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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 10-22-2010, 07:04 PM   #101
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No. That's not the same thing at all. A baby is a baby. A fetus is a fetus. They are just not equal, bro. By law, if we are to kill a baby, we are thrown into prison for murder. If you want to believe a fetus is the exact same thing as an infant, then you CAN NOT IDLY STAND BY AND LET CATEGORICAL SLAUGHTER of innocent lives go by without justice. By the standard of a fetus is just as equal to a post birth human should DICTATE THAT YOU GO TO WAR with a NATION of murderers. Because right now, as I'm typing this, 100s of lives have just been murdered and a nation is ALLOWING it to happen. It is even endorsing it.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:12 PM   #102
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Except that a baby is not fully developed. It is just developed past the need to be carried by it's mother. By that logic, a baby is worth 0% of an adult.
No. Again, you misunderstand. This argument's criteria has nothing to do with a fetus/baby/person's ability to survive. It has to do with the ethics of a society allowing and/or prohibiting the practice of abortion. The Fetus has zero value because placing any other value on it is tantamount to a call to war. You (and by extension the vast majority of human society) are not willing to go to war over this, therefor a fetus must be worth less than a baby or a mother.

If Someone kills an infant, because it will save them money we are horrified and they are thrown in jail.

If someone kills a woman, the same thing happens.

If someone kills an old person, once again, the same thing happens.

Yet 45 Million fetuses and counting have been slaughtered and you play Fallout New Vegas.

Clearly you are

A) Evil/Insane

B) Don't really hold the belief you claim to.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:28 PM   #103
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Under the conditions that a 0:1 value dictates, a fully grown chimpanzee is a more productive member to human society.
No. That's patently ridiculous. This has nothing to do with how "productive" a person/thing is. No one in their right mind would place more value than a person on a cow, or a horse, even thought they are arguably "more productive" than a homeless man, an old person, or an infant.

You're really bad at this.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:33 PM   #104
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It took me a minute to recover my composure from laughing so hard about the Octohitler thing. That screams to be made into a meme.

As for why it doesn't send me into a rage, I think it's because there are a thousand evils in the world that I am aware of, some implicitly, that I do nothing about. The only rationalization that comes to mind is that they do not directly effect me, so I don't feel threatened or completely associate enough to take a course of action. Kind of like mother's that don't join MADD until a child is killed in a DUI incident, or how Christopher Reeve didn't give two shits about stem cell research until AFTER he was paralyzed.

I'm also somewhat aware of the impact pro-life has on society as a whole, which I consider to be worse then pro-choice, by far. I would think that the utter collapse of society is worse then genocide. But right and wrong only go so far. It's right to fight every wrong in the world, but it's not possible. I think the best most of us hope to accomplish is to live what we consider a good life, and let others be stupid until our lives overlap. That's often when people take action, isn't it? Which reminds me, did you know that chimpanzees are similar to humans in that they are empathic within their own communities, but show indifference to the plight of other communities? I thought that was interesting.

Either way, it sounds pretty evil and calloused to me.

And your link does not work for me.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:42 PM   #105
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Versus, the thing is, that sentiment is vastly inappropriate to what you can only equate abortion to being the greatest inexcusable atrocity in human history.

By the logic of pro-life, a fetus is equal to a black person or a Jew or even an Arab. Now, instead of it just being, you know, abortions... it's actually the systematic state endorsed GENOCIDE of jews, blacks, or arabs. A fetus = a person. A fetus = a homosexual. Now... that system of murder is applied to something you can easily observe. Would you stand idly by and wait for legislation to outlaw the systematic genocide of an entire group of people or would you actually put down the controller and do the DIRECT ACTION necessary to end that great atrocity?

Honestly, I think the only thing you really have is that emotionally you attach an imaginary value on something you viscerally and mentally know is not nearly as important.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:44 PM   #106
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Also: Is Fallout New Vegas better than FO3? I've been playing FO3 the whole time this conversation has been going down.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:44 PM   #107
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But at the same time, what you have either of you done about the daily mass-slaughter that occurs across the entire planet?

Never mind. I'm not evil, anymore.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:50 PM   #108
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Or even an Arab? You know what that sounds like, right? XD

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Honestly, I think the only thing you really have is that emotionally you attach an imaginary value on something you viscerally and mentally know is not nearly as important.
Probably the truth. Despanan called me out on it earlier. But the holocaust only gets me heated because of the principal of the thing, not because it happened to me.

And I don't know what it's like! It's sitting in my damn disc drive, but I can't get a second to play it because you guys are twats.

But regardless, I'm going to call it like I said I would.
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Old 10-22-2010, 07:57 PM   #109
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GOD DAMN IT. ALSO.

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The Fetus has zero value because placing any other value on it is tantamount to a call to war. You (and by extension the vast majority of human society) are not willing to go to war over this, therefor a fetus must be worth less than a baby or a mother.
I am humbled, yet again.

It's weird to know that to be true, but not feel it. Is there a word for that?
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:13 PM   #110
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But at the same time, what you have either of you done about the daily mass-slaughter that occurs across the entire planet?
Well, I just ran a marathon and raised over $500 to fund the building of Wells and AIDS clinics in Zambia, Africa.

But that's really immaterial. There are systems in place to prevent murders, and robberies and punish the perpetrators in nearly all nations. Also, usually when some dictator steps over the line and becomes a Genocidal fuck-head, the international community eventually does SOMETHING to stop them (though admittedly this should be handled more swiftly, even though the situations are muddier what with clashing boarders and cultures).

However, More than 45 million abortions have happened in America, to say nothing of the rest of the world, and there's no revolt. There's nothing stopping this, no one punishing the perpetrators. There's very little violence, almost microscopically so.

Why is this? 51 percent of Americans recently identified as Pro-Life and that certainly implies that they believe in the 1:1 ratio. Why is our country not engulfed in civil war? A MAJORITY OF PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT OCTOHITLER IS KILLING THEIR CHILDREN AS WE SPEAK.

Or do they? Like you, I don't think they've really thought about it. Even now you're not really angry. I mean come on, MULTIPLE HOLOCAUSTS are taking place in your backyard as we speak. America had a civil war AND a civil rights movement simply because people decided that black-skinned people had less value than white skinned people. Deciding that the fetus to baby ratio is 0:1 is WAY worse than that.

The fact of the matter is that you don't really believe in the 1:1 ratio. You say you do, because it makes you feel better. It allows you to look at the world with a childishly simple moral outlook. Pro-Lifers claim (and even believe) that they are fighting for the lives of babies, but their actions show this to be false.

What the Pro-Life movement is about is control. It's about allowing a large group of conservative-minded people to assert their control over the bodies and sexual practices of everyone else. That's why the image of a girl saying "You don't have any condoms either? Fuck it." and not being properly punished angers you, but the idea of 54 million aborted fetuses doesn't stop you from playing a bad-assed videogame.

The world and human society has been changing for years and the old, ignorant religious people are fighting tooth and nail to maintain the power and control over the population they've enjoyed since the middle ages. This is about their church being allowed to decide when and how the rest of us have sex and reproduce. It's about Authoritarianism, not murder.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:14 PM   #111
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GOD DAMN IT. ALSO.



I am humbled, yet again.

It's weird to know that to be true, but not feel it. Is there a word for that?
You understand it intellectually, not viscerally.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:24 PM   #112
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That's why the image of a girl saying "You don't have any condoms either? Fuck it." and not being properly punished angers you, but the idea of 54 million aborted fetuses doesn't stop you from playing a bad-assed videogame.
A sobering realization.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:27 PM   #113
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A sobering realization.
And knowing is half the battle.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:38 PM   #114
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Is that so?
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:18 PM   #115
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Yes. Yes it is
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Old 10-22-2010, 09:58 PM   #116
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You don't say?
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:22 PM   #117
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Oh shit, I totally forgot.

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Well, I just ran a marathon and raised over $500 to fund the building of Wells and AIDS clinics in Zambia, Africa.
That's bad ass, however immaterial. Good for you.

Now that I think about it, I'm a decent runner. My 6,000 ft above sea level 2-mile is 13 minutes. Maybe I should do that? Unless you ran 30 miles or something. I'd die.
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Old 10-22-2010, 10:51 PM   #118
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Yeah, he ran 26 miles. If you can actually run 2 miles in 13 minutes, a nice easy pace should be pretty simple for you on a 26 mile run. Despanan's speed was about 6 miles an hour.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:10 PM   #119
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I still think I would die. I think they say add 2 minutes or so on a 2 mile here, so I'm sure I'd run better at a lower elevation, but still. I kick the living shit out of myself just for that. I ran 8 slow-as-hell miles the other day, and I was still pretty done afterwards.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:16 PM   #120
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Jesus, if only I had the endurance for 8 slow ass miles. I do have the endurance to WALK 8 miles a day... but pfffft if I'll ever do that.
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:26 PM   #121
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This is delicious!
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Old 10-22-2010, 11:28 PM   #122
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That comes as a bit of a shock to me. Didn't you say you were prior service? But I know what you mean. I run mostly because because I'm forced to. It's not to say I don't care, it's just hard for me to want to. Once I start, I try really hard to improve... I just hate doing it for the first mile before I get high.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:01 AM   #123
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Yeah, he ran 26 miles. If you can actually run 2 miles in 13 minutes, a nice easy pace should be pretty simple for you on a 26 mile run. Despanan's speed was about 6 miles an hour.
That's really impressive. I had no idea that Despanan was so athletic. I'm a decent runner myself, but I've never run more than 8-9 miles at once.
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Old 10-23-2010, 12:39 AM   #124
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That comes as a bit of a shock to me. Didn't you say you were prior service? But I know what you mean. I run mostly because because I'm forced to. It's not to say I don't care, it's just hard for me to want to. Once I start, I try really hard to improve... I just hate doing it for the first mile before I get high.
Yeah. It's just something I have no love for. To me, it's like this psychological marathon of pain that I don't feel or look any better from. However, I'm genetically inclined to strength train like a madman. I used to spend 4 to 6 hours a day at the gym pumping iron no sweat. And that was heavy weight/medium reps.

But my personal goal right now is to be able to do 200 pushups in less than an hour and then hopefully just get to the point of 200 pushups straight.

It makes for a decent workout.
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Old 10-23-2010, 01:28 AM   #125
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Yeah. It's just something I have no love for. To me, it's like this psychological marathon of pain that I don't feel or look any better from. However, I'm genetically inclined to strength train like a madman. I used to spend 4 to 6 hours a day at the gym pumping iron no sweat. And that was heavy weight/medium reps.

But my personal goal right now is to be able to do 200 pushups in less than an hour and then hopefully just get to the point of 200 pushups straight.

It makes for a decent workout.
We're like opposites, then. I have a really hard noticing any gains from lifting, but I have no problem just running. Actually, what I really hate/love is sprints up these god damn hills behind my work. After two times up my thighs get that burning wobble thing going on, and I'm sucking down air like I almost drowned. But it's good. I'm trying to work on burst speed/strength rather then endurance to prepare for Afghanistan. Like, I can do 90 push ups in about a minute 30 before I get muscle failure, but I can't lift a whole lot. I think the heaviest thing I've ever picked up was someone from work, and I used my entire body but could only get him on my back. To be fair to me, though, he weighs literally twice as much as I do... But I'm pretty weaksauce when it comes to isolating muscle groups.

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That's really impressive. I had no idea that Despanan was so athletic. I'm a decent runner myself, but I've never run more than 8-9 miles at once.
Me neither. Judging how much I hated 8, I imagine 30 as being far beyond my reach... Someone should ask Despanan what he does to train.
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