Speaking of Ayn Rand...

[KontanKarite]

Meh. All that dick waving is immaterial. We just can't help ourselves when we're talking to a Randian. They're very VERY hard to like.

[Underwater Ophelia]

I feel like every time I say something even slightly political you guys get nuts and pretend you're talking to some insane tyrant hoarding cash and resources.

You argue against points I never even made. I think most wealthy people are bullshit, too. I WORK ON THE MAIN FUCKING LINE. I don't think all social programs should be cut in their entirety, but you're wrong when you say it's rare that these programs get abused.
You claimed the screening is rigorous, but I just can't believe that, when I personally know like 5 people who just fucking lie and then abuse it. And that's not even going around and searching, that's people who will just out and out admit it and they think it's ok.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Meh. All that dick waving is immaterial. We just can't help ourselves when we're talking to a Randian. They're very VERY hard to like.

Yeah, but dude, you even admitted you were just running your mouth. Dislike whomever you want, but don't be dumb about it.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I feel like every time I say something even slightly political you guys get nuts and pretend you're talking to some insane tyrant hoarding cash and resources.

You argue against points I never even made. I think most wealthy people are bullshit, too. I WORK ON THE MAIN FUCKING LINE. I don't think all social programs should be cut in their entirety, but you're wrong when you say it's rare that these programs get abused.
You claimed the screening is rigorous, but I just can't believe that, when I personally know like 5 people who just fucking lie and then abuse it. And that's not even going around and searching, that's people who will just out and out admit it and they think it's ok.

What DO you want to slash then, Ophie? Because whatever it is that these 5 "social parasites" are abusing, I'd like to know why you think it'd be a good idea to cut those programs just to trump those 5 mother fuckers in the face of the LEGIONS of people that need that program.

Rand was shown to be a hypocrite and a pseudonym using, dishonest hyprocrite. So yeah, whatever credibility she had is out the fucking window now.

Just cause you know 5 assholes doesn't mean it's time to start cutting programs for the people that need those programs.

Fact is, whatever it is you're thinking should be cut or made harder to get, I'm thinking it'd be more likely that they become something worse than a parasite instead of something good.

People will always abuse the system. What's your point?

The way you're talking, Ayn Rand would dick slap you right in the tits if she heard one of her disciples talking about keeping some social programs around that DIDN'T involve protecting property.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Yeah, but dude, you even admitted you were just running your mouth. Dislike whomever you want, but don't be dumb about it.

YOU stop being dumb about it first. THEN we'll talk.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

What DO you want to slash then, Ophie? Because whatever it is that these 5 "social parasites" are abusing, I'd like to know why you think it'd be a good idea to cut those programs just to trump those 5 mother fuckers in the face of the LEGIONS of people that need that program.

Rand was shown to be a hypocrite and a pseudonym using, dishonest hyprocrite. So yeah, whatever credibility she had is out the fucking window now.

Just cause you know 5 assholes doesn't mean it's time to start cutting programs for the people that need those programs.

Fact is, whatever it is you're thinking should be cut or made harder to get, I'm thinking it'd be more likely that they become something worse than a parasite instead of something good.

People will always abuse the system. What's your point?

The way you're talking, Ayn Rand would dick slap you right in the tits if she heard one of her disciples talking about keeping some social programs around that DIDN'T involve protecting property.

Again, stop making things up, I'm not fucking married to Rand or anything.

And you already know how I feel about this. Let's focus on the fact that the median income in the area where I work is more than $200,000. I have to be a barista for these people. Believe me that I understand what it is to hate rich people.

[KontanKarite]

Hey. YOU'RE the cat that thinks Rand has good ideas. Not me. So let's wave that shit aside.

So again, WHAT programs do you want cut or stricter? Seriously. Share us your thoughts because you're starting to sound less like an idiot Randian and more like some pissed off liberal.

Didn't you say you were a tea-partier? Lady, what is WITH YOU?

[KontanKarite]

...Guys, I think I made her upset. :-/

[MissCheyenne]

Fuck Ayn Rand and fuck anyone who thinks that cutting welfare/benefits programs is the right way to address abuse of the systems.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

What you're saying would apply to this conversation if I ever said that social programs should be done away with in entirety. You're arguing with someone that isn't here.

Well you sure as hell got one part right. Ayn Rand is TOTALLY not here.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

...Guys, I think I made her upset. :-/

Lol, nah.
Just cooking food and doing resume stuff.

Anyway, no, I'm not a tea partier. I'm actually still not clear what those folk are up to.
To answer your question, I think it should all be stricter, but I understand that making it stricter creates more beaurocracy and is mostly unrealistic.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by MissCheyenne

Fuck Ayn Rand and fuck anyone who thinks that cutting welfare/benefits programs is the right way to address abuse of the systems.

Then what's your solution?

[MissCheyenne]

There is no absolute solution. No matter what system is in place to help people, there's ALWAYS going to be someone out there who will find a way to abuse it for their own gain. Simply put, there ARE some people who are only out for themselves and while more stringent application processes and/or cutting of the welfare system may SEEM like an effective method of stopping the abuse,I believe it will only serve to hurt the people who need it the most.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by MissCheyenne

There is no absolute solution. No matter what system is in place to help people, there's ALWAYS going to be someone out there who will find a way to abuse it for their own gain. Simply put, there ARE some people who are only out for themselves and while more stringent application processes and/or cutting of the welfare system may SEEM like an effective method of stopping the abuse,I believe it will only serve to hurt the people who need it the most.

So you think just letting things go as they are works?

[MissCheyenne]

Obviously, the systems that are in place have flaws that need to be addressed. There is no doubting that. I just don't believe that there is any way of creating a 'perfect' system that only caters for those in genuine need. No system can account for the fickle nature of human behaviour and because of this, it's only the morals and values that a person has that can dictate whether they feel the need or right to abuse what is put in place to help those that have a true need for the welfare system.

I believe that it's the right thing to do to help those that have fallen on hard times through one reason or another and that the welfare and benefits system plays a major part in keeping some people afloat.

I am thoroughly disgusted by those that choose to abuse these systems and i wish that there WERE some way of keeping them out but there is no ideal solution to this problem.

I'm not saying that the systems that are already in place should be left unaltered, I'm just saying that to scrap them completely would be a huge mistake and would lead to serious problems down the road. Desperate people will do desperate things and that's not a place anyone needs to go.

[Alan]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I specified exactly why the evidence in this case didn't apply, I didn't say I didn't care about evidence.
...
If you disagree with things I say, that's cool, but don't make shit up to disagree with.

*ahem*

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

even if it were true, it wouldn't say whether the ideas were actually noble and wise or not.

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

Even if you could prove those things, and had evidence, it wouldn't mean objectivism is inherently bad.

QED.

[Underwater Ophelia]

And I already specified why.

[Alan]

A very mediocre justification that we're not allowing you to get away with. You keep begging the question.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

...most people are lazy and weak.

Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia

I'm talking about people who only take. They're everywhere.

And the thing that's wrong with a society that takes care of its constituents is that other people have to pay for it, and it gets abused like crazy.

Do you think welfare is widely abused because of those five people you know?

When you say it "gets abused like crazy", how many people are you thinking about? I don't know about the US but in the UK the welfare budget is £109 billion and the figures I've seen for welfare fraud are in the £1 to £3 billion range. That's less than 3% loss to fraud even at the upper estimate.

[Spookycreep]

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I am a military brat; my family lived overseas for a total of six years. When my father retired from the service, the family eventually ended up in the inner-city of Baltimore. I was 14- 15 at the time. This move marked the beginning of a nose-dive that I wouldn't come out of for the next 15 years.
My brothers (2) and I stood out like sore thumbs among the inner-city blacks. The values of "the street" were foriegn to us and as far as our peers were concerned, me and my brothers just weren't "black enough".
I guess my brothers thought the new environment was cool, in due time they made the adjustments_ which is to say, they gave in to the peer pressure or maybe even welcomed it. Each, in his adult years has now spent time in the penitentary so I guess no one can say they aren't "black enough" now.
But me? I hated the street from the first moment I laid eyes on it and I resented these idioits telling me what I SHOULD be. All the while, however, my brothers and I were being fed the message that we were either for or against them, and if it was against; this meant that we were ashamed of our race and secretly wanted to be white. Archie Bunker comes in black too but he's just as dumb.
My peers hated me because I listened to "white boy shit". They hated me because I dressed like a hippie, was a hippie. All of this I could deal with. I had enough independence of mind at that age to not give a fuck what they thought. What I wasn't able to deal with at the time was the violence.
I got beat up a few times, robbed alot_ just nickle and dime shit but still, my nickles and dimes. I even ran from a few encounters which saved my ass but did my self-esteem no good whatsoever, but I continued to do as I fucking well pleased. I was in the midst of a holy war. Whether I got my ass kicked or not I knew I wasn't doing a damn thing wrong.
This war went on for two years, my parents seperated and my brothers and I ended up in Washington D.C. living with our mother. Different location, same bullshit. Only now, I didn't have the will to start the fight all over again.
Eventually it got to the point that every time I stepped outside I expected trouble. I found it often enough to wherre I could hardly be accused of being paranoid. Then, reality slipped and shifted side-way. Not knowing who was the enemy and who was not, I soon began to fear every single human being walking around on the planet. EVERYONE had become potentially harmful to me.
This is how my agoraphobia began.
In retrospect it all seems pertty obvious now but at the time that it assumed center stage, I didn't have a clue_ which made the whole thing all the more mysterious and scary. (The mind is a motherfucker. All the logic in the world has no power over a mind gone off track.)
ANYWAY, It was under these circumstances that I discovered the books of Ayn Rand. I was in my early 20s and it didn't take me long to realize I had found an ally. Reading her books was like recieving postcards from a better, saner, sun-lit world. A world where people had nothing more pressing on their minds than the pursuit of their own happiness. Rand was a strange, exciting and new voice saying things that fired my imagination and spoke directly to the shit I'd been through. The things this new voice was saying were things I needed to hear, things like: I have the moral right to my own exsitence, that one's life is not the property of any collective and I do not have to live for the happiness of others.
Rand's ideas didn't do the job of freeing me from my phobia all on their own of course but they played a major role in my understanding now what happened to me. To that extent, say what you want about the crazy bitch from Russia, she will always be a friend to me.
Atlas Shrugged second only to the bible as a most influencial book? Unreal. My fear of humans, opens an eye.

[Despanan]

[Alan]

Three things:

1) Ayn Rand would have hated you too for dressing like a hippie.
2) Tell me one character of Ayn Rand's books that actually finds happiness instead of just hating the world.
3) Tell me what is the difference between that and if a Christian guy had given you some books and you'd be making a defense for Jesus right now.

[Spookycreep]

Originally Posted by Alan

Three things:

1) Ayn Rand would have hated you too for dressing like a hippie.
2) Tell me one character of Ayn Rand's books that actually finds happiness instead of just hating the world.
3) Tell me what is the difference between that and if a Christian guy had given you some books and you'd be making a defense for Jesus right now.

I Yes, I suppose she would have but this wouldn't effect the vaule her ideas have had for me.
II Howard Roark and Dominque Francton from The Fountainhead but especially the former. He didn't hate the world, he never noticed it.
III Jesus was actually the first thing I tried when the shit hit the fan. Hung in there with him for a few years but in the end had to admit he wasn't working. Burned my bible, began calling myself an atheist. The Christian guy didn't work, so I don't get point 3.

[Spookycreep]

Originally Posted by Despanan

Thank you, thank you, but I owe it all to wicked fate.
Took your advice and I'm impressed. It's really great to know that not all people have to dig ditches for a living. I'm sort of digging ditches right now but I hope to be where you are Goddess willing. Sounds like a sun-lit world to me.
And just so you know; your picture is far less intimidating than your pointing avatar.
Pleased to meet you. Very sorry for the rough beginning.

[obama5493]

Originally Posted by JCC

This thread just took a turn off Tedious St. into Awesome Avenue.

What you're saying would apply to this conversation if I ever said that social programs should be done away with in entirety. You're arguing with someone that isn't here.








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