Ignorance.

[JCC]

Alright, this happened in an RE lesson today, we were discussing the concept of war and peace, and the teacher asked people whether they would fight for their country, and the answer was always the same:

"It depends on the reason."

If you're fighting for a reason that's separate to your country, and is not unconditional patriotism, you are fighting for a political cause, you are NOT fighting for your country.

Some of the arguments were ridiculous. People are brainwashed into this glorification of the army, this Islamophobia, and more importantly, they're not aware that the UK and the US are pretty much terrorist states in their own right.

Someone said that wars like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary, the War On Terror to stop things like 9/11. When I pointed out that Al Qaeda was funded by the US in the struggle to defeat the Afghan Marxists because the US agenda was to destroy the Soviet Union, AND that 9/11 was every major government's wet dream because it meant that they could infrige on civilian freedom in the name of the War On Terror, things like the Patriot Act, and the recent story of how a terrorist attempt was foiled by police officers putting unlawful surveillance into a man's home and bugging his telephone lines with no actual evidence, and to invade other countries and basically do whatever they want, someone said "Yeah but the US couldn't predict what Al Qaeda were going to do at that time, they were just freedom fighters and were revered by the people because that's whom they were fighting for."

Of course, this person didn't know that in 1993, Al Qaeda had already tried and failed to bomb the World Trade Center, so how could the US possibly be in the dark on their Islamic Extremism and their terrorist activity? Furthermore, nobody knew that Israel was invading Palestine. NOBODY.

I fucking despair for humanity.

[TheBloodEternity]

Originally Posted by JCC

Some of the arguments were ridiculous. People are brainwashed into this glorification of the army, this Islamophobia, and more importantly, they're not aware that the UK and the US are pretty much terrorist states in their own right.

Someone said that wars like the war in Iraq and Afghanistan are necessary, the War On Terror to stop things like 9/11.

Really?? There is only one person in my high school that I've talked to that believes the war in Iraq is necessary, a handful that glorify the army, and precious few that are Islamaphobes.
Then again... I remember you saying something about going to a Parochial school, so that would explain a bit.

[Fatbaby]

I would fight for this country yet I will not fight for this government.

[Deadmanwalking_05]

Same here F.B.

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

I would fight for this country yet I will not fight for this government.

Wait, do you mean the country itself?
Like...the soil?

[Deadmanwalking_05]

I'm talking about an invasion (Which is highly unlikely,but if it happened I wouldn't kindly step aside,not saying I'm a one man army but I would give it a shot)

[Fatbaby]

A country is the land (a area of land bordered by oceans and the national boundaries of other nations) and the people that take residence there. Do you want me to define government as well?

[Saya]

A country is the land and population a government controls. So more or less fighting for a country is fighting for the government. All an invasion and war is is an attempt at changing who taxes you.

[Fatbaby]

Originally Posted by Saya

A country is the land and population a government controls. So more or less fighting for a country is fighting for the government. All an invasion and war is is an attempt at changing who taxes you.

That is asinine to equate one term with the other.
Government is the system of rule by which a state, community or country is Governed. A war is waged to take control of the land and resources that another nation controls.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

That is asinine to equate one term with the other.
Government is the system of rule by which a state, community or country is Governed. A war is waged to take control of the land and resources that another nation controls

A war is waged to take control of land, resources and people, yes, and how they do that is topple the government. Thats the objective, if not outright have direct control over the land, install a puppet government for you. But nevertheless, the country is defined as a plot of land and people a government controls. Canada is what Canada is because our southern border was determined through wars and conflicts with the US two hundred years ago. That border is the extent where our government loses its authority and the American government takes control.

[Fatbaby]

If the government of this country was toppled the country would still exist.
The Nazi government was taken out of control and Germany still exists.
"We the people", formed this government. Laws exist, national and international laws that stand in the way of one country trying to invade and control another country.

[Saya]

If you remember correctly, Germany did not exist after the Nazis were toppled. West Germany and East Germany existed, and it wasn't until they were united again under ONE GOVERNMENT that Germany became "whole" again.


"We the people" will vote every four years on who gets to make laws for us and control our tax rates and money. We don't really govern ourselves, do we? We just cast a ballot every few years and then go on our daily lives living by their laws.

National and International laws exist, but there are many nations that ignore them, and get away with it.

[Fatbaby]

Originally Posted by Saya

"We the people" will vote every four years on who gets to make laws for us and control our tax rates and money. We don't really govern ourselves, do we? We just cast a ballot every few years and then go on our daily lives living by their laws.

Let's turn that sentence around.
We don't really govern ourselves, do we? "We the people" will vote every four years on who gets to make laws for us and control our tax rates and money.

Yes the people in this country govern themselves and if we do not feel as though the government is representing our needs it states in the Declaration of Independence that we the people can oust that government.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

Let's turn that sentence around.
We don't really govern ourselves, do we? "We the people" will vote every four years on who gets to make laws for us and control our tax rates and money.

Yes the people in this country govern themselves and if we do not feel as though the government is representing our needs it states in the Declaration of Independence that we the people can oust that government.

Yeah right, like this country has the balls to start a revolution. People here are either stupid, ignorant, apathetic, or scared. They're not exactly prime revolutionary material.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

Let's turn that sentence around.
We don't really govern ourselves, do we? "We the people" will vote every four years on who gets to make laws for us and control our tax rates and money.

Yes the people in this country govern themselves and if we do not feel as though the government is representing our needs it states in the Declaration of Independence that we the people can oust that government.

And any group expressing the wish to actually oust the government could get arrested.

[Fatbaby]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

Yeah right, like this country has the balls to start a revolution. People here are either stupid, ignorant, apathetic, or scared. They're not exactly prime revolutionary material.

You're right! The majority of the people in this country, about seventy percent, would not lift a finger to go against the police and armies the government controls. Still, in the 20's and 30's people who went on strike for better wages were beaten and killed. It took thirty years for unions to obtain the following to face corporations. Lately the organization of laborers has diminished because of our corporate loving government.

Yes and many groups are arrested. Presently they claim that they are terrorists. Many organizations that struggle for the environment have been labeled terrorist.

[Joker_in_the_Pack]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

You're right! The majority of the people in this country, about seventy percent, would not lift a finger to go against the police and armies the government controls. Still, in the 20's and 30's people who went on strike for better wages were beaten and killed. It took thirty years for unions to obtain the following to face corporations. Lately the organization of laborers has diminished because of our corporate loving government.

Yes and many groups are arrested. Presently they claim that they are terrorists. Many organizations that struggle for the environment have been labeled terrorist.

Haha they should be arresting PETA members instead, not the ones who just send money, the ones who run around splashing paint on fur.

[Solumina]

Originally Posted by Saya

"We the people" will vote every four years on who gets to make laws for us and control our tax rates and money. We don't really govern ourselves, do we? We just cast a ballot every few years and then go on our daily lives living by their laws.

This right here pisses me off to no end. The president is not the only thing we have to vote on, not by a very long stretch. Individuals can and do still make a huge difference in local and state government but hey that shit doesn't matter, right?

[Fatbaby]

Originally Posted by Joker_in_the_Pack

Haha they should be arresting PETA members instead, not the ones who just send money, the ones who run around splashing paint on fur.

I too believe they should. However, I have a close friend who has trouble flying as she has been labeled a terrorist for sitting in a tree and not allowing the lumber company to cut it down.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Solumina

This right here pisses me off to no end. The president is not the only thing we have to vote on, not by a very long stretch. Individuals can and do still make a huge difference in local and state government but hey that shit doesn't matter, right?

The provincial and federal elections are all we get to vote on, I dunno about America. Except once back out home we all voted whether we wanted a war memorial or an ice rink.

And I suspect all our petitions and letters get burned, really. I've not once gotten a reply. Not only that, but its hard motivating people to call or write to their MP. It really depresses me how much people complain but don't want to do anything about it.

[Solumina]

I know that it seems like nobody cares about the letters that get sent in but in my experience they are taken into account, sometimes there just isn't enough time to respond to them. I know when I was working for Loudoun County as an aide to one of the supervisors I had to read all of the email and it was overwhelming, over three hundred emails a day on one topic was not unusual and then there were phone calls and letters on top of that, but everything got read and taken into consideration, though there were still a lot of angry emails about how nobody would read their emails because they didn't get a reply within the hour.


Here in the US the way that your local government is set up varies from state to state and county to county but most of them rely heavily on public hearings (although most of the time people don't pay any attention to hearing dates) instead of people voting directly on the issue (in larger districts I would imagine that most things are put to a vote as an open hearing in a district with 10 million+ people would be a little hard to handle).

[Saya]

I've only seen a large group of people passionate about the government twice, once a few years ago when Newfoundland was striking a deal with the federal government which would give us completely control on our offshore oil. When it looked like the federal government was going to deny us a few things hell broke loose, everywhere people were taking down their Canadian flags and instead putting up the Newfoundland republic flag. Then of course the federal government consented and everything smoothed over, and the Republic of Newfoundland movement is now reduced to t-shirts you get in gift shops and the rants of the few of us who are old enough to remember our days of (relative) independance. We went from patriotic Canadians to screaming for revolution to content Canadians again in just a few weeks.

The time before that was when the government legalized same sex marriage (this was before the Canadian bill of rights included the right for gay marriage). We had just elected a conservative party so it took me and most of us by pleasant surprise, but then the religious nuts started going around furiously with their petitions. One lady told my mom she was going to hell just because mom refused to sign it.

[$haDe]

I won't fight for neither country nor government

[Underwater Ophelia]

Originally Posted by Fatbaby

A country is the land (a area of land bordered by oceans and the national boundaries of other nations) and the people that take residence there. Do you want me to define government as well?

Wow, you're stupid.

By the rules you've established here, the Kingdom of Prussia should still exist.

[Tam Li Hua]

I think I'd probably be a hippie, if it comes down to it. Only without the drugs.