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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right."
-H.L. Menken |
View Poll Results: Should any political/country flags be displayed in churches or places of worship?
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Yes, they should.
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5 |
21.74% |
No, they shouldn't.
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11 |
47.83% |
No opinion.
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7 |
30.43% |
07-29-2008, 01:17 AM
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#1
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
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Does the American flag belong in church?
http://tinyurl.com/5fvsjo
New York - I've attended church weekly all my life, and virtually every congregation with whom I've worshipped displays an American flag. It often stands close to the communion table, probably a church's most sacred spot. Some denominations even recite the Pledge of Allegiance – multiple times. One church I visited in the Midwest began Sunday School with the Pledge but apparently lacked faith it would stick. We interrupted morning worship with another recitation.
All in all, American Christians seem as devoted to their government as Ruth was to Naomi. But should they be? Do either the flag or the Pledge have any place in the Lord's house? Is congregational commitment to the republic for which these emblems stand consistent with Biblical Christianity? Is political power?
Throughout history, Christians have usually been on the wrong side of government. The Roman Empire tortured Jesus Christ to death, then criminalized his friends. Later regimes continued that tradition. They routinely hunted down, imprisoned, tortured, and slaughtered people who clung to their Lord instead of the law. Something like 70 million Christians have died for their faith since AD 33.
The church thought to resolve this by grabbing government's reins. But the same brutality soon surfaced. Believers weren't safe unless they practiced precisely as their brothers in power dictated.
Incredibly, Christians suffered the same tortures and death at the hands of "Christian" rulers as they had from others. At various times in various nations, "Christians" have persecuted their fellows for acknowledging the pope, refusing to acknowledge the pope, baptizing adults instead of babies, baptizing babies instead of adults, etc. Tragically, Christians high on power forsake the Ten Commandments and the golden rule as quickly as anyone else.
The trouble doesn't lie with Christianity but with power. The two have always been at odds. Political power is a synonym for "physical force," for bending people to government's will regardless of their inclinations, interests, or welfare. But Christianity is love – power's antidote. Anyone who sincerely follows Jesus Christ will never try to compel others – because he didn't. Jesus sought to persuade by word and example, loving men so much that he let them judge for themselves the truth of his teachings.
No wonder the state wars against so potent an adversary. Its antagonism compelled America's Founding Fathers to decree, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof." The Founders weren't only insulating government from Christianity, as today's secularists insist; they also hoped to protect Christianity from the poison of political power. A free society flourishes because of its families, schools, marketplace and churches. If these become mere outposts of government, if the state subsumes them so that they advance its agenda rather than curtail its power, the country sinks into totalitarianism.
How disastrous, then, that many American Christians are too busy courting government to curb it. Preachers vie to endorse political candidates, cozying up to them rather than calling them to account. Churches no longer disdain money taken from people via taxation; instead, they complain that their handouts under the Faith-Based Initiative weren't big enough.
And many support a war in Iraq that has killed tens of thousands and put civilians – including Iraq's brave but tiny Christian community – in great tribulation. Sadly, I have yet to hear any American church pray for Iraqis as they endure the persecution, poverty, and pain this war has inflicted. But congregants who are Americans first and Christians second often ask God to bless our troops on Sundays.
If they think about it at all, most believers probably see the flag and Pledge as tokens of affection for their country. In reality, both symbolize an infatuation with government. Churches hope to change circumstances through political force when Jesus called us to change hearts and minds with his message. We cheat ourselves, trusting the state's inferior and transitory power instead of the Almighty.
We also enhance rather than counter the state's supremacy. Our "patriotism" is really nationalism: unquestioning and enthusiastic support of political power. Christians eager to render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's have the rest of the week to do so. But the things rendered should not include our allegiance. That belongs to God. Why taint our worship by pledging it to the state's flag instead?
On trial for his life, Jesus Christ asserted his divinity while denying that his kingdom was of this world. It's ironic that Americans who accept the first truth devoutly reject the latter.
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07-29-2008, 01:20 AM
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#2
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
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I liked this article. I posted it as I was curious what others thought about it.
They only do that in America. If you go to worship service in European countries, you will not find a national flag flying anywhere inside places of worship. I always thought myself that it was a bit offensive, putting it next to the cross and other religious items as you see commonly displayed in American churches, but until now I haven't heard anyone comment on it publicly (well, other than myself).
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07-29-2008, 03:45 AM
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#3
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: the concrete and steel beehive of Southern California
Posts: 7,449
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I think the Episcopalians believe in duty to country, and in Romans 13 Paul writes:
"Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you."
There is traditional support for a nations leaders by organized, money based churches as the governments in return allow the churches to not pay taxes as a reward for keeping the masses in line.
When the Iraq war began, many television evangelists began preaching "support the president" and "support our troops", but I think they were also supporting a war against Islam between the lines.
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07-29-2008, 05:52 AM
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#4
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 1,472
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It seems like icon worship to me, but it's up to the church really. If the community wants it, it's their right.
__________________
The Beginner's Quick Guide to Goth: 1 2 3 4 5
"Now some of you may encounter the devil's bargain if you get that far. Any old soul is worth saving at least to a priest, but not every soul is worth buying. So you can take the offer as a compliment."
-William S. Burroughs
You're not entitled to your opinion.
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07-29-2008, 11:31 AM
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#5
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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Agree, it's not a public building, therefore they have the right to display whatever they want. (well, ALMOST anything...)
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07-29-2008, 12:04 PM
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#6
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Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Cali
Posts: 8,030
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I've never been to a church that prominently displayed a flag, some of them had flags outside on a flag poll but not inside or anything. I think that a flag would be a bit out of place in most churches, then again I'm not exactly much of a church goer.
__________________
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07-29-2008, 12:06 PM
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#7
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 4,678
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Whatever, people can put their own things in their own property any time they want.
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07-30-2008, 07:37 PM
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#8
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Join Date: May 2008
Location: Sugar Hill
Posts: 3,887
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...
There's no 'This Question is Retarded' option on the poll.
That makes me sad.
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07-31-2008, 03:34 PM
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#9
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Cider country
Posts: 83
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I thought it was a perfectly good question, and I voted "no they shouldn't".
Granted, I'm not American and I haven't attended church in ages, but I still don't see why the state should have that much influence on religion. In a more awake state I could probably come out with a far more coherent answer.
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07-31-2008, 06:33 PM
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#10
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Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Osaka, Japan
Posts: 1,472
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It's not a matter of the state having influence on religion, it's a matter of the churches being enamored of the state. There's no law that says you must display a flag in church or anything like that.
If the clergy and congregation want a flag, why shouldn't they have a flag?
__________________
The Beginner's Quick Guide to Goth: 1 2 3 4 5
"Now some of you may encounter the devil's bargain if you get that far. Any old soul is worth saving at least to a priest, but not every soul is worth buying. So you can take the offer as a compliment."
-William S. Burroughs
You're not entitled to your opinion.
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08-05-2008, 05:18 AM
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#11
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
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I guess it all depends on the country and the flag your flying.
What if a Russian Orthodox church had wanted to fly a USSR flag in their local churches in the 1950's?
What if a Mosque today wants to fly a Palestinian flag out front/in their place of worship?
I mean, I could see people supporting/being against flying flags for many reasons, which begs the question - why put one there to begin with?
Many great philosophers argue you can never win an argument based solely on religion or politics. That being said it would seem by dragging politics into religion by flying a flag you create an environment of conflict which is bound to cause controversy. This, in my opinion, has no place in any place of worship as it detracts from the message that should be sent from such places.
An American flag, or any other flag for that matter, has no more place in a place of worship than a banner supporting your local football team. By putting one there you start a mentality of this flag versus all others. You make people who worship there feel out of place if they don't support the flag displayed. You create an us versus them dynamic in which people are forced on some level to take sides defending that flag as part of their religious beliefs.
I think that defeats the primary purpose of a house of worship.
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08-05-2008, 12:46 PM
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#12
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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That's your opinion because you're an Irish Catholic. Now, I'm not trying to make an ad hominem attack.
What I'm saying is that you must remember that in America, religion and patriotism have been very linked since the second revival. In America there's pentecostal and presbyterian and baptist and I don't know what else, but they are always talking about how good America is.
Being an American is as important to them as being a Christian. Hell, many would say they're American which by default makes them good Christians, because oh how God loves Americans!
There's not much desire for the separation of the church and state among conservatives such as the church this thread talks about.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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08-05-2008, 02:31 PM
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#13
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: elsewhere
Posts: 2,015
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I'm of the mind that flags and pledges of allegiance should not be in a place of worship. It doesn't seem appropriate. Church and state should be separated. It's too much power concentrated in one place if they're not.
__________________
Twinkle, twinkle, little bat
How I wonder where you're at.
Up above the world you fly
Like a tea-tray in the sky.
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08-05-2008, 03:45 PM
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#14
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci
I'm of the mind that flags and pledges of allegiance should not be in a place of worship. It doesn't seem appropriate. Church and state should be separated. It's too much power concentrated in one place if they're not.
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It's not a question of making the church have the flag, it's a question of whether the church should be allowed to decide for themselves to have a flag on their own private property. You can't disallow that freedom simply because you disagree with it. A church is private property, and therefore has the right to display what they want.
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08-05-2008, 03:56 PM
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#15
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 1,835
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Just as long as they don't start saying, "Well, America is in our churches, so Christianity should be in your science classes!" I couldn't care less what they did during their services.
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08-06-2008, 09:25 AM
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#16
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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I remember as of a few years ago (I haven't checked lately, or heard any indication otherwise) that there was still the law on the books in Illinois that made it illegal to teach evolution in a public school, but that it was simply ignored.
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08-08-2008, 10:22 PM
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#17
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Vineland, NJ
Posts: 22
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A church should be able to fly a national flag if they want to, but government offices should not be able to display religious symbols. I think it's disguting when I see these cases where courthouse are displaying the Ten Commandments and crap like that. America has a constitutional separation of church and state. Religion does not belong in government.
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08-09-2008, 12:29 AM
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#18
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 4,587
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Many people here seem to be against a government displaying religious symbols but support a religion displaying government symbols.
I think both are bad.
I stated this above, but maybe this will help, think of it like this...
Anyone see the film Jesus Camp? The right wing nuts training their kids in church to hate Arabs? Having them kiss a cardboard printout of bush?
Anyone remember the interview prior to the Iraq war where bush said 'God' told him to invade Iraq? Then bush in a church, with the flag behind him, justifying the war?
Allowing politicians to use the church as a backdrop is just as bad as letting the government display religious symbols. It's all the one. You can't seperate one side, then say its ok for the other side to mix the two. In the end you still end up with church and state mixed together.
As a person who is looking at this from outside America, I would hate to show up to a church for sunday services and see a large US flag flying while the Priest/Minister/Pastor sat there and defended the Iraq war, or reasons they shouldn't teach evolution in public schools, or any other government related matter.
If I go to a church, I want to hear about religion, not a pseudo-mix of religion and politics thinly veiled as a religious pre-text.
It's bad if it is mixed, either way. It ends up with the same problem - people equating God and his teachings with that of a government or political party, which is the farthest thing from what should be happening in any place of worship.
It automatically isolates people of the same religion who do not share the same political views. It tells people either you back our political views, else there is no place for you in our religion.
Do you really support that mentality in a setting which is supposed to be about love and inclusion?
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08-09-2008, 12:53 AM
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#19
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Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: El Paso, Texas/ Ciudad Juarez, Chihuahua
Posts: 9,203
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We don't support that mentality. Frankly I bet a lot of us are creeped out by it.
But it doesn't come down to what's proper and what's improper.
It comes down to what's public and what's private. A church is a private institution, and therefore can do whatever it wants. A town hall, being by the people, from the people, and for the people, cannot have a preferential treatment to a particular religion.
__________________
"No theory, no ready-made system, no book that has ever been written will save the world.
I cleave to no system. I am a true seeker."
-Mikhail Bakunin
Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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08-13-2008, 06:06 AM
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#20
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,629
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It's a matter of personal taste but I don't think it should be displayed in church,because the kids that end up being dragged to service each time,well they might not be old enough to seperate one from the other.
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08-13-2008, 07:34 AM
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#21
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Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Chicago, Illinois
Posts: 2,670
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I grew up Catholic before I gave up on Christianity and became an Atheist. There was indeed an American flag in the church. I cannot recall the priests even acknowledging that it was there during a service. We never sang God Bless America or anything. The point is, it's private property. You have the right to display anything that is not inherently illegal (child porn for example) on your private property. Restrictions apply if it's questionable and it's within public view (i.e. signs near the curb) but an American flag in the church is neither.
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08-18-2008, 02:26 PM
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#22
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Raxacoricofallapatorius
Posts: 1,750
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I think religion and government shouldn't be mixed even if it's something so simple as this. These two institutions are both completely screwed enough, mixing them will yield no good.
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08-18-2008, 05:08 PM
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#23
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Nowhere
Posts: 1,835
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CptSternn
Many people here seem to be against a government displaying religious symbols but support a religion displaying government symbols.
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I don't think it's a matter of support. We just don't care what churches (which are private institutions) do during their services (unless of course it's something like human or animal sacrifices...), but at the same time we do care what the government (which is by definition a public institution) does at all times.
Or, at least, we're supposed to.
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