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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right."
-H.L. Menken |
09-11-2008, 03:44 AM
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#76
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 1,021
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Stern? If you find communism so appealing why don't you live in china or north korea?
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09-11-2008, 04:07 AM
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#77
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Auckland
Posts: 627
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtificialOne
Stern? If you find communism so appealing why don't you live in china or north korea?
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China is actually more capitalist.
And North Korea also isn't communist.
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09-11-2008, 01:07 PM
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#78
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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There has yet to be a country that follows true Communism. All the supposed "Communist" countries in history have used a modified form in one way or another, and all, except Cuba, have been ridiculously corrupt examples of Communism (Cuba being only somewhat corrupt).
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09-11-2008, 01:47 PM
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#79
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 1,750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity
There has yet to be a country that follows true Communism. All the supposed "Communist" countries in history have used a modified form in one way or another, and all, except Cuba, have been ridiculously corrupt examples of Communism (Cuba being only somewhat corrupt).
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Cuba makes me smile. It's viewed by many as the "poorest country" and yet they have some of the best doctors in the world living in Cuba.
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Because before too long there'll be nothing left alive, not a creature on the land or sea, a bird in the sky. They'll be shot, harpooned, eaten, and hunted too much, vivisected by the clever men who prove that there's no such things as a fair world with live and let live. The Royal family go hunting, what an example to give to the people they lead and that don't include me, I've seen enough pain and torture of those who can't speak...
- Tough Shit, Mickey by Conflict
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09-11-2008, 01:57 PM
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#80
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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Yea, even they have better health care than the U.S. And we talk down about them so much.
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09-11-2008, 02:05 PM
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#81
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 1,750
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PortraitOfSanity
Yea, even they have better health care than the U.S. And we talk down about them so much.
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It's because they won't tell us how to make such awesome Cigars
__________________
Because before too long there'll be nothing left alive, not a creature on the land or sea, a bird in the sky. They'll be shot, harpooned, eaten, and hunted too much, vivisected by the clever men who prove that there's no such things as a fair world with live and let live. The Royal family go hunting, what an example to give to the people they lead and that don't include me, I've seen enough pain and torture of those who can't speak...
- Tough Shit, Mickey by Conflict
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09-11-2008, 04:14 PM
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#82
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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They need the best doctors in the world, to treat the malnutrition, the starvation, the pregnancies and all the other myriad of problems from a third world nation.
Also, they are exporting them to Venezuela in order to assist Hugito on his "socialization" of that once proud country.
But I would love to visit Cuba. I had several Cuban cigars, and belive me guys, they are not that special. But we all love forbidden things...
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09-11-2008, 04:16 PM
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#83
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Cumbria, United Kingdom
Posts: 1,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killslowly
They need the best doctors in the world, to treat the malnutrition, the starvation, the pregnancies and all the other myriad of problems from a third world nation.
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I was under the impression that most of them specialise in things like plastic surgery, and state of the art stuff....
__________________
'The difference between false memories and true ones is the same as for jewels: it is always the false ones that look the most real, the most brilliant.' - Salvador Dali
Pie Jesu domine..... Donna eis requiem - *thwack*
'To become truly immortal, a work of art must escape all human limits: logic and common sense will only interfere. But once these barriers are broken, it will enter the realms of childhood visions and dreams.' - Giorgio de Chirico
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09-11-2008, 08:20 PM
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#84
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killslowly
They need the best doctors in the world, to treat the malnutrition, the starvation, the pregnancies and all the other myriad of problems from a third world nation.
Also, they are exporting them to Venezuela in order to assist Hugito on his "socialization" of that once proud country.
But I would love to visit Cuba. I had several Cuban cigars, and belive me guys, they are not that special. But we all love forbidden things...
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Cuba isn't starving, the poor in Cuba are like 100 times better off under Castro than they were under Batista and if you disagree you're just a fool.
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09-11-2008, 11:56 PM
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#85
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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I agree that I am not well versed in Batista's time. So I step down of my podium when I am not capable of giving appropriate information on a subject.
As far as specialization LiUsAiDh all I know is that Venezuela and Cuba have an agreement to assist each other with whatever they can provide. Venezuela gives oil and other resources, and Cuba gives doctors for the Venezuelan interior and whatever they can provide.
So I guess is all about perspective in a sense. But that CHE was a complete jack ass and responsible for the deaths of dozens of prisoners, and that was a pathetic guerrilla leader and/or fighter (as seen in Africa and Bolivia) these things cannot be disputed (^_^).
Love,
Uncle Jerry
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09-12-2008, 09:13 AM
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#86
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killslowly
I agree that I am not well versed in Batista's time. So I step down of my podium when I am not capable of giving appropriate information on a subject.
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Then how is it you claim to know so much about Che? Che made his name fighting batista.
Quote:
So I guess is all about perspective in a sense. But that CHE was a complete jack ass and responsible for the deaths of dozens of prisoners, and that was a pathetic guerrilla leader and/or fighter (as seen in Africa and Bolivia) these things cannot be disputed (^_^).
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...except they can. Considering you claim to know nothing of batista but make such broad statements against Che.
You really should read up on your history before bashing someone, especially someone who is revered in many parts of the world.
In fact, in Cuba, they have a saying 'Be like Che'. Its what they tell children when they are growing up, when they have to make tough decisions.
'Be like Che.'
You can bash him all you want, but remember this - begrudgers like yourself will disappear long before his legacy, and the good he did for his people will.
My advise is to watch some of the history channels documentaries on him and Castro. One of the best, produced by the CBC was The Secret Life Of Che. Che graduated top of his class from medical school and served as a medic under Castro, who graduated top of his class in law school. Che provided free medical aid to villagers throughout South American when others wouldn't. He spent many years helping people as a doctor even before he stood up for what he believed in through armed resistance.
You might also check out Motorcycle Diaries.
I'm quite looking forward to the new biopic movie about him starring Benicio Del Toro - it won best film at Cannes and has received standing ovations from all the audiences who have viewed it so far.
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09-12-2008, 02:39 PM
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#87
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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LOL, sure thing Capn.
Just because I do not know about batista, does not mean I do not know about el che. What I do know about batista, I've read from Che's writtings, and the blowjob books written about him, painting him as the hero that people think he is.
Let me find some books for you to read so that you can get an overall picture about che. All I am saying is that he is not the saint that he is portrayed to be.
I've read the Motorcycle diaries. So what.
In north Korea, they also have sayings like that. You know, be like the immortal leader, so what. The cult of personality surrounding Che is one of misinformation, propaganda and idiocy.
And I totally love the attack mode you take. Is not okay to be graceful and admit ignorance? Time for the vultures to circle and eat at the flesh of the weak LOL.
And how can you dispute his failings at guerrilla warfare in Africa and Bolivia? I would love to hear that.
Thanks for the entertainment,
Uncle Jerry (versed and practiced in low intensity conflict (it is called asymetrical warfare now), counter-terrorism and battlefield surveillance among other things, like recruitment of sources, interrogation and counterintelligence operations).
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09-12-2008, 02:41 PM
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#88
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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Sorry Capn, I forgot.
You are right. He will be remembered a long time after I am dead. Some will remember him as a hero, some will remember him as a butcher, and some will not even know who he was. That is how life works. Big deal.
Look at Jesus H. Christ. Same thing with him.
Cheers Mate!!!
Uncle Jerry
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09-12-2008, 06:29 PM
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#89
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 9,548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by killslowly
So I guess is all about perspective in a sense. But that CHE was a complete jack ass and responsible for the deaths of dozens of prisoners, and that was a pathetic guerrilla leader and/or fighter (as seen in Africa and Bolivia) these things cannot be disputed (^_^).
Love,
Uncle Jerry
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Che is accused of killing prisoners thought to be spies and informants, in America treason is also punishable by death. And I'm really really struggling thinking of one world leader in history that had no blood on his hands at all.
And also, because he failed in his African and Bolivian attempts, that makes him a bad person how?
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09-12-2008, 08:37 PM
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#90
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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Hey, what is this. People go around looking for other postings and just reply for arguments sake? Is this a place of divivsiveness and clicks? Do people band themselves and attack? Very Darwinian, survival of the fittest I guess.
First of all, CHESITO used to summarily execute the suspects, usually with no evidence of any wrong doing. In the US, we give them due process. Besides, we have not executed spies or traitors for decades.
That makes him a bad person. All other despots, fascist, and revolutionaries (with the exception of Mahatma) have killed. But we are talking about Guevara de la Serna in this posting.
3rd one success out of three campaigns/operations makes you into a pathetic revolutionary and/or guerrillero. So he was just bad all around.
His ideals of freedom as turned Cuba into an isolated island where people get arrested for trying to escape, a place where tourists see and go to places in which regular Cubans are barred from going.
So much for freedom!!!
Love you,
El tio Jerry
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09-12-2008, 09:38 PM
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#91
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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I fail to see how 2 failures make him into a "pathetic revolutionary". Especially when the forces he was fighting in both cases were fully backed by the U.S. and the CIA.
Do you really believe that we give our political prisoners due process? I suggest you think about that one for a little bit, the military base where we keep them is even located in the country we're discussing!
Stop trying to make Cuba look like some totalitarian fascist state, because it's a tired, completely ridiculous argument.
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09-12-2008, 10:28 PM
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#92
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
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So a one out of three success is failure?
Then what about Vietnam? The Korean War? Iraq?
Wow, Americas own track record, not even as revolutionaries but as an imperial force, makes America a failure by your own standards. A worse failure than Che I might add.
If you going to hold killing the enemy against a politician in times of war, well then, again, I say look at Americas track record on that. Where should I begin when it comes to all the people America is responsible for killing. WW2 - dropping two nuclear bombs on civilian cities killing hundreds of thousands. Yeah, thats ok then, but killing a few touts in your own ranks you take issue with.
Another skewed American viewpoint. You spend so much time trying to figure out why you dislike someone that you obviously have a cultural bias toward you forget that the people you support are doing far worse.
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09-12-2008, 11:49 PM
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#93
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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US bashing
Hey cap'n,
Please point me to the discusion where we discuss the evil of nuking innocent civilians, or the firebombing of Germany and I will gladly support your statements and agree with your train of thought.
As far as myself having a cultural bias? I don't know. I said before that he was my hero. I was raised in his city of birth, forged by similar cultural Menes and exposed to similar ideals and social norms. But that is no excuse to be uninformed and carrying the blind banner of idealism and one sided dogma.
As a matter of fact, I am not even sure or understand where you guys get off as thinking that I am all pro America. My country has it's problems, and so do it's people. But is easy to be a bigot and lump all Americans as belonging to a group of arrogant war mongers too in love with their guns and their "empire". Too easy to be a prejudicial fool, and label others as what you are yourself: a one side minded prick. See? It is easy to insult.
And I don't know, but 33% success = failure in anybodies book.
And to the one talking about Gitmo: those are not political prisoners. Those guys are terrorists, bomb makers and an embarrasment to Islam and the Prophet Mohammad PIN (if he existed at all) (and I did "talk" to a bunch of them). And even then, that part of my country's sad chapter is finally coming to an end. What me and Saya were talking about were spies in my country.
But I do want to thank all of you for teaching me how people communicate here: with personal attacks, diversion of issues and nany nany boo boos.q
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09-13-2008, 02:50 AM
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#94
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
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Let's not deviate from the real issues here:
Che wasn't a particularly nice guy. His ideals are fine, it seems, but I don't think that anyone should be idolising a staunchly racist scumbag, regardless of how politically relevant he and his actions are.
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09-13-2008, 04:56 AM
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#95
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Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Seoul, South Korea
Posts: 26
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Thank you JCC. You basically said what I wanted to say in like one paragraph! I appreciate it.
I guess since I am new here people do not get where I am coming from, but I hope that they will. I am all for freedom, equality, diversity, and on top of all of that: honesty and respect.
And we all know that armed struggle brings death and sadness and destruction. I am very proud of the Cuban struggle, and the group of people who took that freaking boat from Mexico and landed in Cuba and single handedly kicked some ass for the "people". I am not proud though, of how they brought communism to a people, under a completely different banner of freedom and peace. Many Cubans did not know what the hell was going on (this is from the lips of Cuban refugees, not me).
I just hate the idolatry of some, the worship of the human, and the uplifting of the corrupt.
People paint me as some sort of nut who hates Cuba. By all means, I love Cuban people. But if it was so great, then nobody would be dying in the 90 miles it takes to rubber raft themselves toward Florida.
And I also appreciate the difference of opinions. This freaking world would be a very dull place to live in if we all thought the same thing. 1984 is a wonderful book (at least in my bookshelf) and it paints a great picture of group think and lack of tenacious thought process.
I am even happy for the Capn and POS for their firm beliefs. I just hate one sided information gathering that only paints one side of a multifaceted problem.
So with this here post, I relieve myself form the CHE posting, and leave the more "informed" people to do their bidding.
Hasta la victoria (de los privilegiados) siempre,
Another Che basher (^_^)
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