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Old 10-20-2011, 06:45 AM   #126
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There are rampant injustices everywhere in the world in the sex trade, but it doesn't mean everyone in that trade is treated unjustly.

I not saying dismiss, deny or deflect any attention or concern about those injustices. I'm just saying do not paint every person who works in that field with the same brush. You seem intent on doing so.
You're making the same argument as Elystan.
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Old 10-20-2011, 07:25 AM   #127
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A lot of the industry is different here.

In Australia it is legal to work as a prostitute, but illegal to make any money from another persons work, so that means that pimping and running a brothel is illegal. Brothels are legal, but with the definition that they are a premises that only two workers can use at a time and that they are not 'run' by a madame or something along those lines. What you tend to have is a brothel that will hire an assistant to make appointments, answer phones etc. and many of them also have security hired to keep the workers safe.

@Saya - I agree with what you say, and I don't think that I was really clear in my post. I was responding to the post previous to mine and not to the rest of the thread. I should have quote tagged it to make my intention more clear. I make such a point about the difference between sex trafficking and the sex industry because I am usually up against people (often health workers and cops) who have the opinion that anyone involved in the industry is a junkie and doesn't deserve to be treated as a person. This is problematic on SO many levels... not in the least in that even if someone is a junkie they are STILL a freaking human. I have nursed a **** victim and had a cop refer to her as a 'non-human' casualty because she was ***** by a client of hers - the only time I really really lost my temper at work.

I'm not used to talking about this with people who do understand that those who get involved in the industry because they have no choice or because of trafficking are human beings - so I tend to create a divide when talking about it to show people that these situations aren't really people who are WORKING in the industry, but are people who are basically caught up as slaves.

I'm not saying that I don't think that the whole entire industry doesn't need to be overhauled. I actually think that would solve a lot of problems. If you legalise and legitimise sex work as a job, then you take away a lot of the power that the pimps and traffickers have.

I am not so naive to not understand that it is true that MOST people who are involved in sex work are being exploited and don't have a choice about what they do - especially in the current economic climate. I am simply saying that my personal experience is different from that... that I enjoy what I do, that it hasn't made me jaded, that I don't have 'dead stripper eyes' as someone talked about before... and I am aware of my level of privilege and recognise that a lot of these things are due to the fact that I have that privilege.
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Old 10-20-2011, 08:11 AM   #128
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That wasn't what I was saying, and you know it.

There are rampant injustices everywhere in the world in the sex trade, but it doesn't mean everyone in that trade is treated unjustly.

I not saying dismiss, deny or deflect any attention or concern about those injustices. I'm just saying do not paint every person who works in that field with the same brush. You seem intent on doing so.
No, I don't know it. When you try to push away injustice just because it worked out for a friend, you're dismissing the reality for 97% of prostituted women.

And we have said over and over that we know it works for some people, but overwhelmingly it doesn't and that is why we don't consider it empowering work.

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Old 10-20-2011, 09:14 AM   #129
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[color="SeaGreen"]A lot of the industry is different here.

In Australia it is legal to work as a prostitute, but illegal to make any money from another persons work, so that means that pimping and running a brothel is illegal. Brothels are legal, but with the definition that they are a premises that only two workers can use at a time and that they are not 'run' by a madame or something along those lines. What you tend to have is a brothel that will hire an assistant to make appointments, answer phones etc. and many of them also have security hired to keep the workers safe.
That I'm way more okay with. Brothels still make me uncomfortable because you don't have time to get to know who's coming through the door. Do the security guards watch to make sure everything stays okay, or is there a panic button or something?
Quote:
@Saya - I agree with what you say, and I don't think that I was really clear in my post. I was responding to the post previous to mine and not to the rest of the thread. I should have quote tagged it to make my intention more clear. I make such a point about the difference between sex trafficking and the sex industry because I am usually up against people (often health workers and cops) who have the opinion that anyone involved in the industry is a junkie and doesn't deserve to be treated as a person. This is problematic on SO many levels... not in the least in that even if someone is a junkie they are STILL a freaking human. I have nursed a **** victim and had a cop refer to her as a 'non-human' casualty because she was ***** by a client of hers - the only time I really really lost my temper at work.
I don't think anyone here feels that way though, and it doesn't make it right. I got to speak to some harm reduction workers who have an organization in Montreal, they meet prostituted women where they are, give safe needles, they have ex sex workers on staff to help give them tips on how to keep safe, and exit programs.

Honestly given how even strippers are given the "you can't possibly be *****" treatment, I don't think its just the "junkie" aspect that makes cops and health workers look down on sex workers. They're among the hardest hit in a **** culture.

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I'm not used to talking about this with people who do understand that those who get involved in the industry because they have no choice or because of trafficking are human beings - so I tend to create a divide when talking about it to show people that these situations aren't really people who are WORKING in the industry, but are people who are basically caught up as slaves.
Where do you make that divide though? Like, if someone becomes a sex worker because of financial needs, but doesn't really see it that way, is she a slave? There's trafficking but there's also monetary coercian; the money is too good to walk away from or you just can't. Like, in Amsterdam, where to use a brothel, you pay hundreds of dollars to use a room for a few hours. If you don't like any of your clients, its kind of too bad because you need to make up for the money you just spent. No one is physically keeping her there but the pressure is on to make money. I wouldn't necessarily call that slavery, but it is something terribly wrong.

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I'm not saying that I don't think that the whole entire industry doesn't need to be overhauled. I actually think that would solve a lot of problems. If you legalise and legitimise sex work as a job, then you take away a lot of the power that the pimps and traffickers have.
I'm all for legalization, I think we agree way more than we thought XD I just think there is in some feminist circles a glamourization of sex work, you know? Like, issues about trafficking are silenced in favour of pushing the idea that its empowering work. I appreciate that's not what you're doing but I'm so used to hearing "We need complete legalization and it will work out", as if it won't create additional problems such as in Amsterdam or there doesn't need to be a overhaul, or that capitalism won't do what capitalism does best, exploitation without legal repercussions. I'm all for legalization, just with a lot of regulations, including keeping pimping illegal and making sure all sex workers have complete agency over their work.

Quote:
I am not so naive to not understand that it is true that MOST people who are involved in sex work are being exploited and don't have a choice about what they do - especially in the current economic climate. I am simply saying that my personal experience is different from that... that I enjoy what I do, that it hasn't made me jaded, that I don't have 'dead stripper eyes' as someone talked about before... and I am aware of my level of privilege and recognise that a lot of these things are due to the fact that I have that privilege.
Again, I appreciate that, and its refreshing.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:18 PM   #130
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[quote=Saya;682725]No, I don't know it. When you try to push away injustice just because it worked out for a friend, you're dismissing the reality for 97% of prostituted women.

And we have said over and over that we know it works for some people, but overwhelmingly it doesn't and that is why we don't consider it empowering work.[quote]


Saying that is like saying that you know BDSM works for some people, but overwhelmingly violence against women doesn't, and that is why you don't consider it acceptable. And I know that's come up before in this thread. I just think you're saying an entire class of women shouldn't have the right to choose what to do with their bodies because of what happens to women in other circumstances ... and because of your perceptions.

Also, too much is made of that adjective "empowering." I wouldn't use that in reference to a lot of forms of employment. So what?
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:33 PM   #131
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I just think you're saying an entire class of women shouldn't have the right to choose what to do with their bodies because of what happens to women in other circumstances ... and because of your perceptions.
The fact that you say this shows that you're not really listening to what Saya's been saying.

Let me ask you something.
It is hypothetically possible, and historically it was probable, that there were black people who were happy with slavery, wouldn't you agree?
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:38 PM   #132
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I suppose that is true, but I don't see the two as comparable. One is an enforced condition, even if the subject accepts the force. The other could be purely chosen without duress, which is the only circumstance under which it would be acceptable.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:42 PM   #133
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Jesus fucking christ, now I'm really pissed at you
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I suppose that is true, but I don't see the two as comparable.
Don't you even dare pull that off when you just asked Saya if she condemns BDSM if she also condemns household violence.
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One is an enforced condition, even if the subject accepts the force. The other could be purely chosen without duress
Prostitution is chosen without duress? Or the privileged ones who DO choose it without duress are what you mean when they're chosen without duress? Notice the redundancy?
Again, I could say the same thing about slavery: indentured servants was a decision. Therefore, what do you think of slavery with that mindset?
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:49 PM   #134
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I suppose that is true, but I don't see the two as comparable. One is an enforced condition, even if the subject accepts the force. The other could be purely chosen without duress, which is the only circumstance under which it would be acceptable.
'Could purely be chosen without duress'... yes, and being the murder victim of a cannibal could also be chosen without duress (Der Metzgermeister and Bernd Jürgen Brandes), but seriously?
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:53 PM   #135
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I don't get the comparisons, honestly. I'm saying that being a slave or being eaten by a cannibal subjectively can be seen by nearly everyone as unquestionably being a negative, harmful experience. But I don't get where everyone assumes there can be NO WAY a man or woman would choose to make a living having sex for money and that it could be a happy, healthy and productive experience for them.
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Old 10-20-2011, 11:57 PM   #136
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Who are YOU to judge the people who willfully would cast themselves into slavery o willingly accept to be eaten?
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:00 AM   #137
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It's not that nobody recognizes it, Ben.

It's like saying that while some people in AMERICA live beneath the poverty line, some people are millionaires and we have to recognize them, too.

I feel like I'm repeating myself.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:05 AM   #138
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It's like saying that while some people in AMERICA live beneath the poverty line, some people are millionaires and we have to recognize them, too.
I don't think that's the same either, but would you propose it should be illegal to be a millionaire? Is that the way to help the people below the poverty line?
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:06 AM   #139
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That I'm way more okay with. Brothels still make me uncomfortable because you don't have time to get to know who's coming through the door. Do the security guards watch to make sure everything stays okay, or is there a panic button or something?

Most places have panic buttons, but security is usually very good at sizing someone up when they first arrive.

Most of the work that I do are out calls.

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Where do you make that divide though? Like, if someone becomes a sex worker because of financial needs, but doesn't really see it that way, is she a slave? There's trafficking but there's also monetary coercian; the money is too good to walk away from or you just can't. Like, in Amsterdam, where to use a brothel, you pay hundreds of dollars to use a room for a few hours. If you don't like any of your clients, its kind of too bad because you need to make up for the money you just spent. No one is physically keeping her there but the pressure is on to make money. I wouldn't necessarily call that slavery, but it is something terribly wrong.

I agree that it is terribly wrong, but isn't this the situation that people are in with a lot of jobs anyway? People who work for Walmart are oppressed by their own company and put up with it because they need the money (seriously, that company is fucked up!)

There are things that I would never do for money... it is just that those things for me include working for Walmart and don't include having sex with people. I personally would find working for Walmart more degrading and dehumanising than prostitution, but then again I have never been in a situation where I have been forced to make the choice to work for Walmart.

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I'm all for legalization, I think we agree way more than we thought XD I just think there is in some feminist circles a glamourization of sex work, you know? Like, issues about trafficking are silenced in favour of pushing the idea that its empowering work. I appreciate that's not what you're doing but I'm so used to hearing "We need complete legalization and it will work out", as if it won't create additional problems such as in Amsterdam or there doesn't need to be a overhaul, or that capitalism won't do what capitalism does best, exploitation without legal repercussions. I'm all for legalization, just with a lot of regulations, including keeping pimping illegal and making sure all sex workers have complete agency over their work.
I agree with you about those that glamourise sex work. There is nothing glamorous about it - but I feel the same way about nursing as well. There was a documentary that I saw eons ago about a group of dancers that Unionised... it was brilliant. I agree that just legalising a broken system isn't going to help... it needs to be corrected and legislated properly, there needs to be an introduction of workers rights to protect those in the profession.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:07 AM   #140
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Who are YOU to judge the people who willfully would cast themselves into slavery o willingly accept to be eaten?
I was countering your judgments about people who say they enjoy getting paid to have sex.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:09 AM   #141
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Show me where I judged people who pay to have sex and I'll give you my fucking car.

You're really having your own little fabricated fight up there in your head, aren't you?
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:09 AM   #142
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I don't get the comparisons, honestly. I'm saying that being a slave or being eaten by a cannibal subjectively can be seen by nearly everyone as unquestionably being a negative, harmful experience. But I don't get where everyone assumes there can be NO WAY a man or woman would choose to make a living having sex for money and that it could be a happy, healthy and productive experience for them.
No body is saying that there is no way someone can choose prostitution and find it a positive experience.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:13 AM   #143
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I don't think that's the same either, but would you propose it should be illegal to be a millionaire? Is that the way to help the people below the poverty line?
Actually, yes it would help them - if the wealth was redistributed. But that is aside from the point... the point is that NO ONE HERE IS SAYING THAT ALL PROSTITUTES ARE OPPRESSED, JUST THAT A MAJORITY OF THEM ARE. And AS SOMEONE WHO IS A SEX WORKER I see that every day and it is something that does have to be changed.

Can you not see that?
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:17 AM   #144
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Miss Absynthe, I actually think some people here are saying those cases are so few and far between that they shouldn't be considered against the tremendous amount of abuse and enslavement that occurs in the industry.

But your previous statement was a pretty good summation of what needed to be said. The rush to de-glamorize sex work has pushed opinion too far in the other direction. I was particularly glad to see your comment about job choices, and how having to choose a job like working at walmart could be portrayed as "slavery" in a certain light.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:23 AM   #145
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I agree the rampant abuses and oppression should be changed. I've said so. Protection by law, reform and regulation are largely necessary.

I saw statements here that said the equivalent of "I'm sure there are a FEW women that might be okay doing this for a living, but ..." and was reacting simply to the perception that there is no way a healthy human being would choose this. The "buts" in those statements were discounting and dismissive.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:37 AM   #146
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I agree the rampant abuses and oppression should be changed. I've said so. Protection by law, reform and regulation are largely necessary.

I saw statements here that said the equivalent of "I'm sure there are a FEW women that might be okay doing this for a living, but ..." and was reacting simply to the perception that there is no way a healthy human being would choose this. The "buts" in those statements were discounting and dismissive.
You are making so many assumptions about what people are saying... even the example that you give doesn't logically follow as being true. The statement 'I'm sure there are a FEW women that might be okay doing this for a living, but...' is not saying that no healthy person would choose this, it is saying that there are a few people who choose it but that the majority of people who find themselves doing it are there because they have to be for whatever reasons. This is actually borne out in the statistics that Saya cited.

If someone is working in this industry through choice then it is because they are privileged in some way that gives them power over their circumstances... whether it is money, education, race or gender. I'm saying that those of us who do have that social currency need to be using it to change the system and not just to make our own lives better.
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Old 10-21-2011, 12:45 AM   #147
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I don't think I was mistaken about what I was seeing, but I definitely agree with the conclusion of your second paragraph.
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Old 10-21-2011, 04:39 PM   #148
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Saying that is like saying that you know BDSM works for some people, but overwhelmingly violence against women doesn't, and that is why you don't consider it acceptable. And I know that's come up before in this thread. I just think you're saying an entire class of women shouldn't have the right to choose what to do with their bodies because of what happens to women in other circumstances ... and because of your perceptions.

Also, too much is made of that adjective "empowering." I wouldn't use that in reference to a lot of forms of employment. So what?
You are such a fucking jackass sometimes, you know that? Where have I said that women shouldn't have the right? Did I not just fucking say in the post RIGHT BEFORE YOURS that I think it should be legalized?

Sometimes you're the textbook definition of mansplaining.
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Old 10-21-2011, 05:27 PM   #149
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I am glad that he is here... after all, someone has to tell the wimminz about things.
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Old 10-21-2011, 07:46 PM   #150
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BDSM = consensual

domestic violence = non-consensual

World of difference. That is all.



Yeah, you wimminz gets all uptight about man-stuff. Y'all needz a man to splain impo'tent stuff.
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