able to assert. Since the subject of sex workers was never a central issue in traditional feminism, old prejudices would not have been challenged and society not made cognizant of them. Extramarital sex too was no longer the near-exclusive province of prostitutes (an unverified assumption that it was before, but even Byron paid for it) and that topic too took a life of its own. A hangover of language still has us using the word 'whore' to shame a promiscuous woman. Remaining largely hidden as ever, the prostitute is still an unknown quantity to most, not daring to declare what she is and being muffled when she tries to.
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07-12-2012, 01:05 AM
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#67
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Join Date: May 2012
Location: NYC
Posts: 36
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There must be someone who only dance for living, nothing else
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07-12-2012, 03:56 PM
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#68
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Saya
You should see the trolls we used to have, toots. You're small potatoes.
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Fuck man, Elystian is candied yams. Helpmann and I engaged in a three month long TROLLWAR. ETS's black vampire thread trolls from beyond the grave. Kontan trolled Voltaire absorbed a weaker troll's soul and brought TRMK to it's knees.
I photoshopped Deadman's head onto the Blob, engaged in a multi-forum Kung Fu battle, and got Ben Langer to chug more than ten epic boners.
And don't even get me started on SSJ Goku or Duckman.
What does Elystian even DO? I have to keep staring at the screen to remind myself it even exists.
I am disappoint son.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by KontanKarite
I promote radical change through my actions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger
I have chugged more than ten epic boners.
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07-12-2012, 04:14 PM
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#69
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Despanan
What does Elystian even DO?
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Asked people what they thought of prostitution
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07-12-2012, 11:49 PM
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#70
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,887
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
Asked people what they thought of prostitution
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PFFFFTTTTT!!!!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KontanKarite
I promote radical change through my actions.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Lahnger
I have chugged more than ten epic boners.
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07-13-2012, 01:52 PM
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#71
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bliss
Posts: 4,374
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This whole thread could die. Perhaps it is just over used or whatever, but apparently it is easy and there isn't anything more interesting around.
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I Like Cheese!
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07-14-2012, 04:30 AM
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#72
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Catch
This whole thread could die. Perhaps it is just over used or whatever, but apparently it is easy and there isn't anything more interesting around.
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I don't know, the overwhelming positive reaction the topic received and the productive discussion resulting therefrom have convinced me that you guys need constant updates on my views as they develop.
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07-14-2012, 08:57 PM
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#73
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Bliss
Posts: 4,374
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Alright. That's what you say.
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I Like Cheese!
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07-16-2012, 06:02 PM
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#74
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Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: Hell, it's other people & both of them are you
Posts: 1,001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elystan
I don't know, the overwhelming positive reaction the topic received and the productive discussion resulting therefrom have convinced me that you guys need constant updates on my views as they develop.
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We live for this very reason.
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07-16-2012, 06:57 PM
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#75
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Don't we all need more mansplaining in our lives?
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