To my fellow Coloradans RE: Amendment 62

[Versus]

On one hand, it pisses me off when women just don't want to take responsibility for being a dumb fuck. If you don't want a child, either A) do everything you can to prevent it knowing fucking full well that accidents can still happen, or B) come to term and give the child up for adoption. Not every abortion is legitimate.

This is me speaking from an ethical stand point, not a practical one. It is not asinine to assume that people are irresponsible with birth control. There are some stupid fucking people out there that do nothing to prevent a pregnancy. It is very common to hear something like "just get an abortion," not because it would cause extreme financial hardship, but simply because it is inconvenient. That's bullshit and it pisses me off because I know for a fact that such things do happen. It doesn't matter what percentage of women are like this. You wouldn't let criminals go unpunished just because most people don't break the law, would you?

I think the ideal solution is a list of certain, unexemptible conditions in which abortion is or is not legal. I say that because of the relatively short time between discovery of pregnancy and the possible result of a decision making process.

Such as the cost of birth control or carrying to term. I understand pregnancy is expensive, and I don't expect everyone to be able to afford it as things are right now. We don't live in a perfect world where those conditions that come to my mind are met. Because of this, I can't chose between the murder of life or the hardship of parents and their children.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Catch

I resent that. I have enjoyed Obama being President (mostly because it has proven Democrats cannot balance the budget). Not all Republicans are pro-life (they are only when they want people to vote for them). So! I hope you take YOUR Narrow-Mindedness elsewhere.

I know this is pointless, but:

Hey Catch, Democrats already balanced the budget:

Originally Posted by wikipedia

In August 1993, Clinton signed the Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, which passed Congress without a Republican vote. It cut taxes for fifteen million low-income families, made tax cuts available to 90% of small businesses,[59] and raised taxes on the wealthiest 1.2% of taxpayers.[60] Additionally, through the implementation of spending restraints, it mandated the budget be balanced over a number of years.

Senators Ted Kennedy – a Democrat – and Orrin Hatch, a Republican, teamed up with Hillary Rodham Clinton and her staff in 1997 and succeeded in passing legislation forming the Children's Health Insurance Program, the largest (successful) health care reform in the years of the Clinton Presidency. That same year Hillary Clinton shepherded through Congress the Adoption and Safe Families Act and two years later Rodham Clinton succeeded in helping pass the Foster Care Independence Act. Bill Clinton supported both bills as well, and signed both of them into law.

also:

Clinton also oversaw a boom of the U.S. economy. Under Clinton, the United States had a projected federal budget surplus for the first time since 1969.

Guess who took that balanced budget and highest surplus in American history and nearly turned it into a second Great Depression in a measly eight years?

Yeah.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

This is me speaking from an ethical stand point, not a practical one. It is not asinine to assume that people are irresponsible with birth control. There are some stupid fucking people out there that do nothing to prevent a pregnancy. It is very common to hear something like "just get an abortion," not because it would cause extreme financial hardship, but simply because it is inconvenient. That's bullshit and it pisses me off because I know for a fact that such things do happen. It doesn't matter what percentage of women are like this. You wouldn't let criminals go unpunished just because most people don't break the law, would you?

So you would force women to carry to term just because you think they're stupid? That they were irresponsible? Because people take it too lightly?

70,000 women die every year because they tried to get an unsafe abortion. Millions more have serious health problems as a result. When abortion was illegal here, women were forced to take these measures, with a coat hanger, knitting needles, back alley abortions. Eventually feminists groups started Jane, a group where no one was referred to by name, they were all Jane, and performed abortions as safely as they could for women who needed them. Obviously, it isn't as simple as just not wanting to carry to term.

Even now, its not that easy. When women in the US get late term abortions the most common reason is that they had to raise the money. Here in Canada there is no legal limit on when you can get one, and they're covered by health care, but our rate is much lower and they get them done far earlier in the pregnancy. But access is still pretty limited, I had a friend in high school who very conveniently miscarried after she was freaking out about being pregnant, and there was no clinic where we lived, and no way to get to one without asking someone for a ride as she didn't have her license. She didn't want her parents to know. The more I think of it, the more I wonder if she aborted at home, and that terrifies me. I don't care if she used birth control or not or how irresponsible she was, what terrifies me was that she could have died. Women are willing to die to keep their bodies their own. And after all, in the US you're far more likely to die giving birth than getting an abortion.

Such as the cost of birth control or carrying to term. I understand pregnancy is expensive, and I don't expect everyone to be able to afford it as things are right now. We don't live in a perfect world where those conditions that come to my mind are met. Because of this, I can't chose between the murder of life or the hardship of parents and their children.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

So because you feel its murder, even though its not a person, has no consciousness, and depends on the body of another like a parasite, women should suffer? Its not even that pregnancy is expensive, abortion is too in the US, but it severely changes your body.

If a child was dying and needed a kidney, and the only known match was their father, but the father didn't want to give up his kidney, would you force the father to give it up?

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

This is me speaking from an ethical stand point, not a practical one. It is not asinine to assume that people are irresponsible with birth control. There are some stupid fucking people out there that do nothing to prevent a pregnancy. It is very common to hear something like "just get an abortion," not because it would cause extreme financial hardship, but simply because it is inconvenient.

PROVE IT. Precisely what percentage of women use abortion as their primary means of Birth Control?

That's bullshit and it pisses me off because I know for a fact that such things do happen. It doesn't matter what percentage of women are like this.

it certainly does when you're advocating new laws to prevent this behavior. Those laws would apply to everyone, and I certainly wouldn't want my potential unwanted child to come to term while my G/F and I are tied up in court presenting condom receipts and character witnesses, just because you have beef with some hypothetical Abortionatrix

You wouldn't let criminals go unpunished just because most people don't break the law, would you?

So women who use abortion as a means of birth control aren't just irresponsible, they're criminals now, is that it?

Such as the cost of birth control or carrying to term. I understand pregnancy is expensive, and I don't expect everyone to be able to afford it as things are right now. We don't live in a perfect world where those conditions that come to my mind are met. Because of this, I can't chose between the murder of life or the hardship of parents and their children.

Please don't put words in my mouth.

I'm going to say this once: Fuck you, you self-righteous hypocritical mysogynistic asshole.

I don't have to put words in your mouth because the above shows you for what you are: an intellectual coward who wants to snidely look down his nose and saddle a poor girl with the task of raising an unwanted revengebaby as penance for sexual promisquity. Then of course, when that unwanted child grows to term, you want ME to pay for it's expenses in an orphanage and it's hypothetical incarceration when in all likelyhood it becomes an anti-social adult as a direct result of its unwanted status during it's upbringing. (Tell me, Are you pro capital punishment? Because that would be just DELICIOUSLY ironic)

All this so you can say: "you made your bed, now lie in it" to Eric Cartman's wrestling persona in the WTF episode, and THEN you have the sheer GALL to believe that "abortion is murder" but still allow it because the alternative is "expensive".

No sir, fuck you. Die in a clean-burning fire.

[LaBelleDameSansMerci]

Versus, don't assume all women are idiots just because a few are. Most of us are DAMNED CAREFUL about birth control. We don't want children we're not ready for, and it's at least partly because we're the ones who have to carry it around 24/7 for 9 months, and then because of the history and values of our society, we're generally the ones who are expected to take care of it, on our salaries that are, on average, 17% less than those of men. Even for those whose mates stick around, it's very difficult. Often women are not financially ready, don't feel they are emotionally ready, and possibly don't feel they have the right partner.

Abortion should be legal, if for no other reason than it's less complicated than if people have to go through a legal process to get one. People can always fraud the system, too.

And no man should, under any circumstances, be able to veto a woman's right to an abortion.

[Versus]

So you would force women to carry to term just because you think they're stupid? That they were irresponsible? Because people take it too lightly?

If they were able to have safely have children, yes, I would. If you don't want children but want to have sex, you should practice contraception. That's not an opinion of stupid or irresponsibility.

70,000 women die every year because they tried to get an unsafe abortion. Millions more have serious health problems as a result. When abortion was illegal here, women were forced to take these measures, with a coat hanger, knitting needles, back alley abortions. Eventually feminists groups started Jane, a group where no one was referred to by name, they were all Jane, and performed abortions as safely as they could for women who needed them. Obviously, it isn't as simple as just not wanting to carry to term.

Even now, its not that easy. When women in the US get late term abortions the most common reason is that they had to raise the money. Here in Canada there is no legal limit on when you can get one, and they're covered by health care, but our rate is much lower and they get them done far earlier in the pregnancy.

It's bullshit that so many people die so fucking pointlessly. I understand that some women do need an abortion to safeguard their lives. I'm not arguing against this. As I said, I would only feel it's appropriate to make a law unless all possible conditions were met, such as access to birth control (and yes, I know birth control is not for everyone, those women should be an exception because their conception has a far less chance of being prevented) and the health care to either get an abortion or carry to term.

So because you feel its murder, even though its not a person, has no consciousness, and depends on the body of another like a parasite, women should suffer? Its not even that pregnancy is expensive, abortion is too in the US, but it severely changes your body.

I think you misunderstood my post.

Such as the cost of birth control or carrying to term. I understand pregnancy is expensive, and I don't expect everyone to be able to afford it as things are right now. We don't live in a perfect world where those conditions that come to my mind are met. Because of this, I can't chose between the murder of life or the hardship of parents and their children.

Also, a healthy pregnancy is not suffering. Being denied the opportunity to live is.

If a child was dying and needed a kidney, and the only known match was their father, but the father didn't want to give up his kidney, would you force the father to give it up?

Please, read my earlier post.

On the other, sometimes the reason for wanting to terminate a pregnancy can be justified, such as the health of a mother. Sometimes it makes sense to prioritize the life of people, but in a situation where the only end state from either course of action is that likely one of the two will die, and possibly both, you really ethically can't.

That is said in context, but I feel it aptly explains my opinion. I think where our misunderstanding is is that you compare pregnancy to a life-threating medical situation.

PROVE IT. Precisely what percentage of women use abortion as their primary means of Birth Control?

I don't know. I think there was another misunderstanding, here. What the fuck you were talking about makes a lot more sense to me, now.

I wasn't talking about a woman who would CHOOSE an abortion OVER birth control. I don't know who would do that, either.

What I was trying to say was the kind of woman that says:

"What?! You don't have any condoms either?! .... Fuck it."

Or the kind that just doesn't practice contraception in the first place, then when the reality of their decisions catches up get an abortion. Does that make more sense, now?

it certainly does when you're advocating new laws to prevent this behavior. Those laws would apply to everyone, and I certainly wouldn't want my potential unwanted child to come to term while my G/F and I are tied up in court presenting condom receipts and character witnesses, just because you have beef with some hypothetical Abortionatr

I also redirect you to an earlier post I made.

I think the ideal solution is a list of certain, unexemptible conditions in which abortion is or is not legal. I say that because of the relatively short time between discovery of pregnancy and the possible result of a decision making process.

So women who use abortion as a means of birth control aren't just irresponsible, they're criminals now, is that it?

What I was trying to express was that women who do not have a legitimate reason ("I don't want to suffer the consequences of my actions and my choices" is not legitimate) to have an abortion should not be able to just because people who need one can.

It doesn't really matter you if feel that there is nothing in the slightest way wrong about abortions., though. I guess disregard.

I'm going to say this once: Fuck you, you self-righteous hypocritical mysogynistic asshole.

I don't have to put words in your mouth because the above shows you for what you are: an intellectual coward who wants to snidely look down his nose and saddle a poor girl with the task of raising an unwanted revengebaby as penance for sexual promisquity. Then of course, when that unwanted child grows to term, you want ME to pay for it's expenses in an orphanage and it's hypothetical incarceration when in all likelyhood it becomes an anti-social adult as a direct result of its unwanted status during it's upbringing. (Tell me, Are you pro capital punishment? Because that would be just DELICIOUSLY ironic)

Well fucking excuse me. I believe in BIG BOY RULES, where you take responsibility for your actions. Sex is for GROWN UPS, not for fucking children who can't handle the consequences of their decisions. I have zero sympathy for people who contract STDs, or people that get pregnant when they took ZERO PRECAUTIONS. It's not about being snide, about spite, or anything like that. It's the fact that people know full fucking well what they are doing, and when a fucking person is the result (I'm not going to argue the definition of person, I don't care. If left unchecked, that little piece of shit will grow into what we can recognize as human.) the want to pretend otherwise.

All this so you can say: "you made your bed, now lie in it" to Eric Cartman's wrestling persona in the WTF episode, and THEN you have the sheer GALL to believe that "abortion is murder" but still allow it because the alternative is "expensive".

No sir, fuck you. Die in a clean-burning fire.

Christ. AGAIN, I redirect you to an earlier post.

On the other, sometimes the reason for wanting to terminate a pregnancy can be justified, such as the health of a mother. Sometimes it makes sense to prioritize the life of people, but in a situation where the only end state from either course of action is that likely one of the two will die, and possibly both, you really ethically can't.

Such as the cost of birth control or carrying to term. I understand pregnancy is expensive, and I don't expect everyone to be able to afford it as things are right now. We don't live in a perfect world where those conditions that come to my mind are met. Because of this, I can't chose between the murder of life or the hardship of parents and their children.

Ah, fuck. This is a very difficult thing for me because, as with many things, I can see merit in both arguments. I guess it comes down to which pisses me off the most, I think.

Stop putting words in my mouth.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by LaBelleDameSansMerci

Versus, don't assume all women are idiots just because a few are. Most of us are DAMNED CAREFUL about birth control. We don't want children we're not ready for, and it's at least partly because we're the ones who have to carry it around 24/7 for 9 months, and then because of the history and values of our society, we're generally the ones who are expected to take care of it, on our salaries that are, on average, 17% less than those of men. Even for those whose mates stick around, it's very difficult. Often women are not financially ready, don't feel they are emotionally ready, and possibly don't feel they have the right partner.

Abortion should be legal, if for no other reason than it's less complicated than if people have to go through a legal process to get one. People can always fraud the system, too.

And no man should, under any circumstances, be able to veto a woman's right to an abortion.

My frustration comes from women who are not damned careful. I have said many times, I have no personal objection with people who are, but get fucked into a shitty situations after all they did to avoid it.

Also, I have never voted for or again abortion. I don't think it's my place, either.

[KontanKarite]

Versus, I know you'll disagree with me on this, but in the long run, abortion as a form of birth control is actually necessary. Those... women you're talking about... the unsafe ones... they don't have to go to the doctor to abort a pregnancy. Those kinds of women wouldn't even bother. They'd go in the bathroom, get a coat hanger, and deal with it themselves.

The stupid irresponsible woman that you're talking about just does not exist. You're talking about making access to abortion HARDER just so that maybe ONE totally fucked up bitch should have to deal with the consequences of her actions with a punishment baby? Really? Dude. Your abortion monsters AREN'T real.

[Saya]

Originally Posted by Versus

If they were able to have safely have children, yes, I would. If you don't want children but want to have sex, you should practice contraception. That's not an opinion of stupid or irresponsibility.

Its nice that you set standards for others that you yourself will never have to live up to.

Go to the rant thread to see what its like to be on hormonal birth control. Realize that many Americans do not get safe sex education, and often listen to myths surrounding birth control. Realize that people are going to fuck, and are going to fuck regardless if birth control is an option or not.

It's bullshit that so many people die so fucking pointlessly. I understand that some women do need an abortion to safeguard their lives. I'm not arguing against this. As I said, I would only feel it's appropriate to make a law unless all possible conditions were met, such as access to birth control (and yes, I know birth control is not for everyone, those women should be an exception because their conception has a far less chance of being prevented) and the health care to either get an abortion or carry to term.

Bullshit, it can never happen. Birth control fails, and we shouldn't police the bodies of women. Even in Canada not everyone has access or knows how to use it, its simply not possible, but we know the best thing to do is not to limit access to abortion, the last resort, for any reason.

Also, a healthy pregnancy is not suffering. Being denied the opportunity to live is.

OH FUCK OFF. A healthy pregnancy is not a fucking dance around the may pole. Again, nice to set standards by which you'll never have to answer for. And no, BEING DENIED THE OPPORTUNITY TO LIVE IS NOT SUFFERING IF YOU ARE NOT ALIVE. How can you suffer if you're not alive? Fetuses are incapable of being conscious, of suffering. For all this "well aren't you happy your mother didn't abort you?" bullshit, there is no logic. I wouldn't know the difference if she had because I simply would not exist. I suppose my imaginary brothers and sisters should be pissed about all those times my parents did use birth control, for all the good it did to potential lives.

That is said in context, but I feel it aptly explains my opinion. I think where our misunderstanding is is that you compare pregnancy to a life-threating medical situation.

I'm all for the choice to abort even if it is healthy. Women will die trying to get abortions even if its a healthy pregnancy. My friend didn't even know if it was healthy or not, if she did do it herself. I doubt the people in the states who do use the coat hanger could afford prenatal care to find out either. Health isn't exactly the bottom line, although the fact that pregnancy, healthy or not, dramatically changes your body is an important fact to keep in mind. It is a medical situation, bottom line, and no one except the patient and doctor should be able to say what they can do to improve their situation.

[Versus]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

Versus, I know you'll disagree with me on this, but in the long run, abortion as a form of birth control is actually necessary. Those... women you're talking about... the unsafe ones... they don't have to go to the doctor to abort a pregnancy. Those kinds of women wouldn't even bother. They'd go in the bathroom, get a coat hanger, and deal with it themselves.

The stupid irresponsible woman that you're talking about just does not exist. You're talking about making access to abortion HARDER just so that maybe ONE totally fucked up bitch should have to deal with the consequences of her actions with a punishment baby? Really? Dude. Your abortion monsters AREN'T real.

You know what's funny? I don't completely disagree. My 10 commandment style conditions are grossly unrealistic without the fact my opinion is largely unpopular. I know this. Contrary to popular belief, I am capable of putting other people before me. I wouldn't push it on people, and I wouldn't judge anyone by it. I'll defend the fuck out of it, but it doesn't really matter what I think. I'm a self-righteous hypocritical mysogynistic asshole.

[TheFeatheredÆtheling]

Me too, Versus. Me too...

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

What I was trying to say was the kind of woman that says:

"What?! You don't have any condoms either?! .... Fuck it."

Or the kind that just doesn't practice contraception in the first place, then when the reality of their decisions catches up get an abortion. Does that make more sense, now?

Yes. Your position is still hypocritical and morally reprehensible (see below)

What I was trying to express was that women who do not have a legitimate reason ("I don't want to suffer the consequences of my actions and my choices" is not legitimate) to have an abortion should not be able to just because people who need one can.

Why would you possibly think that having a fucking abortion is not a consequence? It's a psychologically damaging invasive procedure which she'll have to live with for the rest of her life. It will also cause her to be socially reviled by thousands of assholes like you.

It's not like they just tap her on the tummy and poof! Dead baby.

But I suppose you're still not quite getting me, let's look down here:

I believe in BIG BOY RULES, where you take responsibility for your actions. Sex is for GROWN UPS, not for fucking children who can't handle the consequences of their decisions. I have zero sympathy for people who contract STDs, or people that get pregnant when they took ZERO PRECAUTIONS. It's not about being snide, about spite, or anything like that. It's the fact that people know full fucking well what they are doing, and when a fucking person is the result the want to pretend otherwise.

See, the above sentiment really makes you an absolutely horrible person. By and large, the only kind of person who is going to go: "You don't have any condoms? ehh fuck it." Is someone who does not know the risks involved in having sex. This is someone who's parents, school, and religion have all failed to properly educate them and now they also have to deal with you looking down your nose at them and saying "I told you so, now live with it fucker!" on top of that.

In this case You are a horrible person.

But lets assume that this person IS the irresponsible sociopath that you imagine them to be. Your solution is to force said sociopath to carry their baby to term and then alternately raise it themselves and/or place it in an institution? Really Versus? REALLY?

Have you even thought about what being raised by such a deranged, irresponsible madwoman, as you imagine the culprit to be would do to a child? What about growing to maturity in an institution for unwanted children? Have you considered what kind of person that baby is likely to grow up into?

See this is why I called it a "Revengebaby" You're actually advocating using a human life to teach someone a lesson about responsibility. See, from where I'm sitting that's as much if not more of a violation of human life than the straight-up fetal-murder you apparently abhor (unless of course, it's too expensive to raise the baby).

So, once again, You are a horrible person.

Because of this, I can't chose between the murder of life or the hardship of parents and their children.

Tell me, Mr. Horrible McWasteofbreath, Ballpark figure, in your mind how much is a human life worth? $10,000? $20,000? How much trouble is too much to allow someone to live?

Stop putting words in my mouth.

I'm not putting words in your mouth, you just haven't thought through your own opinions, and are simply taking a position on an important polarizing political issue based on your emotional reaction to a hypothetical straw-man. That is absolutely 100% morally, ethically, and intellectually reprehensible.

And so good sir: Fuck you. Die in a fire*.

*From burning, not smoke inhalation

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by Versus

You know what's funny? I don't completely disagree. My 10 commandment style conditions are grossly unrealistic without the fact my opinion is largely unpopular. I know this. Contrary to popular belief, I am capable of putting other people before me. I wouldn't push it on people, and I wouldn't judge anyone by it. I'll defend the fuck out of it, but it doesn't really matter what I think. I'm a self-righteous hypocritical mysogynistic asshole.

Being unobtrusive and non-judgmental about a genuinely fucked-up worldview doesn't make you right or a better person, it just makes you a coward.

You've already admitted that you would use force to punish others for violating your own "ethical" standards if you could, the reason you aren't pushy about your views is that you know they'll make you unpopular.

besides you DO judge people by it:

Originally Posted by Versus

I have zero sympathy for people who contract STDs, or people that get pregnant when they took ZERO PRECAUTIONS.

[KontanKarite]

You know, dude, I'm not saying that shit about you. Thing is, there's a SHITLOAD more women out there that ARE safe and ARE responsible and sometimes, bad shit just fucking happens. But the last thing we need is to restrict access to abortion so that a small handful of dumb fucks can feel the wrath of justice. What you're actually asking for is for people to go to court and request PERMISSION to get an abortion which would require a million and one things to present and prove to justify an abortion to be okay. Seriously, man. When was the last time you kept a receipt for a condom or kept a used condom as evidence that you practiced safe sex? Because that's what it would take and not only that, a pro-life lawyer would just appeal and appeal and appeal until the baby came to term. Very fucked up, no?

Honestly, I've been in situations where abortions were considered. It's NEVER an easy choice. On paper, I don't even really like the idea of abortions. I was born after my mother had 2 abortions. But they're necessary. Completely necessary.

If there was a 100% full proof contraceptive beyond abstinence that actually existed, then I'd actually be pro-life as long as that contraceptive was completely available. But it doesn't exist. Not even tying tubes and vasectomies are full proof.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by TheFeatheredÆtheling

Me too, Versus. Me too...

Yeah, but you most likely agree with him because it's Christian to be pro-life. Your politics are more than likely based on mythology and not what's real and apparent, so your ideals on this are pretty bloody irrelevant.

[Despanan]

Originally Posted by KontanKarite

If there was a 100% full proof contraceptive beyond abstinence that actually existed, then I'd actually be pro-life as long as that contraceptive was completely available. But it doesn't exist. Not even tying tubes and vasectomies are full proof.

I know you're trying too play good cop here Kontan, but you're seriously going to tell me, that in the event of 100% full-proof contraceptives you would force a woman who was so insane that she would refuse to take it and continue to have unprotected sex followed by an abortion to either:

a) take the contraceptive/become sterilized

or

b) have and raise/give away child after child?

Dude, that's fucked up and you know it.

[KontanKarite]

Originally Posted by Despanan

I know you're trying too play good cop here Kontan, but you're seriously going to tell me, that in the event of 100% full-proof contraceptives you would force a woman who was so insane that she would refuse to take it and continue to have unprotected sex followed by an abortion to either:

a) take the contraceptive/become sterilized

or

b) have and raise/give away child after child?

Dude, that's fucked up and you know it.

Shit, I just got totally pwnt. I stand 100% corrected.

[Despanan]

Damn right you did.

[KontanKarite]

...You don't have to rub it in.

[Despanan]

Yes I do. blacktext

[KontanKarite]

Then be gentle about it.

[Despanan]

No. blacktext

[KontanKarite]

Will it be weird again?

[Despanan]

It will be wierder than you can imagine with 100% of your brain.

[KontanKarite]

Awww... man.