Gypsy and Nomad Rights

[Catch]

Originally Posted by Corpsey

Catch quoted your previous post and misinterpreted what you were saying. Something about empathy and showing it towards even those who feel it is okay to kill everyone.

Thank you Corpsey, well summarized.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Originally Posted by DoubleK

Ah, so Catch is being bloody retarded again.

Business as usual I see.

Is it ever any other way?

[JCC]

Actually Catch is one of the only voices of reason in this thread.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Your kidding right? She has no knowledge of what she's fighting for, she is just an ignorant person blindly spouting off her sweet dream world, where everyone is a good person, and disputing it as an opinion that everyone else should have.

[JCC]

And everyone else is a bigot. I'll take her idealistic view over that, cheers.

[Catch]

Originally Posted by JCC

And everyone else is a bigot. I'll take her idealistic view over that, cheers.

Well stated... I think.

[CuckooTuli]

To be honest, talking travellers is a bit like talking council estates (I guess the US equivalent would be trailer parks). There's a high rate of crime and disturbance, as there often is in such areas (or lifestyles, given that the cultural space they inhabit is by its very nature mobile).

Are council estate dwellers scummers by definition? Of course not - unless you ARE in fact a bigot, pure and simple. Trouble is, bigotry is rarely pure OR simple within most cultural contexts, otherwise it would've been eradicated along with slavery and the fourteen-hour workday. So there's that same problem of the crime/poverty correlation, leading to certain suspicions which are not without experiential basis.. and so it goes in the grand circle-jerk of "which came first? - the chicken or the car-theft".

[Catch]

It is true though. Traveling or moving around does not imply ill character.

Thinking about it, in one of my classes a teacher was referencing the biblical exiles of people and suspicion of strangers. My family is military and traveled a lot. They are upwardly mobile, yuppie type people. In exile people leave their family's home, I was staying with them in Texas. Just because I was a stranger to them does not mean anything. In fact, most of the students and teachers there came from out of state to attend classes. It was kind of considered an upward maneuver for gaining success in a way that is rather elitist. Anyway, the whole statement backfired on itself on several levels.

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Catch

It is true though. Traveling or moving around does not imply ill character.

Thinking about it, in one of my classes a teacher was referencing the biblical exiles of people and suspicion of strangers. My family is military and traveled a lot. They are upwardly mobile, yuppie type people. In exile people leave their family's home, I was staying with them in Texas. Just because I was a stranger to them does not mean anything. In fact, most of the students and teachers there came from out of state to attend classes. It was kind of considered an upward maneuver for gaining success in a way that is rather elitist. Anyway, the whole statement backfired on itself on several levels.

You fucking moron Cpt. Sternn's argument has piss all to do with genocide and moving around and everything to do with Travelers being fucking criminals.

Like KK I don't have a side right now because I know nothing about the Travelers and live in the States, so I've never met one. What I do know is that all of your arguments are built around logical fallacies and asshattery and I want you to stop it, now.

You probably know about as much about the Travelers as me.

[MissCheyenne]

I don't even know what this argument is about. Simple fact is that Travellers/Gypsies are just normal, everyday people and just like all the other everyday, normal people in the world, some of them are twats and some of them are not. Being a Traveller or Gypsy doesn't automatically make them twats, they just happen to be twats that are Travellers/Gypsies. It really is THAT easy.

[JCC]

I think the English hatred of Travellers largely relates to a general mistrust of anything which doesn't conform to traditional notions of property and use of property, as well as the fact that they're Irish. Why the Irish hate them so much is probably just to do with the actions of a few being conflated to a representation of the many.

[MissCheyenne]

^ Tv shows like 'My big fat gypsy wedding' and the like don't exactly help the Travellers image either.

[CptSternn]

Ok, here is another summary for ye all...

Travellers have no fixed abode. They live in caravans, which if you look back at the pix on the previous page are what Americans call campers.

The problem starts with this - they have no where to legally park them so they just park them on the sides of motorways, in public car parks (parking lots), at public parks, or on some poor mans farm.

They travel in groups, and just move in to wherever they can find enough room to park, which doesn't take much. They are squatting illegally. They know it. They don't care. They too try and argue it's their 'culture'.

If in say America my 'culture' was I parked a camper on your driveway and started just living there, would you not get irked? If driving home from work on the highway you had trash blowing around, kids running around in the middle of the highway (where cars re going 70MPH) and were forced to see dozens of campers just parked there on the hard shoulder, would you be ok with that?

They go somewhere and live there until the local police get the proper paperwork to move them. It takes a couple months in Ireland, and they know this. They then move on to another area. In the meantime they steal everything that is not bolted down. Most recently here in Ireland they started stealing the guard rails on the sides of the motorway (highway) and statues from parks, all of which they melt down and sell for scrap. Collecting scrap is one of their biggest industries. A majority of the 'scrap' is not scrap, but stuff they steal from the place where they are parked, until they are moved.

Their other big industry is rubbish, or should I say garbage. In Ireland we pay a lot for what Americans call trash pick-up. About $500 a year per house. Travellers go around to building sites and estates and go door to door offering to remove rubbish. They then take the rubbish and dump it in the local forest, illegally. This is another huge problem in Ireland, but ironically it is caused by some of the same people who complain against it.

Granted not all of them are criminals. Ones that become settled do integrate into normal society. But then again some just get a home and still go out and engage in illegal activity. The problem is when 90% of all crime in many parts of Ireland can all be directly linked to travellers and a handful of families, it is a statistic you cannot ignore.

[Mr.Doobie]

From what it sounds like, the only person who has any idea what they're talking about is CptSternn and everyone else is merely looking through bright, rainbow colored glasses.

I bet most of you think The Hell's Angels are just a bunch of harmless, party-loving rascals.

[Alan]

Terrible rhetoric. You're not condemning Hell's Angels, you're condemning motorcycle clubs as a whole.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by Mr.Doobie

From what it sounds like, the only person who has any idea what they're talking about is CptSternn and everyone else is merely looking through bright, rainbow colored glasses.

I bet most of you think The Hell's Angels are just a bunch of harmless, party-loving rascals.

What the fuck would you know about it?

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by JCC

What the fuck would you know about it?

What I know is that CptSternn is giving sources and typing out long, fact filled posts that tell a lot about Traveler life and give first hand experiences and accounts, while everyone else continues to just sit back and tell him he's wrong and meeeeeeeen and genocidal and bigoted and the Travelers live on a cloud of beauty and love somewhere just 'cuz.

Until someone else is able to give an opposing post of equal substance, I have to say CptSternn is winning this debate, despite the fact that I continue to have no set opinion on the Travelers.

Terrible rhetoric. You're not condemning Hell's Angels, you're condemning motorcycle clubs as a whole.

...kay. I'm condemning motorcycle clubs as a whole. And...

[JCC]

So what you mean to say is that you have never met or even seen a traveller, don't have any idea what it's like living in an area with travellers and really have no basis for saying anything in this discussion at all but I am deluded because I'm not fucking INVENTING statistics like Plastic Paddy, the King of Bullshit's outlandish claims. Get the fuck out of it man, the operative word in what you said is 'heard'. You haven't experienced a thing.

[Alan]

Sternn is posting 'sources' from anti-traveller sites. It would be like taking Deadman seriously for constantly posting links to prisonplanet.
I originally was going to say it would be like if I posted links to crimes committed by black people and then made an indictment against black people as a whole, except even that would be less ridiculous because then I'd be basing my arguments on police reports and not an antitraveller site and a god damn television show.

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by JCC

So what you mean to say is that you have never met or even seen a traveller, don't have any idea what it's like living in an area with travellers and really have no basis for saying anything in this discussion at all but I am deluded because I'm not fucking INVENTING statistics like Plastic Paddy, the King of Bullshit's outlandish claims. Get the fuck out of it man, the operative word in what you said is 'heard'. You haven't experienced a thing.

If he's a Plastic Paddy who doesn't know what he's talking about how come I haven't seen anyone debunk him in a satisfying way?

If the statistics are bullshit demonstrate how and why said statistics are bullshit.

Sternn is posting 'sources' from anti-traveller sites. It would be like taking Deadman seriously for constantly posting links to prisonplanet.
I originally was going to say it would be like if I posted links to crimes committed by black people and then made an indictment against black people as a whole, except even that would be less ridiculous because then I'd be basing my arguments on police reports and not an antitraveller site and a god damn television show.

I'm not saying his sources aren't bullshit, I'm not saying he's right because I know piss-all about the Travelers, I'm saying that he is thus far winning the argument based on superior, more in-depth content, and if he's winning using biased info and obviously flawed statistics that makes you guys all the more pathetic for failing to be able to debunk said statistics and info in any way.

[Alan]

Ok, stop using the word statistics because you clearly aren't using it right. news articles aren't statistics.
And secondly, come on man. I have just explained you the situation. Would you say I'm thus far winning if I were to open a thread condemning mexicans by posting links to crimes committed by mexicans and others just called me an idiot? Would they have to post even more 'statistics' (read: news articles) about Mexicans doing something right (good luck finding an article about a Mexican helping an old lady cross the street) to win? No, because that's not their fucking point.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by JCC

So what you mean to say is that you have never met or even seen a traveller, don't have any idea what it's like living in an area with travellers and really have no basis for saying anything in this discussion at all but I am deluded because I'm not fucking INVENTING statistics like Plastic Paddy, the King of Bullshit's outlandish claims. Get the fuck out of it man, the operative word in what you said is 'heard'. You haven't experienced a thing.

Plastic paddy? Really? You are lowering yourself to name calling now?

You claim to have such intellectual prowess and the best you can come up with in this thread is throwing around racial slurs. And you wonder why the Irish are no fans of the british. What nationality will you go after next?

Just an FYI, in the UK, Paddy is on the same footing as the 'N' word in America. The british only bring it out when they feel the need to be bigots. 'Plastic Paddy' is an even more derogatory racial slur.

Why not just go the full monty and call me a Fenian? I guess that is just how you were raised sure.

[CptSternn]

Originally Posted by Alan

Sternn is posting 'sources' from anti-traveller sites. It would be like taking Deadman seriously for constantly posting links to prisonplanet.
.I originally was going to say it would be like if I posted links to crimes committed by black people and then made an indictment against black people as a whole, except even that would be less ridiculous because then I'd be basing my arguments on police reports and not an antitraveller site and a god damn television show

Excuse me? Every link I posted was from a reputable newspaper in Ireland. Most were from my own local newspapers here in Clare and the others from the Irish Times, which is like the New York Times.

You need to get your facts straight before you claim all Irish press is somehow equal to Alex Jones.

[JCC]

Originally Posted by CptSternn

Plastic paddy? Really? You are lowering yourself to name calling now?

You claim to have such intellectual prowess and the best you can come up with in this thread is throwing around racial slurs. And you wonder why the Irish are no fans of the british. What nationality will you go after next?

Just an FYI, in the UK, Paddy is on the same footing as the 'N' word in America. The british only bring it out when they feel the need to be bigots. 'Plastic Paddy' is an even more derogatory racial slur.

Why not just go the full monty and call me a Fenian? I guess that is just how you were raised sure.

My whole family's Irish. Ethnically speaking, so am I. Irish Catholic, no less. Chill. I didn't mean it in a racist way or it would be a slur on myself as well. Sorry to upset you anyway, but I notice you don't care about the bigotry of travelers being called pikeys in this thread, by people who aren't travelers themselves.

[Mr.Doobie]

Originally Posted by Alan

Ok, stop using the word statistics because you clearly aren't using it right. news articles aren't statistics.
And secondly, come on man. I have just explained you the situation. Would you say I'm thus far winning if I were to open a thread condemning mexicans by posting links to crimes committed by mexicans and others just called me an idiot? Would they have to post even more 'statistics' (read: news articles) about Mexicans doing something right (good luck finding an article about a Mexican helping an old lady cross the street) to win? No, because that's not their fucking point.

There's a difference between some obvious troll screaming "I HATE ******S" than disappearing while everyone rabblerabblerabbles behind them, and what is going on in this thread, which has been an active discussion for pages, between forum members that are seemingly respectable and intelligent. The difference is that this whole thing about the Travelers is more complicated than "The Travelers are all awesome and if you say differently you're just racist" versus "The Travelers are all crooks and if you say differently than you suck."

To me (and yes, I have spoken with more people about this than CptSternn and I've done some of my own research now), it seems like a sizable chunk of the Traveler's are crooks. However, what the problem seems to be is that the reason some of the Traveler's do all the things they're infamous for is because they have the opportunity to. Historically, socially, etc. there are a lot of things going on that make this issue, and solving it, complicated and difficult.

I believe it is worth saying that you could scan any ethnic group and find a similar sized chunk of people involved in crimes. It would just be different crimes, ones that aren't as obvious and/or aren't as "marketable" by the media. IE: Tax evasion, shoplifting, etc.

The problem with the Irish government is that it seems a lot of their efforts at "civilizing" (lol) the Travelers are based around getting them to "settle down". The problem is their ethnic group doesn't necessarily cause their crime, nor does their traveling cause their crime. The traveling certainly gives them the opportunities many people will never have in their lives. But it's individuals that decide to abuse those opportunities, and not ethnic groups.

So what do we do about the Travelers? I don't know. I doubt there is a "solution". Maybe we just have to accept that until either mankind dies, or there's some gigantic, global, awakening in thought, there will be thieving Travelers.

Alan, I basically agree with you, and any disagreement I had with you was because I was seeing your posts as gigantic hippie strawmen, and I apologize for my asshattery. Catch, you're still a moron.