So, I was reading the 'Jesus Saves' thread...

[gothicusmaximus]

And although I agree that weepingblood is unstable and more than a little bit hilarious, I was somewhat perplexed that one of the major elements of the assault on Christianity into which that thread soon degenerated was the insistence that Christian mythology is 'silly' by people who are religious themselves.

I find that, typically, when I ask someone why they believe in the Christian god, they'll either fail to produce a coherent answer, usually indicating that they were indoctrinated in the Christian faith at a young age and never questioned the veracity of its tenants, or claim to have undergone a personal experience which somehow convinced them of the Christian cosmology. Given that the former answer is one which the pagans who frequent this forum are unlikely to provide, I'd like to ask them, out of genuine curiosity: how did you come to hold your pagan beliefs? What happened to convince you that they're any less 'silly' than Christian theology?

[honeythorn]

Firstly I don't think christian beliefs are " silly " I just don't follow them as I feel many of them are not right for me. I have already answered your question in another thread, and I quote myself thus:

I chose paganism because of my love and reverence for nature, and the feeling within that there is some sort of higher force which to me, is intrinsically and irrevocably connected at it's root to the natural world. I do believe it is a dual force ( light & dark, male & female, life & death ect ) but you can't have two ends with nothing in the middle, so it is also all the grey inbetween the two. I haven't chosen a pantheon to work with, I do not feel the need to yet, and I may not ever feel the want. Only time will tell.

I do understand though that there are many who do feel the need to have a visual image of deity to work with, and so choose an ancient set of god/ess images , mythologies and the knowledge contained within them to provide focus and meaning to each day.

I find myself drawn to looking further Druidy, and also to the Celtic pantheon and mythologies. I don't know if I will work with them or not though.

You don't need religion or any sort of devil / evil figure to instill morals and decency into a person , or frighten them into mental and spiritual rigidity for fear of dipleasing whatever deity it is, and ending up in some horrendous form of existence after death.

I have found with paganism that there is a vast amount of basic common sense, and no need for any sort of rulebook, saying if you do such and such wrong then <insert deity> will be angry, and you will end up wherever for the rest of eternity .

If you mess up then it's you who has to deal with it and it's consequences. Try to put it right as best you can and move on.

Those are just my own personal beliefs , and I feel that I identify with paganism most strongly. I was reading yesterday about Shintoism , which looks very interesting indeed. I will be looking further into that.

Also why are you asking pagans specifically? There appear to be about as many pagans as there are christians on here. If anything there seem to be more agnostic and atheist people .

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Also why are you asking pagans specifically? There appear to be about as many pagans as there are christians on here. If anything there seem to be more agnostic and atheist people .

I'm not addressing those who are Atheists like myself, as we believe all religious beliefs are equally wrong, whereas christians and pagans choose one mythology over the other as 'truer', and I'm curious as to why. However, as I said in the original post, I've already asked this same question of many Christians- not to mention that on gnet specifically I rarely see Christians attacking Paganism, only Pagans attacking Christianity.

[Tha Duckman]

I gotta agree with Gothicus on this one. All religions are pretty retarded.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

I'm not addressing those who are Atheists like myself, as we believe all religious beliefs are equally wrong, whereas christians and pagans choose one mythology over the other as 'truer', and I'm curious as to why. However, as I said in the original post, I've already asked this same question of many Christians- not to mention that on gnet specifically I rarely see Christians attacking Paganism, only Pagans attacking Christianity.

Well I don't know who you've been talking to, but I have yet to come across any pagan who believes their faith to be " truer " than any other, except for themselves. And they don't proselytise what they believe. It isn't a case of one being truer than the other. Things that I personally have said ,were never meant as an " attack " on Christianity as a whole. I merely disagree with a good many of it's tenets and doctrines, and stated why I do not follow it.

I cannot automatically dislike someone for being a Christian or identifying with Christianity, that just isn't me. I will however, react to people who tell me or suggest that Paganism is " evil " and has something to do with the Christian idea of the devil, because that is just plain inaccurate and inflammatory. I simply inform, firmly and as calmly as I can, that this is not true. Certainly people as individuals can be vile and so on, but that is just people and has nothing to do with what faith they follow.

Christianity has it's good points and bad, good people and bad, just like Paganism. I would never tell you that any form of paganism is , as a collection of earth based faiths more " true " or in some way perfect than Christianity because that definitely isn't the case. Everything always needs to be improved in some way. In all faiths.

If it works for you and doesn't bother anyone else then great, I have no problem. If you don't believe in any form of deity fine. I really couldn't care less.


In the past on G.net, I personally have not seen a great amount of mudslinging going on between Pagans and Christians, without there being a reason for it, such as an inflammatory comment. I have seen far more "attacks" on Christianity from the Atheists of the site ( I do not mean specifically you, just in case you were wondering ).

As I've said before, no one will know until they're dead, and when you are there probably won't be a lot you can do about it anyway.

[Sinless]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

And although I agree that weepingblood is unstable and more than a little bit hilarious, I was somewhat perplexed that one of the major elements of the assault on Christianity into which that thread soon degenerated was the insistence that Christian mythology is 'silly' by people who are religious themselves.

I apologize if I upset anyone besides weepingblood. I do not hate Christianity, and I never will. I do, however, strongly dislike weepingblood. I was assaulting her, not christianity in general. Some of my best friends are christians, but they don't bother me.

[Zavulon]

too bad the Romans couldn't feed those lions with all the christians and eradicated them before they infested the planet with their insipid views and dogma.

[honeythorn]

Ok I think that is harsh and unessecary . Not all christians are door beating , bible bashing , overtly evangelical beasts.

[Mir]

Originally Posted by Zavulon

too bad the Romans couldn't feed those lions with all the christians and eradicated them before they infested the planet with their insipid views and dogma.

What the fuck are you talking about? The Roman Emperor/Officials used Christianity as the unifying factor to stop their Empire from crumbling to pieces.

[Zavulon]

Originally Posted by Mir

What the fuck are you talking about? The Roman Emperor/Officials used Christianity as the unifying factor to stop their Empire from crumbling to pieces.

Yea when that dipshit Constantine converted to it, the Lions feasted on hebrews and christians before that... duhhhhhh

[Mir]

He converted because that was his only way out. He was by NO means a real believer. There were just too many to throw to the Lions. The lions can only eat so many.

[gothicusmaximus]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Well I don't know who you've been talking to, but I have yet to come across any pagan who believes their faith to be " truer " than any other, except for themselves.

So you're saying that your gods or forces or whatever only exist 'for you'? That's interesting, I really have never heard anything like that before. Usually, with divine forces, people either assert that they exist and influence the universe in a substantial way or that they just aren't real.

Originally Posted by Mir

He converted because that was his only way out. He was by NO means a real believer. There were just too many to throw to the Lions. The lions can only eat so many.

Nah man, he totally believed in Jesus. His mother was a Christian. He saw visions of the cross. What lead you to believe he was peer pressured into it?

[Tha Duckman]

You don't KNOW, man! You weren't THERE, man!

[ForgetThisLostLenore]

I'm personally agnostic. I believe in a higher being, but not one of any specific religion. They could all be right, or they could all be wrong.

I really don't have a problem with any specific religion. As long as they don't come preaching about how I'm going to hell, I'm fine. But the preaching doesn't cause me to despise the religion itself, I just find the person to be a bit annoying.

[Sinless]

Originally Posted by ForgetThisLostLenore

As long as they don't come preaching about how I'm going to hell, I'm fine.

I've had that happen to me once. My friend Laura and her family are extremely religious christians. They aren't half as annoying as weepingblood though. Anyways, I was eating dinner with them, and all of a sudden, Laura's mom says to me, "You know Alyssa, goths like you who worship the devil will end up going to hell instead of paradise." I'm like, "WTF?! I don't worship Satan, I don't even believe in him!" It was kind of amusing and funny, but I was a bit hurt as well. I managed to laugh it off.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus

So you're saying that your gods or forces or whatever only exist 'for you'? That's interesting, I really have never heard anything like that before. Usually, with divine forces, people either assert that they exist and influence the universe in a substantial way or that they just aren't real.

I believe the personification of deity is personal yes. For me it has no distinct image as of yet. I don't feel I need one right now.

I do believe it exists in general, but I don't think it can really affect you unless you allow it or ask it to.

You, as an atheist do not believe in deity correct? So for you it is not needed, wanted, and has no particular effect, since you do not or will not attribute any possible " spiritual " occurrences or experiences whatever they may be ( as they would be seen by those who do believe it exists ) to deity. For you, it basically doesn't exist, and has no impact or meaning in your life, and you get along fine without it. Which , if it works for you and makes you happy, then great.


I personally believe it exists and has it's root, strength and "power" in the natural world. That belief is shared by many pagan faiths, and I feel a strong connection and identification with the beliefs of a good few pagan traditions ( many share similar traditions and mythologies between them ) . I feel I need to revere the earth that provides me with the means to live ( air, food, water ect ), I feel I need to do it in more ways than doing my best to re-cycle and not use so many chemicals ect. I have a want in me to do something of a spiritual nature to show my own thanks, and Paganism fits very well with that. It makes more sense to me personally, than Christianitiy's seemingly endless bowing and scraping to a man who died 2000+ years ago, and to the exclusion ( and often intolerance ) of all other beliefs because someone somewhere said it was wrong . If it works for Christians? fine, but it doesn't feel right for me.

[Bella Sophia]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

Ok I think that is harsh and unessecary . Not all christians are door beating , bible bashing , overtly evangelical beasts.

thank you. Someone with brains

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

For you, it basically doesn't exist, and has no impact or meaning in your life, and you get along fine without it.

But in this, you're still saying the omnipermeating entity you believe in does exist, only that we as atheists don't recur to it. What makes you know it exists? What's the difference between that evidence and YHVH's?

[dark_dragon_of_ice]

Originally Posted by Mir

What the fuck are you talking about? The Roman Emperor/Officials used Christianity as the unifying factor to stop their Empire from crumbling to pieces.

Lot of good that did.

[honeythorn]

Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian

But in this, you're still saying the omnipermeating entity you believe in does exist, only that we as atheists don't recur to it. What makes you know it exists? What's the difference between that evidence and YHVH's?

I didn't say I " know " I believe. I would never claim to know. Nor would I ask you to believe if you don't want to. It is something I personally feel is there, so I revere it as I feel I need to.

I don't have any evidence for you. I can't make this thing appear magically to you as proof. It is one of those things you either believe in or not. I don't think it something that science or anything else will ever be able to " prove " . At least not in our lifetimes. But I guess we will all just have to wait and see.

If you don't think it exists then fine, makes no odds to me. I don't see why I should have to prove anything to anyone, since I make no claims of knowing wether deity exists. I simply believe it does.


I personally think that the "god" of christianity, of all deities in fact, is basically the same "force" . Human beings have simply given it names, numbers, faces, stories, to try and better understand why it is there, what it does, wants and is ect..

[KontanKarite]

Isn't that YHWY? Whatever.

What difference does it make? A divine entity is going to do nothing for anyone. We are all products of our own design. Our own efforts reflect the miracle that is us. We are the gods. We are the divine.

Human beings have shown an ability to change the world in a matter of days. Martin Luthor King. Hitler. Bush. Ghandi. All of these people and even more have moved more than mountains. They've moved hearts and minds.

What was the last great miracle by anyone's deity? A man who died on a cross? A man who inspired hearts and minds?

The red sea no longer parts. The waters no longer turn to blood. The first born are no longer mysteriously killed. We have not SEEN any act of any deity in so long. What do you have now? Hurricane Katrina? The Big One? These are all but acts of the very planet that we inhabit.

The angels' trumpets are silent. But our voices can be heard for eons.

[Godslayer Jillian]

Fine, change "know" with "believe".
Why would you believe it? By what did you base it?
I can't think someone would just out of the blue say "know what? I'm going to start worshiping my ground and my sky and my food because there's definitely something in it" without exterior influences.
To start with, why worship them? Why give them a human emotion?

[honeythorn]

Because I choose to and feel a need to. It isn't something that can be explained in a clincal manner. I don't give it a human emotion as such. I also do not " worship " I don't pray to trees and rocks and wheat ect. I simply give thanks in my own small way, and feel a "spiritual " ( I can't think of any other way to describe it ) satisfaction. I feel as though my action, whatever it may have been, has in some way been recieved and understood.

Do I know for certain that it has? No. And I can't prove it to anyone either. But it helps me get on with my days. I feel less lost when I am alone.

You may see that way of thinking as a delusion of some sort. If so then fine, good for you. Either way it won't affect you or anyone else at the end of the day.

[honeythorn]

Ok I am going to bed now so, I'll check whatever deriding replies I may possibly have in the morning. Ta ta..

[Godslayer Jillian]

Originally Posted by honeythorn

I simply give thanks in my own small way, and feel a "spiritual "

I also feel grateful of the simple quality of being and believe in Pirsig's metaphysics of quality.
That doesn't make me a pagan; it makes me a human.