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View Poll Results: Should the military be allowed to recruit at universities?
Yes. 8 66.67%
No. 4 33.33%
Voters: 12. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-05-2005, 05:36 PM   #1
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Uncle Sam Goes to College

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/05/02/sc....ap/index.html

"The Supreme Court said Monday it will consider whether colleges and universities may bar military recruiters from their campuses without fear of losing federal funds."

Thoughts?

My position is that college students, if they don't wish to join the military, are smart enough to not join.
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:04 AM   #2
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Alright, so I'll give you that- college students *should* be smart enough to make their own decisions about whether or not they're going to join the military, but I don't think that's what the ammendment is about. It's not that the law schools are scared that the military is brainwashing their students, but that the law schools are questioning whether or not a college or university setting is the right setting for military recruitment. It's a place of learning, should the students also be bombarded with military recruitment questions, as well? I think not- Military recruitment has its place, as does learning. And those are seperate places, in my opinion.

Another huge part of this issue is that, if the law schools don't allow unlimited military access, the law schools lose their government funding. Now, if I know anything about schools, and I do, they *need* that government funding, to keep providing the level of academic services that they do. But does the government have the right to control the open-ness of the school to the military, if they're funding it? That's where things get really sticky. In a perfect society, I'd say no, because the government promotes freedom of speech, open ness and equalilty, so there should be no pressure. That's how I think it should work, but I don't think that's how it's going to work. Maybe there could be a compromise... let the law schools limit the amount of access the military has?



It's a really complicated issue... I wish you had posted your actual opinion instead of that little one-sentance teaser... :wink:
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:21 PM   #3
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*New Discovery* (on my part...)

The law schools don't want the military recruiting because they bar employers that discriminate on sexual orientation (which is another case, currently in the lower courts).

Okay, so this is a whole other issue- whether or not the government has the right to overturn the law schools' policy on not letting discriminatory employers on their campus. Well, considering the government is *way* behind the times, here- I'm with the law schools. Their policy is just and should not be over-turned.
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:36 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TeapotScar
Now, if I know anything about schools, and I do, they *need* that government funding, to keep providing the level of academic services that they do. But does the government have the right to control the open-ness of the school to the military, if they're funding it? That's where things get really sticky. In a perfect society, I'd say no, because the government promotes freedom of speech, open ness and equalilty, so there should be no pressure.
The government should promote freedom of speech and open-ness, so it should therefore keep a particular viewpoint off of campuses? (Campi?)

And yes, they need the money. But it's government money, which means that the government decides whether or not you get it -- schools don't have a right to it. If they decide that they're going to screw the government, then the government can simply withhold funding. In short: Uncle Sam isn't obligated to help institutions that spit in his face.

Quote:
It's a place of learning, should the students also be bombarded with military recruitment questions, as well? I think not- Military recruitment has its place, as does learning. And those are seperate places, in my opinion.
Why are they necessarily separate? I'm sure that the cadets of West Point would disagree with you. And considering that the military needs educated, intelligent officers -- not brainless drones ;-- I would say that a college campus is the perfect place for them to pick up ideal officer material.

Quote:
Okay, so this is a whole other issue- whether or not the government has the right to overturn the law schools' policy on not letting discriminatory employers on their campus. Well, considering the government is *way* behind the times, here- I'm with the law schools. Their policy is just and should not be over-turned.
No it's not. The issue isn't whether the government has the right to overturn their policy, it's whether the government is obligated to continue to fund institutions that disagree with their policy and actively kick out government institutions.

If a university wants to disallow the military because of policy differences, then that's their right. But the government then reserves the right to withdraw its funding of that institution.
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Old 05-06-2005, 01:56 PM   #5
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Alot of students are in college because of the military. The Army College Fund provides students with an alternative to being in debt for the first 7-10 years of their life straight out of college by paying for it through scholarships and funds. There are benefits to joining the military before and in college, that help you in the long-run of your career as a student.
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Old 05-06-2005, 02:00 PM   #6
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If the *people* don't have the right to government money, then I don' t know who does. And, look- it's the government's policy that's currently in question in the other courts, not the law school's policy. The policy of not letting discriminatory groups onto campus(es? I have no idea, either...) is, however, *not* under investigation in trial.

And you say the campuses are discriminating because they aren't letting certain groups onto campus, but they're being discriminatory against discrimination. If we don't discriminate against the wrongful discrimination of people for their sexual orientation, then the world is going to be a very bad place, plain and simple. Policies need to work *against* discrimination, not in favor of it.
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Old 05-06-2005, 02:04 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
Alot of students are in college because of the military. The Army College Fund provides students with an alternative to being in debt for the first 7-10 years of their life straight out of college by paying for it through scholarships and funds. There are benefits to joining the military before and in college, that help you in the long-run of your career as a student.
That's not in question. I have a friend who's doing the ROTC program thing, and those kinds of collaborations between the government and universities... they're... useful to those who want them. But actual recruitment at colleges is a different matter than the ROTC programs and things like that.
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Old 05-06-2005, 02:10 PM   #8
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Yeah, sorta going off-road with that little blurb, but if I'm not mistaken, you did make the suggestion that military recruiters don't have any place on college campuses, Tea. :wink:
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Old 05-06-2005, 02:36 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
Alot of students are in college because of the military. The Army College Fund provides students with an alternative to being in debt for the first 7-10 years of their life straight out of college by paying for it through scholarships and funds. There are benefits to joining the military before and in college, that help you in the long-run of your career as a student.
So fucking what, Binks? It's not like the recruitment is going for the students who are already in the military.

"it's government money, which means that the government decides whether or not you get it"

Ño it fucking isn't. It's YOUR fucking money. You do not pay taxes so that government institutions can just come into campus and recruit people in a prejudiced manner.

Let's say I'm gay and pay my taxes, who the fuck does the government think they are to use my money to endorse the idea that my lifestyle is wrong and shouldn't be allowed into certain areas of worklife?
The whole idea is disgusting and goes agains all that America stands for, even if on principle alone.

Like I keep saying around here, "I HAD a dream".

Wake up people, your country is being overrun from the inside.

"schools don't have a right to it. If they decide that they're going to screw the government, then the government can simply withhold funding. "

I think you're mistaken: it's the government who's trying to do the schools, who are doing all I think America stands for: a certain sense of equality.

Keep it up guys, and you'll be just like pre-WWII Europe.

Basically, I think that if anytime during the last 50 years, some urban area in the US had been bombed to rubble, Americans wouldn't be so gung-ho about the military.

Everybody loves parties and America always does it with a bang, but they never fucking host the party. They offer or force you to use their equipment to clean up and then charge you for cleaning up their shit.

Provocative enough? Bring it on.

Asurai: just getting back to you on something you asked about your credibility. The whole Black and White thing. Yes, it makes life a whole of a lot easier. Hence racists and bigots: it's a lot easier to see things in black and white, but shit ain't like that. I know this is on the wroing thread, but remember your old man would probably rather disenbowel himsef with a rusty spoon than do anything else for a living. That's nature for you.

An~d not meaning to be rude to you or your family, but ~farming is like making love to a woman. If you go against her wishes and preferences, you'll have to resort to ****. And ****** never makes for easy satisfaction.
Meaning it has a lot to do with what you grow where and when. Dude, please don't get offended. If so, I'll just apologize in the manner of your chosing.
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Old 05-06-2005, 04:32 PM   #10
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So fucking what?? Not going for the students who are already in the military? Huh? They're targeting kids who have ambitions for college and either need a large ass scholarship (which they may not be able to recieve otherwise) or are looking for an alternative to taking out a huge school loan, which they'll spend a decade paying back as soon as they get their degree. Military Recruiters don't just visit colleges. They visit highschools too. You'd think if this were all about discrimination, first flag would be raised in a public school.

But anywho, it encourages students who may not even think about college due to the financial burden to start thinking about getting that higher education. It's an alternative for paying off your tuition and it's avaliable and readily used by quite a few students on campuses around the nation. It's an option. You can say "no/fuck off/shut up, your killing my high" or whatever you want to them. Or, just flat out avoid/ignore them. If it's not for you, it's not for you. It is, however, for other people who make the decision to go that route, and it's convenient that they're there - due to the fact that statistically, a large number of students pay for college through military scholarships.

Back to the topic; this is Business 101... "We'll supply you with free goods if you advertise us in your store."

And yeah, there are people who will say, "Well government isn't a business, why are you judging them by business ethics, blah, blah, blah..." But at the end of the day, yes, it is one. Shocker as it may be, capitalism is based entirely on saving a buck. It's been a business since the revolution when we were busy seeking financial freedom so our economy could profit on it's own without someone else dipping their greeding hands into our markets and picking out their "share." Mael, you say we were founded on equality, but modern "equality" as we all know it in America today hasn't really been there all that long when you start looking back about 50 or 60 years.

Alot of my posts get confused for me standing up and saying, "The way things are is right!!," rather than from the understanding perspective of, "So what? This is how works, has worked, and will work for a long time.."
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Old 05-06-2005, 05:20 PM   #11
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Binks dear, I'm sorry for having given the impression I didn't give a rats arse about the needy who have the military as a sole alternative to furthe their education. It is not so.
But I feel that it doesn't take much of the pentagon's huge marketing department budget on tv, radio and magazine adverts to influence those who really need it.
It's the fringe, the undecided, the not-as-needy that are being targeted, much like your last elections' pub circus concentrated on specific niches in the audience and not on the hardcore.

In the end, you didn't even need the pragmatism of detached speech. I think it's wrong on a moral principle. It's a question of integrity to deliver the pursuit of happiness to all citizens who obey the rules of civilized society.
But it's your freely elected government who did this. So, if you're an american citizen who also doesn't agree and didn't vote=fuck you. You don't have the right to criticise.
Next time, exercise the only power you have in this system.
You're too young to vote? Read up on things and participate in order to properly make up your own fucking mind when the time comes.

I'm a foreigner. The rules in my country do not recognize Homosexuality (not bad, since not long ago, it was a crime).
But my society believes that who you fuck is your own business. They will criticise it and be pricks if they find out, but no one would dream of asking who you like to fuck before you join a bunch of people of the same sex for a while. Even people who aren't morons might feel uncomfortable around someone they know to be gay (especially in the navy). It's his/her choice to "come out" and not a pre-requirement for a job.

But you voted and spoke your choice. Sadly, for the 1st time, I'll say something about americans I've been saying for years about my country: people get the government they deserve.

Howzat?

p.s. My heart goes out to the needy stuck in a war thousands of lifetimes away from home, strangers in a strange land, fighting for something they don't really know about, but keep fighting, because they're brothers are there, and all because they wanted to be better people (well at least they're not fags). Sorry if I remind you of Sternn.
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:12 PM   #12
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-Hey Joker, how come you got a peace pin on your helmet as well as the words "Born to kill" written on it?

-I meant to make a statement about the duality of war...



-....huh? Listen son, inside every gook, there's an american trying to get out.





Me thinks the drill instructor sees the world in black & white. :wink:
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:31 PM   #13
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Don't forget video games, Mael. They're happily handing out a free copy of "America's Army" at the recruiter's offices now and it's avaliable as a free download on the net.

They're targeting less needy people? If people sign up, and they're not motivated by the need for a college tuition or to be paid or money in general, there's something else driving them to step into the recruiter's office and sign up. National pride, family tradition, alternative to jail, citizenship, or other? Take your pick, but any way you cut it, initial enlistment is voluntary in this country.
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Old 05-06-2005, 10:46 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
Don't forget video games, Mael. They're happily handing out a free copy of "America's Army" at the recruiter's offices now and it's avaliable as a free download on the net.
Being a great fan of 1st-person shooters, a friend of mine who's in the portuguese special forces (Rangers) plays that all the time and showed it to me..... WOW, the graphics!!!!!! The only fault I find in it is that the realism means reloads are quite slow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Binkie
...National pride, family tradition, alternative to jail, citizenship, or other? Take your pick, but any way you cut it, initial enlistment is voluntary in this country.
And I for one am all for it.
And I still say that that message shouldn't be conveyed officially in any learning center or religious center.
There are such things as community halls for lectures and I'd say advertising renders them useless today.
Damn it, if today's global politics don't push you away or into military service in your country, then your name must be Terry Schiavo or you've been digging for gold in the desert and don't know shit about life on Earth for the last 5 years.



Your local minister can sermon and lecture all he wants about how good and righteous the war is during mass, but does it seem in good taste to have recruitment activities in a place whose 1st comandment says : Thou Shall Not Kill?
I'm sure you don't have that in churches (do you?). I said it to illustrate my point. I hope it comes across.

Teaching and learning centres are mankinds' frontline in the war against chaos and towards evolution.

I cannot accept the fact that we can't solve differences in a more rational and less macho-neanderthal way.

I will fight for no nation, but I will die for any man, woman or child.

Maybe some day you'll join me (metric system and drugs are optional. Nudity is not! :roll: ).

I'm done here.

Sorry if my two cents are the wrong currency. :cry:
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:31 PM   #15
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The only fault I find in it is that the realism means reloads are quite slow.
And they greatly exaggerate floatting aim. Especially if you're training with the M24 and you have a friggin' bipod down.

:roll:

Quote:
Maybe some day you'll join me (metric system and drugs are optional. Nudity is not! :roll: )
Yeah, but you don't have all the nifty equipment, Mael. A bucket full of the ganj won't win you many battles... 'cept maybe for the battle of emptying out the local mini mart of it's snacks. :lol:
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:55 PM   #16
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Old 05-06-2005, 11:57 PM   #17
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I already avoided the decolonization massacres in Mozambique right after my birth, survived the hot summer of 75, when this country was at the brink of post-revolution civil war, didn't volunteer to join the Royal Australian Armed Forces (ANZACS Aus. NZeal Arm. For.) when Desert Shield took place and avoided the still compulsory draft when I returned to portuguese territory in Macau by staying in public school at night while working during the day.

National pride? I got lots of it to go around: Portuguese, Australian, Her Royal Majesty's subject (Lizzie the 2nd), Lusitanian and Arabic ancestry.

I am not greek nor athenian, but a citizen of the world.

I am proud of who I am (writes the dude with the national coat-of-arms as his avatar).

I never said I was coherent. :shock:

p.s. Not sure if it's PS2's Splinter Cell or PC's Deus-Ex that had a floating sniper cross-hair that I could only use if drunk (to counterbalance the rocking movement, you know?).
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:17 AM   #18
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Deus Ex.. man. I've spent so much time trying to figure out how exactly the computer determines where the reticule will go that just.. argh >_< it's the first skill I upgrade.

Oh... and at my High School, the military recruiters (army, marines, navy) come about once a semester. It's kinda funny watching the wanna-be gangsta-hood muthas trying to impress these guys it makes me want to do... very lewd things to their faces while laughing my head off.
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Old 05-07-2005, 12:43 AM   #19
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Deus Ex.. man. I've spent so much time trying to figure out how exactly the computer determines where the reticule will go that just.. argh >_< it's the first skill I upgrade.

That was a kick ass game. I hated it at first cause even with top o the line computer upgrades (at the time) it was still choppy, but I got over that and loved it.

If you liked that game, ice, you should get one of the first games that company made called System Shock 2. Same FPS that allow you to upgrade, but better. That and Theif, both made by the same people that went tits up and were bought by...er I forgot their name, are two of the best games EVAH!

EVAH!
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Old 05-07-2005, 07:08 AM   #20
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This whole topic is quite amusing for one main reason:

In most countries, say like Iraq, people join the army (or insurgents to be more precise) to protect what they believe in, to fight for what they feel is truth and justice.

In the states, people join because they have good commercials and a million dollar PR department, or as in many cases, they can't afford to do anything else.
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Old 05-07-2005, 07:24 AM   #21
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Oh really now? :roll:

So I guess all the Americans who enlisted right after 9/11 just wanted the money. Riiiiiiiiigggggggggghhhhhhhhhhttttttttttttt...

Oh, and are you going to tell me the Iraqis joined the Army in 2000 so they could protect what they believed in? Saddam's regime? Cause they sure didn't last long on the battle field in 2003 when the calvalry came in and found a shit load of desertions.
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Old 05-07-2005, 08:35 AM   #22
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Not fair Binks. After all, everyone is entitled to change their mind.

So what if the whole fucking Iraqui army and republican guard had a sudden change of heart?

Or... ...from Sternn's perspective I can argue that they did the pragmatic thing: recognizing they'd never win a conventional war, they stripped off the uniform and went underground.

A war of atrition is a lot easier to fight when you're on home turf. It demoralizes a much larger and better equiped army (coalition forces) than in conventional warfare.

Of course any person can say: it's not fair for the coalition forces.

Those insurgents are also a mix of people, from bathists, to sunnis, to religious fanatics from all over the muslim world. I don't think there is a single organized force fighting the allies, but clusters of resistance cells who can survive and act independantly from one another. Thus the different methods employed, from beheading to industrial sabotage (which reminds me a lot of the russians).

They're not fighting to play fair, they're fighting to win or die trying.

And for a change, they ain't just saying it. They ARE ready to die and have no qualms about it. Neither did the North Vietnamese.

Our warriors have changed from grunts to sensitive human beings. Better equipment won't beat a more motivated opponent.

In Deus-Ex, My first upgrade was always for the sniper scope. You ever noice how many upgrades you gotta do untill the recoil on the shotgun can be made usable? A shitload of'em.
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Old 05-07-2005, 04:36 PM   #23
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There actually weren't that many soldiers that went underground. Most surrendered or just ran away and never resurfaced or were captured when they did. It was the elite units that were instructed to carry out a guerilla war.

Most of the insurgents you see today and early after the war were not part of the Iraqi military under Saddam. They are, like you said, ba'athists and anti-American Saudis.

And equipment may not win in crushing the insurgent's morale? I'll cite the example where a pocket of about 5-6 insurgents carried out an attempted mortar attack on the US Embassy. A drone flying overhead caught their position and where they ran to and US soldiers immediately went in and took care of them. You've got Bin Laden who can hardly communicate with the rest of his network like he once did due to so much surveilance.

They don't care if they die? How about the Saudi who came to Iraq to fight for the insurgents? He was instructed to drive a truck up to a post and was blown up through a remote detonator by the group that took him in. Went through the windshield and suffered major burns, but somehow survived. When Iraqi Intellegence officers questioned him, he said he didn't come here to die like that and that he didn't want to. So yeah, not all are prepared to die for this cause like we're made to believe by the media.
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Old 05-08-2005, 07:53 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom
In Deus-Ex, My first upgrade was always for the sniper scope. You ever noice how many upgrades you gotta do untill the recoil on the shotgun can be made usable? A shitload of'em.
You mean balistics? I thought the sniper gun itself wasn't even an option til later in the game?

Have you guys played the sequel?

I liked the story options better in "Invisible War", in the first one no matter what you did you basically fucked the world. In this one you can still do that, but you can also keep it running like it is or better.
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Old 05-08-2005, 08:07 PM   #25
MrMaelstrom
 
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Your brother gives it to you right at the start as one of the options before you go into the Statue of Liberty, along with the GEP gun and the Dart thingy.

But I always go for the GEP gun, as one of the terrorists circling the ground perimeter has a sniper rifle I take after I kill his ass.

Never tried the new one, as I'm told it takes a kickass pc to meet the games hardware requirements.
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