Katrina and NOLA flood Politics...

[MrMaelstrom]

Sorry Al, but seen as no man is an island, the tragedy belongs to anyone and everyone with a heart.

This thread was created specifically so that people could post their thoughts on the political side of the issue (You may just want to call it the blame game).

Peter and E_E have differed on a few subjects already, but, in spite of differences, both seem to be gentlemen enough to continue or suspend their hostilities without resorting to basic insults.

Things are often read by us that make us feel like our debating adversary is implying something. It often isn't so and I feel this to be just another example.

Al, I'm quite sure a lot of things you're bound to read here are things you'll disagree to the point of revulsion (if I know you as well as I don't), but it still doesn't disallow someone to post their opinions, no matter how trashy they might be.

Maybe you should stay away from this specific thread untill most of the worst is over.

The Katrina thread exists in the General forum so that concerned people may find out what's going on and how to help.

But many of us feel there's something political to debate here, and want to do it now, rather than later. And this is exactly the place to do it.

Sorry if this feels insensitive to you, but people who are concerned over their relatives and friends have better things to do right now than play the blame game, so they won't be coming to this thread, but to the thread that matters to them.



But no matter how we may empathize with the anxiety and despair that they are feeling, debating the political side of what's going on doesn't make us ruthless bastards.

It would if we were to post this in the General forum. Not here.

I mean, if this tragedy is enough for EPS to somehow question the integrity of her commander-in-chief, then just maybe there is something here to debate, or at the very least, to clarify, regarding politicians who the people elected to represent them and to ensure their protection (meaning mayors, governors, presidents and even relief agencies like FEMA or the Red Cross).

I apologize if it offends you that I say this in public.

[AlKilyu]

Yeah. I'm just saying you shouldn't cut down those down in the muck trying to do something. And trust me that's happening, disgusting or not.

[MrMaelstrom]

Shit, you're fast!

[AlKilyu]

Mael: Just for an example, after the UK suffered terrorist attacks earlier this year, how many (American) gothiteers were bashing Tony Blair? Or the shooting of a man who turned out to be unarmed and not affiliated with any terrorist group?

[Spazik]

^I never insulted the guys down in the muck. I'm insulting the guy who flew over the muck four days afterwards in his private jet, the FEMA director he instituted, and the Department of Homeland Security that he helped create. The people that are there trying to fix the problem are doing a great job, especially considering how much the Bush Empire has fouled things up.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Alright I'm tired of you chastising us on a tragedy that isn't even yours. Strive to be above eurotrash. If you can't argue your point without resorting to bullshit like this then just don't do it.

And Spaz (aptly named) you honestly have nothing of sustenance to add due greatly in part to the fact you aren't even trying.

Where did I chastise you on a tragedy that isn't mine?

I'm sorry for being Eurotrash for knowing your government fucked up.

[Spazik]

Originally Posted by Peter

Where did I chastise you on a tragedy that isn't mine?

I'm sorry for being Eurotrash for knowing your government fucked up.

Republicans don't like it when you question their authority.

[Peter]

Originally Posted by AlKilyu

Mael: Just for an example, after the UK suffered terrorist attacks earlier this year, how many (American) gothiteers were bashing Tony Blair? Or the shooting of a man who turned out to be unarmed and not affiliated with any terrorist group?

Many of my friends questioned what happened and whether Blair was to blame, and rightly so too, just because they aren't English doesn't mean they have to shut up about it. Another name for the blame game is accountability, the buck stops here as Truman had on his desk.

Please excuse most of the replies being to you, but when I think one of my friends is just plain wrong, I tell them, in much the same way as you to me.

[Spazik]

Taken from FARK:

The Outstanding Public Debt as of 08 Sep 2005 at 02:48:40 PM GMT is:




$7,950,509,732,646.41



The U.S. National Debt Clock


A major American city, one that's critical to our national energy and trade infrastructure, has been basically DESTROYED.

AND, don't forget, we are still fighting two major wars.

Keep in mind the above figure dosen't include the staggering shortfalls in long term Medicare and Social Security funding.

The interest payments alone on that debt is comparable in size to our entire national defense budget.

You know, we don't have to dump all this new debt on our kids and grandkids. We could instead roll back some of those tax cuts on the most well-off of our citizens.

When Clinton put those taxes in place, the conservatives biatched and pissed and moaned that they would kill economic growth.

Well, it didn't. On the contrary, the economy boomed and the budget actually got balanced.

With two wars and a major city destroyed, I think it's about time we as a nation put down the credit cards and talk about national shared sacrifice.

I LONG for the days when being a conservative meant you were fiscially responsible.

Racking up deficits like this is anything but.

Now all most conservatives do is stammer out that 6 Trillion in national debt isn't all that bad. Neither is 7 Trillion. 8 Trillon? No problem. really. No need to raise taxes. The nation can handle it.

There are, of course, a few idiots who want the national government to collapse under the debt load. There are some other fools who think there's no need to worry because the Christian End times is upon us.

These people, who are almost completely out of touch with reality, have a frightening amount of influence on our decision makers today.

Unless we get some responsible, accountable, grown-up LEADERS in Washington, I fear we are heading for a national disaster that will make Hurricane Katrina look like a tea party.

-User Riche

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Spazik

Republicans don't like it when you question their authority.

This is not a partisan issue for me, I'd be just as disgusted if the Feds failed under Democrat administration.

I am a centrist afterall.

[MrMaelstrom]

This is my opinion on Katrina, War and the economy (and it ain't new) = someone is straight out lying to you. Someone is lining their pockets, and I believe it's being done at the expense and trust of the american people (and indirectly, the rest of the world).

It's easy to see how this would offend a republican american. It implies that you're stupid.

That's not how I see it. I feel that the ordinary US citizen is fed the red, white and blue since birth and has a certain faith and confidence in their country and chosen leaders that the rest of the world has long ago lost.

If this means we don't come anywhere close to you in having the confidence to do the things you do, it also means that it's alot harder to pull the wool over our eyes than it is to do it to yours.

It's my firm opinion that many of you prefer having the wool over your eyes than to face what is an otherwise nightmarish truth.

As an example, no one here wants to see gay people treated differently than straight people. No one here wants to see the separation of church and state dissolved. No one here wants big business to go unchecked and unregulated.

But somehow, someone embodying all of this has the support of many members here.

Would it be so if most american citizens weren't brought up never to question their leaders?

I admit you have a sort of cute little flag, but the most importnt thing you ever done for the world was writing the constitution of the United States of America, which was designed to protect its citizens from anusurping government.

Your constitution set the standard for the modern world, and the modern world, for one, doesn't want to backtrack.

Demeaning as it may sound to most of you here, this is how I feel.

[Spazik]

Originally Posted by Peter

This is not a partisan issue for me, I'd be just as disgusted if the Feds failed under Democrat administration.

I am a centrist afterall.

Oh, I'm independent as well, I just look out for my freedom and constitutional rights. Democrats try and take away civil liberties with things such as affirmative action and emminent domain. I just find I lean left more than right because Republicans are typically the authoritarian, oppresive party that tries to infringe on American's civil liberties, and the Bush administration has practically tried to repeal the constitution during his reign.

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by Spazik

Republicans don't like it when you question their authority.

To be fair, I am a registered Republican..

That was more than a bit of a generalization there man...

And I have already said I am more than a bit disgusted by what I have seen many of the respresentatives of my political parties do or not do..

But I have seen many heinous mistakes made by politicans on the other side of the fence..

And the only way we are going to be able to fully analyze this situation is with facts, not venom.

This is the WORST national disaster our country has ever experienced, and the fact remains, if this is how we respond to a disaster we knew was coming a WEEK before it hit, then what in the HOLY FUCK are we going to do when the inevitable Biological or Chemical attack happens, WITHOUT WARNING, on a much larger scale..

I dont see this a strictly a "Party Line" issue, I see this as a national failure on almost every level of our government..

Please keep that in mind, when you guys are debating this very volatile issue..

And Peter,

I whole heartedly understand and agree that we must seem like a giant bunch of incompetent idiots to the rest of the world..

You are more than justified in your perceptions of us as a Nation right now.

Just understand we feel the same here, except it hurts more because they are our friends, family and countrymen..

The wiser you are, the more you believe in equality, because the difference between what the most and the least learned people know is inexpressibly trivial in realtion to all that is unkonwn."

~Albert Einstien

[Spazik]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

This is the WORST national disaster our country has ever experienced, and the fact remains, if this is how we respond to a disaster we knew was coming a WEEK before it hit, then what in the HOLY FUCK are we going to do when the inevitable Biological or Chemical attack happens, WITHOUT WARNING, on a much larger scale..

I dont see this a strictly a "Party Line" issue, I see this as a national failure on almost every level of our government..

Well, I can definatly agree with you on that. Our government is basically fucked beyond all recognition. The two parties of America are the same as the two parties of Rome, and now that the Barbarians (Read: Terrorists) are beating at the door, our empire is already tearing itself apart without their help. I predict anarchy within my lifetime.

[MrMaelstrom]

I just read what was posted while I wrote my dribble, and Al: I remember having a completely different opinion than Binkie on the Madrid Attacks in how they related to Spains stand on Iraq.
My opinion was shared by most spaniards (the whole fucking country, in fact).
But not a single person attacked Binkie on her opinions, which I might add resembled something akin to "if you hadn't taken your troops out of Iraq, this wouldn't have happened" or "those people died because of the people who think like you".
Of course she said nothing of the kind, but that's how it was perceived by me.

Not a very sensitive thing to say 'round here. Still, no one bitched her about her opinions, much less that they came from an american who proved time and time again to applaud most, if not all of her governments decisions (even after Powell came to the UN and admited to having lied, albeit unknowingly).

Not a single european said americans should have no opinion on it.

The typical american is often portrayed as being a loudmouth.
Many of you are, but then, so are many here, and we're as proud as you for being loudmouths.

[MrMaelstrom]

Oh, and I hated Clinton's guts too.

And If americans want a real american hero in the White House, then vote for Lance Armstrong. Now there's a hero.

[MrMaelstrom]

Well put, EPS... I'm sorry I missed your post at 1st.

[MrMaelstrom]

And EPS, if you're not being partizan, then how come insomnia sucks a big, hairy left nut and not a right one, huh?


*ducks

[Empty_Purple_Stars]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

And EPS, if you're not being partizan, then how come insomnia sucks a big, hairy left nut and not a right one, huh?


*ducks

Cuz the hair got sucked off the Right one, during sleepless night number ONE!!

Go Team !

[Peter]

Originally Posted by Empty_Purple_Stars

And Peter,

I whole heartedly understand and agree that we must seem like a giant bunch of incompetent idiots to the rest of the world..

You are more than justified in your perceptions of us as a Nation right now.

Just understand we feel the same here, except it hurts more because they are our friends, family and countrymen..

The wiser you are, the more you believe in equality, because the difference between what the most and the least learned people know is inexpressibly trivial in realtion to all that is unkonwn."

~Albert Einstien

That is not the way I perceive your country, I've been there, it's a pretty cool place. That's why I get annoyed, I really do feel for you, a lot of my friends that I've known for years are American, most of them in the Pacific Northwest, but yes, one or two around Louisiana, thank goodness I've had word from them all. Of course it's a less personal issue for me, but I do have friends I haven't seen much in person that I've known for half a decade that I want to see more of.

[AlKilyu]

Mael that one incident with Binkie and Spain, who you claim most Portuguese dislike anyway, is one, compared to your many.

And EPS you can go ahead and speak for yourself. L.A. riots didn't have you calling all black folk ******s now did it?

[AlKilyu]

Wow, I can't say ******s.

[edible_eye]

ha. i thought you edited that out.

this almost makes me want to type in as many no-no words as i can think of to see what the internal editor will allow and what it won't.

i said - almost.

[Binkie]

Originally Posted by MrMaelstrom

But not a single person attacked Binkie on her opinions, which I might add resembled something akin to "if you hadn't taken your troops out of Iraq, this wouldn't have happened" or "those people died because of the people who think like you".

Actually, that resembles nothing close to what I was trying to get across. I was speaking of the future, not the past in how pulling troops would affect the world. And I didn't blame liberals/anti-war people for the Madird attack.

(note: sorry, didn't mean to get off-topic, but that needed to be cleared up)

[Binkie]

..or the London bombings.