Does God Exist?

dollclans · 12-10-2004, 09:15 AM

i got this in one of those forward email things, and although i don't believe in god myself, for many different reasons, i was just wondering what you guys think of this and what you think on the subject of god.

Does God Exist?

This is one of the best explanations of why god allows pain and suffering that i have seen. it's an explanation other people should understand.

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair and beard trimmed. As the barber began to work, they began to have a good conversation. They talked about so many things and various subjects.

When they eventually touched the subject of god that barber said, "i don't believe in god."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to realize god doesn't exist. Tell me, if god exists, would there be so many sick people? Would there be abandoned children? If god existed, there would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't imagine loving a god who would allow all of these things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't respond because he didn't want to start an argument. The barber finished the job and the customer left the shop.

Just after he left the shop, he saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the shop again and said to the barber, "you know what? barbers don't exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the barber. "I am here, and I am a barber."

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist because if they did, there wouldn't be people with long, dirty hair and untrimmed beards."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! What happens is, people do not come to me."

"Exactly!" affirmed the customer."God does exist. What happens is, some people do not go to him. That's why there's so much pain and suffering!"

AnaRQy · 12-10-2004, 08:13 PM

I think a number of gods and goddesses exist, not just the judeo-christian one. Anyway, I know your story was like a joke, but I just couldn't resist because it seems like arrogance to me to say that there is only one god (and of course its male right? lol).

Disfunction · 12-10-2004, 11:07 PM

So wait... you have to pay God to escape pain?

centurion · 12-10-2004, 11:55 PM

I just posted it, so I guess I`ll cut and paste from the "idiocy" thread....

"Sure I don`t discount the possibility of extremely powerful life forms/beings roaming the cosmos with powers that to us, in our current evolutional stage, may seem godlike, but some ultimate omnipotent power....? I don`t believe this is possible. The universe is far too infinite to be considered a "thing" that was created by a living being. "

Though on the other hand, perhaps some feel a certain comfort in believing there`s some powerful humanlike being out there who created human beings in his image to be special and do his work, in their arrogance, so in their minds this fictional image becomes the god of their own universe, so to speak.....

Still, in my divine nihilism, I still believe there`s some form of spiritual existence after death, just another dimension conscious thought energy escapes into once the vessel that holds it is destroyed.....

Asurai · 12-12-2004, 02:26 PM

I'm going to use that story. 'Tis beautiful.

As anyone who examines my quote can probably tell, my 'vote' goes into the There-is-a-god column. Rather, into the G*D-Exists column.

Disfunction · 12-12-2004, 02:48 PM

There's some research that's been done, and one of their findings is that people with a certain gene in lieu of another tend to have a greater tendency of being spiritual. So, as for the whole story above, I guess it's the same circumstance; if there is a God, some people just don't have enough money.

dollclans · 12-12-2004, 03:20 PM

yes, my first thought on this story was that the customers' what you may call a "comparison" about the barber's existance to god's existance was also to do with money. anyone is supposibly able to pray to god for forgivness and what not, but not everyone has the money to go to the barbershop and have their hair trimmed. it really is a stupid little story, but i thought i'd post it anyway to see what you all thought.

Asurai · 12-12-2004, 04:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

So, as for the whole story above, I guess it's the same circumstance; if there is a God, some people just don't have enough money.

If by "money" you mean "morality," then that could, I suppose, be accurate. But the general principle about God is that anyone, regardless of financial or moral state, can seek Him. (Or Her, or It, if you prefer.)

Disfunction · 12-12-2004, 04:12 PM

No, you, Asurai, misunderstand entirely. Believing in a deity isn't a matter of "morality" it's a matter of "spirituality" and not everyone actually can believe in a God. Ever notice that there are atheists and then fundementalists? One can't believe, one can't not believe.

Those that can are the ones with the money to get trimmed by the barber; those that aren't are the ones without the financial ability.

Edit: Not to mention that there are indeed moralistically driven atheists; religion isn't about morals.

Do a net search on the following: crusades, spanish inquisition, salem witch trials I'd list more, but you get the idea, I hope.

centurion · 12-12-2004, 04:34 PM

I`ve just always wondered why every theological argument is generally judeo-christian centric.

Being spiritual doesn`t only consist of believing in a monotheistic deity..... I consider myself spiritual, but find the ideas behind Buddhism a lot closer to the truth....

Asurai · 12-12-2004, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

No, you, Asurai, misunderstand entirely. Believing in a deity isn't a matter of "morality" it's a matter of "spirituality" and not everyone actually can believe in a God. Ever notice that there are atheists and then fundementalists? One can't believe, one can't not believe.

The thing about genes is that they aren't 100% absolute in regards to personality. Enviornment and other factors have a significant claim to the results and methods of thought, and even then it's possible for the human mind (in a few stronger cases) to force itself to change how it thinks.

Not many people believe anymore that personality is based 100% unchangeably upon heredity. That went out with beliefs such as that criminality is entirely genetic, and so that criminals should be... prevented from breeding.

And you'll also notice, I'm sure, that many atheists become believers and that many believers become atheists.

Asurai · 12-12-2004, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

Edit: Not to mention that there are indeed moralistically driven atheists; religion isn't about morals.

Do a net search on the following: crusades, spanish inquisition, salem witch trials I'd list more, but you get the idea, I hope.

First, the Crusades were a defensive response against an outside conquerer.

Second, 2000 people died in the Spanish Inquisition, and slightly less than 20 at Salem. Compare those numbers to the number killed by atheistic communists in this century alone -- in excess of 100 million.

Third, true religion IS about morality, about good and evil. Whether Judaic, Buddhist, Christian, or whatever, a true religion teaches the difference and exhorts its followers to practice the good and shun the evil.

Disfunction · 12-12-2004, 04:55 PM

What about the 30+ million killed during the holocaust at the hands of christians?

The statement I am making is that the genes have SOME influence and SOME is enough to have a relevant stake in whether someone does or doesn't believe. I literally CANNOT believe, because I have a psychological condition that causes me to doubt everything and pessimistically have faith in nothing.

Are you telling me that I have a choice to believe? Because if so, you are blind. It's not a choice that everyone has the luxury of commiting to one course or the other; it's not a choice at all. I was once a believer because it was the thing I was supposed to do, nay, TAUGHT to do. Then my life changed. Everything changed, and my depression set in. There is no god in a world of intellectual depression. (Yes I called myself an intellectual)

Disfunction · 12-12-2004, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by centurion

I`ve just always wondered why every theological argument is generally judeo-christian centric.

Being spiritual doesn`t only consist of believing in a monotheistic deity..... I consider myself spiritual, but find the ideas behind Buddhism a lot closer to the truth....

Spirituality has absolutely nothing to do with religion; spirituality is individual, religion is communal. Religion is an attempt to harness or even explain spiritual tendencies or leanings. Frankly, there are too many options saying they are right for me to choose any. I choose believe as I do; I know the moral right and wrong, do unto others, etc. The golden rule is the only rule I adhere to since independent of manipulation, it's perfectly valid.

Asurai · 12-12-2004, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

What about the 30+ million killed during the holocaust at the hands of christians?

I love it when people use that line.

Hitler was not Christian. He was an occultist who treated Catholics just as he treated Jews. His trusted advisors and leaders were all occultists. The Hitler Youth regularly sang a song that said something about killing Jews, and then: "...and let's all be godless again."

Quote:

I literally CANNOT believe, because I have a psychological condition that causes me to doubt everything and pessimistically have faith in nothing.

You'll forgive me for prying, I hope, but I assume that enviornmental factors or experiences also lead to this condition...?

Yes, genes may influence spirituality in a person, but your statement that certain persons cannot believe because of heredity is... not quite accurate, I believe.

I, too, have always been a very questioning person. I hesitate to use the word "intellectual," but I've always been studious and doubtful of anything that cannot be demonstrably proven. I was once agnostic, and though I remain quite skeptical of most things, there is no question in my mind of whether God exists.

Perhaps you're right that no-one can merely choose to believe or disbelieve, but I nonetheless think that a person can choose to try to seek after God.

Quote:

Originally Posted by er, someone else... whose name I can't recall and am too lazy to look for...

I`ve just always wondered why every theological argument is generally judeo-christian centric.

Probably because Judaic faiths account for more believers than any other religion in the world. Still, nothing about these arguments has been absolutely Judeo-Christian. The terminology that I've used may be so, but that doesn't mean that the arguments themselves applies only to the Judeo-Christian group. Buddhism, too, after all, teaches morality.

Disfunction · 12-12-2004, 05:24 PM

That's quite the interesting one... because from what I had learned, the Christians weren't stuck in the ovens... Wooops... nihilism and teenage rebellion slipping in there.

At any rate... Depression is a chemical imbalance in the brain that has been triggered by experiences, though situational depression can be purely independent of surroudings. I suffer from a massive lack of self-esteem (situational) and from that lack of self-esteem my depression (hereditary) is more difficult to remove as I often carry a hefty amount of self-loathing, none of which has been something I opted for. I never prayed to god and said "let me hate myself"... and I did indeed once believe in a god; never as the christian faiths portray him mind you. But there's come a point now when I can't feel one bit of spirituality inside of me. In fact, I can barely feel any emotions appropriate to a given stimuli... A lot of my behaviours I do because I was taught that it's the correct response and I use logic, not empathetic morals to define what then is okay and what is not ok.

My whole point isn't even that god doesn't exist, just that many people are more heavily inclined to believing in SOMETHING while I myself never actually felt it. And what I just typed up there is characteristic of a psychopath... Except for some discrepencies (spelling has declined... I think) that allow for me to carry some baseline emotional triggers via certain people... Anyway... that's WAY too much information about me.

I can't believe in a God and I have tried. I've tried hard... and I've fallen.

Asurai · 12-12-2004, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

...I use logic, not empathetic morals to define what then is okay and what is not ok.

. . .

I can't believe in a God and I have tried. I've tried hard... and I've fallen.

Morals and the concept of good and evil are heavily based in logic, or at least enforced by it today.

I hope that your depression goes away. It's not a natural condition, so there always remains some hope that the chemical imbalance, in some way or another, will eventually be cured. Perhaps then you may believe -- it has its own benefits; spiritual persons tend to live longer and healthier, after all. And there would be, in your case, the notable causal effect of not being constantly depressed.

(I'm trying very hard to not turn evangelical and start preaching, by the way. So I'm going for now. :wink: )

And you're right: people in general feel the need to believe in something. Some people argue that that itself is God's calling to persons.

Right, right. Going. Later.

Jane13 · 12-12-2004, 07:01 PM

We could just ask... I'm getting a maybe.

Granny-like_the_apple · 12-12-2004, 11:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurai

I was once agnostic, and though I remain quite skeptical of most things, there is no question in my mind of whether God exists.

I'm really curious as to why that is. Do you mind explaining your reasoning behind this?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Asurai

And you're right: people in general feel the need to believe in something. Some people argue that that itself is God's calling to persons.

I'm assuming that you're one of those people? Correct me if I'm wrong, before I start ranting about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TStone

Quote:

Originally Posted by Disfunction

That's quite the interesting one... because from what I had learned, the Christians weren't stuck in the ovens... Wooops... nihilism and teenage rebellion slipping in there.

Actually, there is documentation supporting the fact of Hitler’s fascination with the occult, and it’s just as likely little grey men from the earth’s core told him to annihilate Jews to facilitate the next evolution of humankind.

He marched to the tune of a different drummer (we’ll say the drummer in this case was handicapped and beat a maniacal beat on the old cow skins…say, someone like John Bonham) and if the little grey dudes had told him it was open season on Christianity?

But those little grey men didn't tell him it was open season on Christianity, which is why Asurai's statement that "He [...] treated Catholics just as he treated Jews" isn't so much true.

As for the rest of your post... you lost me. Oh well.

centurion · 12-13-2004, 04:12 AM

Well, being one will still a leaning towards the occult, I would have to say if Hitler was an explorer in the occult, he would have discovered the spiritual realm, thus he would have found that his pasty white flesh and caucasian nose are absolutely meaningless in the scope of eternity..... as he would have discovered race to be a human created thing of the flesh, and after death, our souls are a clean slate, with no "race" or "nation" to make us special, only our own mind, thus all physical life forms are in essence equal.....

I don`t know, I feel an extreme amount of sadness and depression every day, and it IS clinical and hereditary, yet nothing makes me want to doubt everything and close my mind in cynical skepticism..... I simply refuse to believe in one absolute truth, choosing instead to explore all possibilities, and one can only do this by opening their mind to the world, to everything we see, hear, and experience, and making it part of ourselves. Truth is what one wishes it to be.....

Loy · 12-13-2004, 06:03 AM

Asurai-OK, so I've avoided this thread for fear of getting into some argument that does nothing but become a locking of horns, but after reading some of your posts, I have to ask this question-who the fuck was your history teacher because I want to smack the ever living shit out of them for getting some basic facts wrong. And if your misunderstanding of history (or, as I am also seeing it now that I've re-read your posts, reinterpreting facts to fit your needs while leaving out the contexts of said facts) is actually your own doing, let me say this-twisting and misconstruing facts to fit your argument is a low fucking way to push forth an idea.

I would also suggest you boning up on philosophy, spirituality, and theology before making any blanket statements about any of them, since anybody who's ever taken a 101 college course on any of them could rip your statements into shreds (and considering the condescension and egotism that seems to be the base behind them, I could see these college freshmen having a shitload of fun doing so).

Believe what you want to believe, I don't care. Fuck with facts and meanings of specific concepts, and you're just putting a bullseye on your ass.

Hunter · 12-13-2004, 08:30 AM

Centurion, actually Hitler was very obsessed with the occult. He had large portions of the SS devoted to archeological work by which he hoped to discover ancient weapons or other less physical ways to gain a millitary advantage. I think the most famous bit of archaelogy they did was in search of Atlantis. Hitler believed that the aryan race had descended from this perfect race of beings who had dwelt in Atlantis and that by destroying all non aryan's he could somehow cause humanity to somehow become like the ancient atlanteans again. He may have been obsessed with the occult but he stayed far away from any spiritual side of it, more into the realms of the Ceremonial Magicians who are by and large either agnostic or atheist and have very little in the way of a moral system.

Deadhymn · 12-13-2004, 09:09 AM

Loy, you beat me to it.

Asurai - How do you defend the church that wiped out the ENTIRE civilizations of Aztec, Incan, and Mayan native americans? How all of your european christian heroes annhilated 9/10ths of the North American natives in a little less than 400 years? Or how about the destruction of indigenous cultures and art work around the world in an attempt to make them believe in a god they did fine without for thousands of years. Care to explain to me how on fucking earth the crusades were a defensive action? did a bunch of middle easter insurgents attack London? i must have missed that.

Empty_Purple_Stars · 12-13-2004, 11:36 AM

PROOF THAT GOD EXISTS AND HE HAS A SENSE OF HUMOR!!

http://www.click2houston.com/news/3990428/detail.html

:shock:

EWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

centurion · 12-14-2004, 05:10 AM

I think morals are basically instinctual.... we know what causes damage, death, and pain to fellow human beings, and we also know how to help each other...... we know the difference between kindness and hate, compassion and violence......
Religion bring the complication of morals, thus leading us away from instinct into having to rely upon a human being`s doctrine to define right and wrong.

Actually all human beings do this, and whether you follow a religion or not, in the end you always change the rules to suit yourself.