50 Shades Of Grey

[honeythorn]

Seriously the memes make it hilarious. So many of my friends cougar pals from the stables are drooling and dribbling over this book. I need to post the review on facebook.

What gets me is how many stories have come out in the wake of this book, of relationships being pepped up or conversely, destroyed because of the woman ( usually ) reading this book. Tales of people's sex lives getting better ( seriously how bad was it? ) or of partners leaving because the other couldn't put the book down for a second, and wanted to try fisting and being whipped while probably biting their own lip off or something.

[Miss Absynthe]

The funniest thing that I've heard about this book was a friend who declared "This book offends me.. both as a librarian AND a pervert!"

Also, the fact that there is now a parody of it named "50 Shames of Earl Grey" by Fanny Merkin.

[Saya]

I want that book!

You guys, I went to the sex toy store and they had a display in the front of the shop with the book and fetish gear.

YOU GUYS.

YOU GUYS ON THE BABELAND WEBSITE THEYRE LIKE THIS IS WHAT YOU NEED TO REENACT SCENES FROM 50 SHADES YOU GUUUUUUUYZ.

[Saya]

You guys I won't be able to sleep because now I can't think of how disappointed some women will be when buttplugs don't make them feel like they're flying and they don't come out clean D:

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by BourbonBoy

You'd be surprised. I once dated a woman who thought Mr. Sparkly from Twilight was the perfect man.

Oh dear, well I hope the past tense is because you no longer date her.


HT - are you serious? By the time I got 1/2 through the first book, I was skimming over the sex scenes. I think sometimes it's more fun to just fade to black and let the reader use their imagination what's going on.

[CuckooTuli]

To be honest, there's a little bit of me that find it sad that I can't just be happy for the author. I mean, she was just some woman who liked writing fanfiction as a hobby, never expected anything like this to come from it, and is actually sort of bemused that people even want to read her shit; in the middle of a global recession, she became a millionnaire just because she got lucky doing something she liked. And not for profit; she was just indulging her private fantasies.

As a strident feminist who also likes the subby side of kink, I am inclined to see my own private sexual realm as one in which the social 'responsibility' I try and hold myself to in the rest of my life is suspended, as is my own agency. Despite the fact that I can't deny the possibility that social formations have shaped this inner world to some degree, I've made my peace with this, on the basis that it can only happen with my own consent (and fuck me, I don't want to be intellectualizing ALL the time if it means I feel my sex life is missing something that hits the spot for me; I never claimed to be the fucking patron saint of any of this shit).

Sure, consent in the books seems to be problematic in its representation, and it is of course quite right that this should be pointed out and explored; but at the same time, I am aware that this wasn't someone who sat down to write a cerebral and literary exploration of BDSM - it was just some woman having fun with her own inner fantasies, then got offered a buttload of money to publish them. On a human level, part of me thinks "good for her".

Then I see ANOTHER Facebook status deriding not only the book, but women in general for going so crazy over it. Which isn't the author's fault - it's the fault of a culture that reserves the right to judge and censure women as a group: men, for being stupid enough to read complete toss, and women who don't read complete toss, for Letting The Side Down. I suppose I see the same troubled relationship between the personal and the political in the book's association with women, as others see in the book's association with BDSM.

[BourbonBoy]

Saya - I'm looking at the bright side of the buttplug situation, which is the lulz.

Fruitbat - yep, no longer date that woman and tried to make it a dating requirement for a while but sadly it seems just about every single woman in my area thinks Meyers' books are a good read and excellent vampire shiterature, I mean literature.

HT - That is a good question, how bad were the sex lives for a book to ruin or improve the relationship? Clearly something was going on that the couple needed to address. Guess it's cheaper than a counselor.

CuckooTuli - I just can't see how anyone can get into this tripe. Yes, to each their own but if what the public is reading lowers the general IQ then serious questions do need to be asked. For instance a friend of mine was going on about 50 Shades and I recommended another erotica series. Her reply was, "How can you be close minded about 50 Shades?" Talk about a situation for an open facepalm.

[Saya]

I felt no animosity for the author because, hey, all she did was write fanfiction. But then the racism in the book made me iffy (She made the Jacob character a Mexican who talks like Speedy Gonzales and of course he's a date rapist). And then she was tweeting about how Ana is a role model for women.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by BourbonBoy

CuckooTuli - I just can't see how anyone can get into this tripe. Yes, to each their own but if what the public is reading lowers the general IQ then serious questions do need to be asked. For instance a friend of mine was going on about 50 Shades and I recommended another erotica series. Her reply was, "How can you be close minded about 50 Shades?" Talk about a situation for an open facepalm.

Oh, totally - I guess I just judge the author's readers more harshly than the author herself, in a way. i mean, I write crap I know is crap, but if I blogged the biggest piece of cack I'd ever written and someone offered me monies for it, I'm not sure my broke ass would have the integrity to say no, was all's I really meant. None of this hippie schtick is intended to imply that I don't judge people on a personal level for their shitty taste, though; I totally do.

Mostly I just resent the way certain people seem inclined to use the massive success of books like this (and the Twilight series itself) as proof that women as a group are deficient and can be pegged into the mug-market. Crap totally dominates pop culture and these don't sound THAT much worse than plenty of the other shit out there IMO, yet because it's a "woman thing", lots of people of both sexes seem to be all "Ohhh come on ladies, sort it out!!" about it. I find this more noxious than the fact that someone made a fortune by writing a shitty book. But anyway, I was talking more about stuff I've seen on Facebook than anything in particular that's been said in this thread.

Originally Posted by Saya

I felt no animosity for the author because, hey, all she did was write fanfiction. But then the racism in the book made me iffy (She made the Jacob character a Mexican who talks like Speedy Gonzales and of course he's a date rapist). And then she was tweeting about how Ana is a role model for women.

Jesus rollerblading Christ... okay, that's pretty special.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Originally Posted by Saya

You guys I won't be able to sleep because now I can't think of how disappointed some women will be when buttplugs don't make them feel like they're flying and they don't come out clean D:

Lol. I think your supposed to cleanse before any anal play. I need to read this book though. Too many people are reading it now, and I feel like there is something I don't understand. I have the ebook (in this case, I would never buy the book. I can't waste money on a fan fiction.) but, I have been putting it off until I'm really bored. Just bought a 3ds too, so I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

One question though, I know it has bdsm elements in it, are they at least portrayed respectfully? Or should I expect an outside perspective on it? because generally, I'm tired of people going "oh what a crazy sex life, I wonder what that's like" then going off writing a book like they know anything about it.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by CuckooTuli

Mostly I just resent the way certain people seem inclined to use the massive success of books like this (and the Twilight series itself) as proof that women as a group are deficient and can be pegged into the mug-market. Crap totally dominates pop culture and these don't sound THAT much worse than plenty of the other shit out there IMO, yet because it's a "woman thing", lots of people of both sexes seem to be all "Ohhh come on ladies, sort it out!!" about it. I find this more noxious than the fact that someone made a fortune by writing a shitty book. But anyway, I was talking more about stuff I've seen on Facebook than anything in particular that's been said in this thread.

Ooooooh man, I had a big rant about this last night on a comic book blog. A commenter said something to the effect that DC shouldn't cater to women because they can't write stuff like Twilight or 50 Shades Of Grey.

Funny thing about that is, women read way more then men, and the only genres where men outread women are history and biography. Only 20% of men apparently read fiction. We're as much responsible for good things becoming popular as we are for more crappy things becoming popular. We'll read just about anything! Its not hard to do, apparently, unless like in comics you go out of your way to insist its a boys only club because women's money apparently has cooties.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Originally Posted by Saya

Ooooooh man, I had a big rant about this last night on a comic book blog. A commenter said something to the effect that DC shouldn't cater to women because they can't write stuff like Twilight or 50 Shades Of Grey.

Funny thing about that is, women read way more then men, and the only genres where men outread women are history and biography. Only 20% of men apparently read fiction. We're as much responsible for good things becoming popular as we are for more crappy things becoming popular. We'll read just about anything! Its not hard to do, apparently, unless like in comics you go out of your way to insist its a boys only club because women's money apparently has cooties.

You know, I've noticed that. If it wasn't for the emerging otaku culture, I don't think I would see any men in the book stores.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Murder.Of.Crows

Lol. I think your supposed to cleanse before any anal play. I need to read this book though. Too many people are reading it now, and I feel like there is something I don't understand. I have the ebook (in this case, I would never buy the book. I can't waste money on a fan fiction.) but, I have been putting it off until I'm really bored. Just bought a 3ds too, so I don't think that is going to happen anytime soon.

One question though, I know it has bdsm elements in it, are they at least portrayed respectfully? Or should I expect an outside perspective on it? because generally, I'm tired of people going "oh what a crazy sex life, I wonder what that's like" then going off writing a book like they know anything about it.

I wouldn't say its portrayed respectfully at all. Like he makes her sign a contract saying she can only eat what he approves of, needs to exercise as much as he says and not gain weight, he threatens he will hunt her down if she runs away, she's only allowed one weekend a month to hang out with friends, the sex is hella unrealistic (she's a virgin in the beginning, has no pain and orgasms right away), and there's no safety concerns. In the epilogue of the third book, he's flogging her very pregnant belly. After the sex, he starts bragging about how his unborn daughter enjoys sexy already.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Murder.Of.Crows

You know, I've noticed that. If it wasn't for the emerging otaku culture, I don't think I would see any men in the book stores.

Actually, that was another point, "women comic readers should just stick to manga." Say what you will about manga, at least they realize that women and LGBTQ should be catered to.

[Murder.Of.Crows]

Holy shit balls! That is the worst portrayal of bdsm ever! And, the huge popularity to this book astounds me. Why would anyone want to be dominated and abused so terribly.

Anyways, I love manga and respect if far more than comic books in general. They seem to have more thought put into them than comics. Of course this doesn't apply to all situations on either side, but in majority.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Murder.Of.Crows

Holy shit balls! That is the worst portrayal of bdsm ever! And, the huge popularity to this book astounds me. Why would anyone want to be dominated and abused so terribly.

Anyways, I love manga and respect if far more than comic books in general. They seem to have more thought put into them than comics. Of course this doesn't apply to all situations on either side, but in majority.

Well you could say the same about manga XD I'm finding it a little more difficult finding stuff to my tastes and there's always that risk that if its not good, I just wasted six dollars on a manga that took me less than an hour to read. With comics I don't feel like it was so much of a bust money or time wise. I do think DC and Marvel need to get their heads out of their asses when it comes to women, LGBTQ and PoC, and to an extent Dark Horse and Vertigo, but the indies got a lot more freedom to do whatever they want.

Although I've been meaning to pick up Demon Knights. apparently there is a trans* character (the writer says he is but I don't think its been officially confirmed in the book), which I think would make him the first trans* DC hero or villain, which ever he is.

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Saya

I felt no animosity for the author because, hey, all she did was write fanfiction. But then the racism in the book made me iffy (She made the Jacob character a Mexican who talks like Speedy Gonzales and of course he's a date rapist). And then she was tweeting about how Ana is a role model for women.

Was that racism? I didn't think so. I mean I'm pretty sure there are Mexican rapists just like there are rapists in every other nationality on the planet.

I just finished reading a sample of a book where an Australian cowboy was two timing his wife. So if I follow through with your logic, then all australian men are two timers and cowboys... And that's racist - because the book was written by an American.??? huh?

Oh and for the record, the Australian slang in the book was terrible.

[Versus]

I... don't even. This is why nobody likes you.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Was that racism? I didn't think so. I mean I'm pretty sure there are Mexican rapists just like there are rapists in every other nationality on the planet.

I just finished reading a sample of a book where an Australian cowboy was two timing his wife. So if I follow through with your logic, then all australian men are two timers and cowboys... And that's racist - because the book was written by an American.??? huh?

Oh and for the record, the Australian slang in the book was terrible.

1. Portraying men of colour as rapists, particularly rapists of white women, have been a HUGE excuse for oppressing people of colour. Men got lynched for so much as whistling at white women, white **** victims have been pressured by police to accuse black men instead of the white men who have ***** them (To Kill A Mockingbird was loosely based on such a case). The KKK and Neo-Nazis to this day talk about how we have to protect our white women from men of colour. This historical context, combined with the fact that he was a racist caricature in every other way, AND THE ONLY CHARACTER OF COLOUR, all signs point to racism.

2. White people cannot be victims of racism. They can be victims of prejudice, but racism is prejudice plus power. Furthermore, "Australian" is not a race. Was the main character aboriginal? Or do you just think "Australian" means "white Australian", and is a racial identity? Then what does that make aboriginal Australians?

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Was that racism? I didn't think so. I mean I'm pretty sure there are Mexican rapists just like there are rapists in every other nationality on the planet.

I just finished reading a sample of a book where an Australian cowboy was two timing his wife. So if I follow through with your logic, then all australian men are two timers and cowboys... And that's racist - because the book was written by an American.??? huh?

Oh and for the record, the Australian slang in the book was terrible.

Then why wasn't the main character portrayed as a rapist, seeing as he consistently ignored Ana's withdrawal of consent?

[Fruitbat]

Originally Posted by Saya

1. Portraying men of colour as rapists, particularly rapists of white women, have been a HUGE excuse for oppressing people of colour. Men got lynched for so much as whistling at white women, white **** victims have been pressured by police to accuse black men instead of the white men who have ***** them (To Kill A Mockingbird was loosely based on such a case). The KKK and Neo-Nazis to this day talk about how we have to protect our white women from men of colour. This historical context, combined with the fact that he was a racist caricature in every other way, AND THE ONLY CHARACTER OF COLOUR, all signs point to racism.

2. White people cannot be victims of racism. They can be victims of prejudice, but racism is prejudice plus power. Furthermore, "Australian" is not a race. Was the main character aboriginal? Or do you just think "Australian" means "white Australian", and is a racial identity? Then what does that make aboriginal Australians?

"I felt no animosity for the author because, hey, all she did was write fanfiction. But then the racism in the book made me iffy (She made the Jacob character a Mexican who talks like Speedy Gonzales and of course he's a date rapist). And then she was tweeting about how Ana is a role model for women. "

This is what you wrote. The Mexican tried to kiss her, is kissing RRApe? I'd have to say no... It makes him a poor judge of timing but not a rapist.

There was no description of whether the cowboy was white or aboriginal.

Why can't white people be victims of racism? What is it called then if a white person receives treatment that woudl be classed as racism if it were happening to a person of a non-white background?

(just asking the question because I've seen it working both ways - white people treating other nationalities with racism and I've also seen other nationalities treat white people with what would be considered racism)



MissA
Did ana withdraw her consent? I don't recall if she did or not.

[BourbonBoy]

By making him a stereotype, then yes, that is racism, regardless if it was intentional or not. As someone with mixed ethnic background, I can't help but mention how much that pisses me off that half of my lineage is perceived like this:



And this:



And characters like the one in 50 Shades of Shit only adds fuel to the fire. "Why?" you might ask? Well, not all ethnic Mexicans drink tequila, listen to mariachi music, speak Spanish, sound like Speedy Gonzalez, pack 20 people into a vehicle, drive lowriders or have 200 cousins like the second pic would have you believe.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

This is what you wrote. The Mexican tried to kiss her, is kissing RRApe? I'd have to say no... It makes him a poor judge of timing but not a rapist.

“No José, stop – no.” I push him, but he’s a wall of hard muscle, and I cannot shift him. His hand has slipped into my hair, and he’s holding my head in place.
“Please, Ana, cariña,” he whispers against my lips. His breath is soft and smells too sweet – of margarita and beer. He gently trails kisses along my jaw up to the side of my mouth. I feel panicky, drunk, and out of control. The feeling is suffocating.
“José, no,” I plead. I don’t want this. You are my friend, and I think I’m going to throw up.

A direct quote from the book.

There was no description of whether the cowboy was white or aboriginal.

She mentions it because of when you said "Australian" in the place of an actual race. Inferring that the average person is white is a common thing that white people do.

Why can't white people be victims of racism? What is it called then if a white person receives treatment that woudl be classed as racism if it were happening to a person of a non-white background?

(just asking the question because I've seen it working both ways - white people treating other nationalities with racism and I've also seen other nationalities treat white people with what would be considered racism)

Because people of color suffer systemic racism and white people do not. As Saya already said, white people can suffer from individual instances of prejudice, not racism. There is a world of difference between the two.

[CuckooTuli]

Originally Posted by Saya

2. White people cannot be victims of racism. They can be victims of prejudice, but racism is prejudice plus power.

I've had the "white people experience racism too!!" argument with a lot of people - this pretty much sums it up. A white person getting the cold shoulder in the local hip hop club just isn't the same as being institutionally disadvantaged throughout your entire life in a way that it's impossible to escape, based on the way you were born.

There may be spheres of society in which white people are going to be disadvantaged (presumably, spheres which are primarily non-white in their make-up, in which they may be met with distrust or outright hostility). But the difference is that a white person doesn't HAVE to frequent these places; they are not an inescapable part of our world. It's easy for us to remove ourselves from situations in which we are likely to be discriminated against based on race (we don't HAVE to go to that hip hip club, to continue the above example). A PoC doesn't have that option, because the whole of society is pretty much The White Sphere. They don't get to opt out of that, and that's the difference.

[Miss Absynthe]

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

The Mexican tried to kiss her, is kissing RRApe? I'd have to say no... It makes him a poor judge of timing but not a rapist.

I suppose that depends on the definition that you have of what a 'rapist' is. The character in question didn't just try to kiss her and stop when he was told that his advances were unwelcome - if he did that, if he was clumsy with his timing but respected the fact that she said 'no' then that would make him a poor judge of timing. He consistantly ignored the fact that she said 'no' and that she was struggling to get away from him - this is what makes it r.ap.e.

R.a.p.e culture dictates that unless there is penetration (or something approximating penetration) then the act of ignoring the lack of consent isn't rrape This is bullshit. R.a.p.e culture is bullshit. We have been trained as a society to make excuses for rapists. We expect that consent is automatically given instead of demanding that it is requested before anything is attempted, and that for a r.a.p.e to occur that consent must be withdrawn and that some sort of harm should occur. This is bullshit.

I know that I sound angry, and I am trying to stay calm and rational about this, but I am SO over people being taught how not to be r.a.p.e.d, instead of us teaching people *NOT* to rrape

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

Why can't white people be victims of racism? What is it called then if a white person receives treatment that woudl be classed as racism if it were happening to a person of a non-white background?

WRT racism/reverse racism: You might want to do some reading about the concepts of 'privilege' and 'social currency'. A great place to start is Peggy McIntosh's essay White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Backpack

Originally Posted by Fruitbat

MissA
Did ana withdraw her consent? I don't recall if she did or not.

There were a great number of times that she withdrew consent from Christian, but he continued because she was his property, he knew she'd enjoy it, he was excited by her attempts to fight him off etc..

This is problematic in itself.. let alone the fact that consent was assumed to be given and never actually asked for (and yes, even I thoughtlessly perpetuated that idea in the way that I phrased my remark about her "withdrawing" consent - r.a.p.e culture is FUCKED.)

And Gnet - you are pissing me the fuck off with the **** thing.