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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 04-15-2008, 08:29 PM   #26
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How far from it?
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Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 04-15-2008, 10:18 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
Somalia, Catalonia, Chiapas, Fin de Siecle Paris, Eugene, the Diggers both new and old, prove this opinion of humankind is wrong.
No offense, but that's very small proof compared to, say, the other 99% of humanity, which, by your standards of proof, proves that humanity is indeed selfish, lazy, and greedy.
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Old 04-15-2008, 11:47 PM   #28
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Don't make assumptions like that.
You said humanity is greedy and lazy. I proved to you there has been incidents where anarchy has worked.
Are they not human?
Are they superior to us humans?
No. By my standards of proof, your opinion is wrong because there's been nations (using the term loosely) that aren't based around greed. Then why is it logical to assume that people are so and there's some sort of super-humans growing up in the same place at the same time rather than greed and laziness are imbued into us just as cooperation and communal living was taught to the Diggers in Great Britain?
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Quote:
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 04-16-2008, 07:35 AM   #29
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Greed and laziness aren't as prevalent on a small scale, such as in a commune, where it really is in the best interest of the person to *not* be greedy and lazy.
I also think it's not hard-wired to the same degree in everyone. I hear of lots of people with lazy housemates who don't do dishes or other cleaning and don't pay bills and such, and so the other housemate(s) are stuck with trying to clean and make it up so they don't get evicted as well. I also hear of well-working houses, but there seems to always be one person...

But it's an evolutionary advantage. If you're greedy and lazy and can ply the pity of others, you can get a share of the antelope meat without risk of being gored by it during hunting. Thus, you don't get killed before you pass your genes on.

Edit: Some people can overcome that hard-wiring, with the proper upbringing, so it could be a nature-nurture question, I guess.
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Old 04-16-2008, 05:18 PM   #30
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I'm more of an anarchist. I flirted with marxism for a while. But I got fed up with all of politics for a while. Then I discovered CRASS and boom!, that was my catalyst.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:14 PM   #31
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Hate to dig up a dead thread, but I have one thing to add. Che Guevara was a medical student, and then wound up a freedom fighter who's idea of "liberation" involved a lot of bloodshed. That should throw up a few red flags. Just a few.

Outside of that, I'm a Communist depending on what debate I'm in. I was an anarchist until I realized that anarchy and democracy aren't so far apart.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:26 PM   #32
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Wait, how's that a bad thing? You prefer a centralized abstract system where the people are less important than its collective, rather than a legitimate lawless state based on general consensus and voluntary participation?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:31 PM   #33
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Eh, I believe in a central ideal of empowering insignificance. Not really understanding the hostility, but I'll bite.

Anarchy is mob rule. Democracy is majority rule. Where exactly is the difference? True democracy isn't wholly different from anarchy at all, it's whenever a bureaucracy starts to intervene that things start to become cumbersome.

"General consensus" and "collective" are the exact same things.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:38 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ZombieG
Anarchy is mob rule.
Anarchy isn't any sort of 'rule'. That's the essence of anarchy, in the most fundamental sense.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:41 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
Anarchy isn't any sort of 'rule'. That's the essence of anarchy, in the most fundamental sense.
Yeah yeah, I've heard that all before. History proves otherwise. Mankind has always needed to adhere to some sort of central figure, and in the vast majority will do so when given the chance. Anarchy, much like pure communism, is an extremely unattainable stand-point. Mob rule will happen, as a result. In the name of a god or no god, a political idea or lack thereof. It's really inevitable.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:43 PM   #36
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True democracy is anarchy. You got that right. But none of those are mob rule. The difference between absolute democracy and anarchy (i.e. true democracy, or you work our the semantics if you don't like differentiating between "true" and "absolute") is that anarchy is not limited by the general consensus. An anarchic society is directed towards the path the majority chooses, but the minority is not coerced to accept this path.
As for general consensus and collective being the same, they're not if the general consensus is meant to imply the will of each individual while the 'collective' is an abstract body where no individual has a voice (you know, "it is for the good of the Party")
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Carlin
People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 05-09-2008, 04:54 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
True democracy is anarchy. You got that right. But none of those are mob rule. The difference between absolute democracy and anarchy (i.e. true democracy, or you work our the semantics if you don't like differentiating between "true" and "absolute") is that anarchy is not limited by the general consensus. An anarchic society is directed towards the path the majority chooses, but the minority is not coerced to accept this path.
As for general consensus and collective being the same, they're not if the general consensus is meant to imply the will of each individual while the 'collective' is an abstract body where no individual has a voice (you know, "it is for the good of the Party")
I understand what you're saying, but I've never once read about or experienced an instance where mankind was eager to coexist with people who are different, so I just can't buy the non-coerced minority bit. Any time something to that extent has been tried for, it's failed miserably because of inherent human flaws. It's not that I don't trust anarchy, it's that I don't trust it when people are in the equation. Much like everything.
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:08 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by ZombieG
Yeah yeah, I've heard that all before. History proves otherwise. Mankind has always needed to adhere to some sort of central figure, and in the vast majority will do so when given the chance. Anarchy, much like pure communism, is an extremely unattainable stand-point. Mob rule will happen, as a result. In the name of a god or no god, a political idea or lack thereof. It's really inevitable.
I wasn't saying whether anarchy is a societal system that could feasibly function, only that, conceptually, 'anarchy' and 'rule' are oppositional notions.
On the above point, I tend to agree with you-- I may simply not have possess a highly adept political mind, but whenever I ruminate as to how a stateless civilization might operate successfully, I inevitably find myself thinking "Well, if only there were these few rules..."
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Old 05-09-2008, 05:18 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gothicusmaximus
I wasn't saying whether anarchy is a societal system that could feasibly function, only that, conceptually, 'anarchy' and 'rule' are oppositional notions.
On the above point, I tend to agree with you-- I may simply not have possess a highly adept political mind, but whenever I ruminate as to how a stateless civilization might operate successfully, I inevitably find myself thinking "Well, if only there were these few rules..."
Conceptually, sure. Realistically however, it more than defeats the purpose of anarchy. There is no political belief that will empower everyone.
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Old 05-09-2008, 09:51 PM   #40
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Anarchy doesn't mean no rules. It means no ruler. It is not total chaos and violence. That idea is only attached by people's fear of not having a governing body. Above all, government is a sense of comfort from the absolute chaos that the world can be, but that does not link anarchy and chaos.

Most of the public perception of Communism, if not all, goes back to the Cold War, and the Red Scare. The United States feared having two super-powers in the world, especially one with such radically different politics. But when you get down to it, humanitarianism aside, the feats of Stalin and Lenin are baffling. In a incredibly short time, Russia went from an agricultural country to an industrial superpower. Now, obviously, their human-rights records under this rule was less than favorable, and how their means of doing such was rather questionable. But that wasn't my point.

All in all, I think Marxism makes a hell of a lot more sense than Leninism, and Maoism. But the closest thing to it is probably Trotskyism, and even that can be a stretch. The reason I believe most people like Ernesto Che Guevera is because he put the needs of people above government, and he had a connection with the people, unlike other communist rulers (albeit, he wasn't truly a ruler.) I know that's why I like him so much.
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Old 05-09-2008, 10:19 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rorschach Twin
Anarchy doesn't mean no rules. It means no ruler. It is not total chaos and violence. That idea is only attached by people's fear of not having a governing body. Above all, government is a sense of comfort from the absolute chaos that the world can be, but that does not link anarchy and chaos.
The absence of some authority prevents any agreed-upon set of rules from being upheld effectively. Theoretically, a small anarchist community, composed entirely of people devoted to the success of the experiment, could work, but in a larger society, certain individuals will always be able to assert themselves at the expense of others who lack the resources to defend their interests, regardless of whatever stipulations exist.



Quote:
All in all, I think Marxism makes a hell of a lot more sense than Leninism, and Maoism. But the closest thing to it is probably Trotskyism, and even that can be a stretch. The reason I believe most people like Ernesto Che Guevera is because he put the needs of people above government, and he had a connection with the people, unlike other communist rulers (albeit, he wasn't truly a ruler.) I know that's why I like him so much.
He did eventually become a government official, though, and an exceedingly cruel one at that. Rather than heed the voice of the people, he silenced it but for what he wanted to hear.
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Old 05-21-2008, 01:33 PM   #42
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What I don't like about communism is how sheerly unnatural it is. Life is based around struggle. If everyone is on the same level, there is no incentive to climb higher. If a doctor having spent 8 years in medical school is payed and treated the same as some two bit high school drop out sweeping the floors, it will piss the doctor off, and rightfully so.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:31 AM   #43
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What I don't like about communism is how sheerly unnatural it is. Life is based around struggle. If everyone is on the same level, there is no incentive to climb higher. If a doctor having spent 8 years in medical school is payed and treated the same as some two bit high school drop out sweeping the floors, it will piss the doctor off, and rightfully so.

Your assumption seems to be whats unnatural. Why should society treat a person less appropriately? Shouldn't society treat the lesser person more appropriately?

What I mean is they won't treat a doctor like a janitor, but they will treat a janitor like a doctor. Why is that such a bad thing? Should we not have respect for our common man?

I ask this because in Ireland and the rest of Europe we already have a system in place which is identical to the scenario you described and it does not react in the way you mentioned.

In Ireland you can get supplemental income from the government if your job pays less than the national poverty rate. If you make minimum wage and have a family of four, the government sends you a weekly check to put your income on the same level as those who make much more than you at jobs that require higher education. This way, we have no 'working poor' and everyone is pretty much equal.

This doesn't mean we look down on anyone though. In fact, of all the places in the world I have ever lived, here there is the least amount of classism and people don't focus on your job from a monetary standpoint like they do in America.

For example, if you tell people here you work at a chipper (fast food place), they are like cool. In America if you say that there is a stigmata attached. Here, since they make as much as everyone else and get benefits, there is no feeling like this person has a crap job. ANY job here is a good job thanks to this government policy.

I can see how living in a country where so much emphasis is put on being a doctor, lawyer, or CEO could effect people in such a society, but the reality is once you remove the class boundaries, people actually are much more hospitable to one another and money isn't as much of a mitigating factor when establishing social groups or boundaries.
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:21 AM   #44
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It's unnatural because it's the same thing as removing things from the food chain and making them level. What you describe is different from what I mean. I'm taking about full on communism, not just modern socialism. I mean everyone payed exactly the same per person, everyone on the exact same paying field. Where does the motivation go to do better then? Where does the incentive to work harder go, if no matter what you're guaranteed a certain wage? Why should someone try their best when they'll make the same as a shmuck who does the bare minimum?
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Old 05-22-2008, 10:27 AM   #45
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After I questioned a guy about his Guevara badge and asked why he did not support Democratic Socialists rather than Militants, he said "Britain should be run through Despotism."

This sums up Che supporters.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:33 PM   #46
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Hey! You're the first person to blow the whistle when someone makes a broad generalization and you do this?
You base your opinion on Che from a British guy with a button?
Jean Paul Sartre called the Che the purest human he has ever known.
Why does THAT not sums up Che supporters?

And wormboy, your argument doesn't work the same way social darwinism doesn't. They are just mentioning a very broad and vague understanding of life to support their claims. Competitiveness and the food chain are among species. It is unnatural except in primates to show oppression towards one's own species.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:10 PM   #47
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Hey! You're the first person to blow the whistle when someone makes a broad generalization and you do this?
You base your opinion on Che from a British guy with a button?
Jean Paul Sartre called the Che the purest human he has ever known.
Why does THAT not sums up Che supporters?
Not on Che. I think that Che's methods were outdated and too militant and I think that he represents a side of Communism that is easy to take opposition with. His supporters however are the annoying ones.

95% of people who openly like Che do it for the pop culture. It's a given. For that reason, most Che supporters are stupid. Not all. But most.
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Old 05-22-2008, 01:37 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JCC
95% of people who openly like Che do it for the pop culture. It's a given. For that reason, most Che supporters are stupid. Not all. But most.
Then I agree with you, but it's only as valid as that anarchism is chaotic and savage simply because that's what most people shout out.
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People who say they don’t care what people think are usually desperate to have people think they don’t care what people think.
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Old 05-22-2008, 02:07 PM   #49
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Then I agree with you, but it's only as valid as that anarchism is chaotic and savage simply because that's what most people shout out.
Anarchism is a flawed system. In a localized environment, it could possibly work, but nationally it would be a disaster.
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Old 05-22-2008, 06:13 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Godslayer Jillian
It is unnatural except in primates to show oppression towards one's own species.
Well, if it's natural for primates then it's well natural for us, being primates.
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