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Politics "Under democracy, one party always devotes its chief energies to trying to prove that the other party is unfit to rule -and both commonly succeed, and are right." -H.L. Menken

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Old 12-27-2012, 12:17 AM   #126
Jonathan
 
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Originally Posted by Saya View Post
Well I'm some glad you weren't around during the Nuremburg trials to tell everyone to let them go, they're just mentally ill and the poor souls simply lacked access to mental healthcare.
Bullshit the first - I never suggested that this removed agency. You're once again pretending I am making arguments that I never made.

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Terrible things were encouraged, permissable, and normal during different times in history. In ancient Rome, it would be totally normal and expected for older men to **** little boys and slaves. It was totally acceptable and normal for white men to **** their slaves not too long ago. Did every single white man who did such things mentally ill, and did so because they were mentally ill? Were all our ancestors who colonized North America mentally ill? Are entire nations mentally ill when they go to war with their neighbour? When lynching was normal, did the whole town become mentally ill?
Perhaps you've heard of the term "pedophilia"? That one's a medical term, refering to, holy shit of shits, a psychiatric disorder. So yeah, I think a psychiatric disorder qualifies as a mental health issue. And on further research, well hot damn, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biastophilia - so is DSM IV inaccurate for not including this, or is DSM V inaccurate for considering it?
Thus fucking concludes the complete extent of ****-chat I'm willing to entertain. You want to disagree, and think of rapists as mentally healthy people you go right the fuck on without me.

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I don't understand how this addresses my question. And you still haven't answered my other question; why are middle to upper class white guys who have access to mental health care far more likely to commit mass murder than PoC, who are far less likely to get mental health care, and/or women?
A larger population pool is inherently more likely to have outliers.

Some quick and dirty autism stats.
Overall: 1 in 88 U.S. kids have autism
Boys: 1 in 54
Girls: 1 in 252
Non-Hispanic white children
Non-Hispanic black children
Hispanic children: 1 in 127

Now obviously 1 in 88 people isn't a mass fucking murderer so hopefully that will head off all the "Not everyone with autism is a killer" whining that will inevitably follow regardless. If some very small subset of an already small subset is predisposed when other, external conditions are met, then it makes sense that more will be likely to manifest from the larger pool. You know how like 1% of a large number is "bigger" than 1% of a smaller number? It's kind of like that.

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Its not just the DSM, its just simply not used as a mental health diagnosis, its used in the criminal system. And regardless, if you think the DSM is wrong because you, the armchair psychologist says so, why are you trying to argue that people have better access to mental healthcare which you apparently think is wrong? Why are you trying to use mental illness as an excuse for white violence when you know so little about mental illness?
I did say "better" as well as "more". I think more people being able to have wider access will be helpful in many ways.

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Again, sociopath doesn't mean "a person does fucked up things", it has a criteria that needs to be met. Some killers who do terrible things are sociopaths, others are not. Besides, apparently it wasn't so bad that he only got manslaughter, is your justice system pathological for thinking that's not such a serious kind of murder?
Recidivism is about the clearest example you could look for in terms of a justice system failing to achieve it's supposed goal, so it is pretty safe to say the courts blew it on that one. Evidence for this presumption? If he'd been locked the fuck up he wouldn't have ruined anybody's Christmas.

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Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe View Post
It makes him feel safer to think that violence is perpetrated by the mentally ill.
No, actually, it doesn't.

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Originally Posted by Miss Absynthe View Post
Exactly.

So, if he didn't feel that it was his RIGHT to be listened to, and that we should be shutting the fuck up and making space for him to express HIS ideas (no matter how fallacious those ideas are), he would probably look at the science, look at the ideas that have been brought into this thread, and admit that he's wrong.

But.. he's entitled to be right!!
What the fuck are you even talking about? I'm not forcing you to respond, or telling you to shut up so seriously where the fuck does this even come from?

Feel cordially invited to stop responding any old time you like.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:49 AM   #127
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Jonathan, you're mistaking likelihood and frequency in your response to Saya.

As in more x civilians commited suicide between 2008 and 2012. X Veterans were more likely to commit suicide between 2008 and 2012. Both can be true statements, but only the first is dependant upon "a larger pool."
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:51 AM   #128
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The DSM is ridiculously influenced by political forces within the psych community, it doesn't make space for other cultures at all.

The WHO writings on mental illness are much more helpful than the DSM.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:53 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
What the fuck are you even talking about? I'm not forcing you to respond, or telling you to shut up so seriously where the fuck does this even come from?

Feel cordially invited to stop responding any old time you like.
It comes from the fact that you're not interested in looking at the truth of the matter, or in having an actual discussion about things here. You've got your fingers in your ears and are yelling LALALAICAN'THEARYOU.
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Old 12-27-2012, 04:23 AM   #130
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Bullshit the first - I never suggested that this removed agency. You're once again pretending I am making arguments that I never made.
Except that this is somehow caused by lack of access to mental healthcare and this is inevitable and this will always happen. If its a deterministic view you have, you've made this argument.

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Perhaps you've heard of the term "pedophilia"? That one's a medical term, refering to, holy shit of shits, a psychiatric disorder. So yeah, I think a psychiatric disorder qualifies as a mental health issue. And on further research, well hot damn, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biastophilia - so is DSM IV inaccurate for not including this, or is DSM V inaccurate for considering it?
Thus fucking concludes the complete extent of ****-chat I'm willing to entertain. You want to disagree, and think of rapists as mentally healthy people you go right the fuck on without me.
Most people who rrape children are not pedos, and besides I was talking about pederasty. They're often heterosexual men who rrape because guess what? Rrape is about power and not about sex. The Romans and white slave owners believed it was well within your right to assert your dominance over your "property" in such a way. Its not that at one time all white people were all mentally ill and then got slightly better enough to recognize other people as human.

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A larger population pool is inherently more likely to have outliers.

Some quick and dirty autism stats.
Overall: 1 in 88 U.S. kids have autism
Boys: 1 in 54
Girls: 1 in 252
Non-Hispanic white children
Non-Hispanic black children
Hispanic children: 1 in 127

Now obviously 1 in 88 people isn't a mass fucking murderer so hopefully that will head off all the "Not everyone with autism is a killer" whining that will inevitably follow regardless. If some very small subset of an already small subset is predisposed when other, external conditions are met, then it makes sense that more will be likely to manifest from the larger pool. You know how like 1% of a large number is "bigger" than 1% of a smaller number? It's kind of like that.
No, NRA still calls for a database of the mentally ill. And you're still not answering my question. Why are white men far more likely to be mass murderer, despite the fact that they frequently defy the arguments your making, like poor parenting, poverty or access to healthcare of any kind?


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I did say "better" as well as "more". I think more people being able to have wider access will be helpful in many ways.
Except you don't want that with sociopaths because like I said over and over, sociopaths are actually made worse by therapy. And I don't get how you're qualified to say that the DSM, in no contradiction to the WHO, does not use a criminal justice term or diagnosis. Because once they were wrong and that will mean they're always wrong? What are you even trying to say anymore?


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Recidivism is about the clearest example you could look for in terms of a justice system failing to achieve it's supposed goal, so it is pretty safe to say the courts blew it on that one. Evidence for this presumption? If he'd been locked the fuck up he wouldn't have ruined anybody's Christmas.
And yet if they had more EMPATHY for the grandmother, he would still be locked up. Funny how what's psychotic in one person is merely a mistake in another.
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Old 12-27-2012, 07:57 AM   #131
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Thus fucking concludes the complete extent of ****-chat I'm willing to entertain. You want to disagree, and think of rapists as mentally healthy people you go right the fuck on without me.
**** isn't mainly perpetuated by people with MI, its usually fuckers who know its wrong and don't care that they're violating the person of the other because they don't see their victims as full people, and think their own whims are more important than the rights and bodily autonomy of another. Last time I checked an overblown sense of entitlement to use the bodies of others isn't a symptom of any mental illness. So yeah, not mentally ill, they're assholes.



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A larger population pool is inherently more likely to have outliers.

Some quick and dirty autism stats.
Overall: 1 in 88 U.S. kids have autism
Boys: 1 in 54
Girls: 1 in 252
Non-Hispanic white children
Non-Hispanic black children
Hispanic children: 1 in 127

Now obviously 1 in 88 people isn't a mass fucking murderer so hopefully that will head off all the "Not everyone with autism is a killer" whining that will inevitably follow regardless. If some very small subset of an already small subset is predisposed when other, external conditions are met, then it makes sense that more will be likely to manifest from the larger pool. You know how like 1% of a large number is "bigger" than 1% of a smaller number? It's kind of like that.
Your shitty, unsourced stats mean nothing. We don't know how that data was collected and you did a piss poor job explaining what it is even supposed to mean.

It is incredibly unfair reduce some one to a mental illness, when such a thing seems to be coincidental to what has happened. It is not shared across the board with those who have committed similar acts. What is shared, is that the perpetrators are mostly male, white and in their 20s-early 30's. Love how you don't want to actually address those sorts of things, even though they share a stronger correlation than any single mental illness.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:57 AM   #132
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Except that this is somehow caused by lack of access to mental healthcare and this is inevitable and this will always happen. If its a deterministic view you have, you've made this argument.
I am not making the claim that this is caused by lack of access. You're either bad at making logical conclusions, or intentionally straw-manning me. Considering your usual approach is most likely the latter. Human beings aren't pre-ordained to follow a particular set of behaviors from birth, those are influenced by internal factors like a person's psychology, and external factors experience, and environment.

If there is a psychological explanation for why something happens, then a better approach to giving people the help they need can make eventualities like this less likely to happen.

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Most people who rrape children are not pedos, and besides I was talking about pederasty. They're often heterosexual men who rrape because guess what? Rrape is about power and not about sex. The Romans and white slave owners believed it was well within your right to assert your dominance over your "property" in such a way. Its not that at one time all white people were all mentally ill and then got slightly better enough to recognize other people as human.
Again, have fun with your **** chat.

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No, NRA still calls for a database of the mentally ill. And you're still not answering my question. Why are white men far more likely to be mass murderer, despite the fact that they frequently defy the arguments your making, like poor parenting, poverty or access to healthcare of any kind?
So go argue with the NRA, I'm not calling for a database.

Whites make up 70% of the US population, and the middle class close to that number. That is a huge sample. That is the answer to your question. White middle class guys are far more likely because there are far more of them.

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Except you don't want that with sociopaths because like I said over and over, sociopaths are actually made worse by therapy. And I don't get how you're qualified to say that the DSM, in no contradiction to the WHO, does not use a criminal justice term or diagnosis. Because once they were wrong and that will mean they're always wrong? What are you even trying to say anymore?
OK, so the way science works is that at one point you have a possible explanation, and over time and research sometimes you find out what was previously believed was inaccurate or incorrect. The DSM was wrong in the past for including things that shouldn't have been considered mental illnesses, and in the future it will classify things that it currently doesn't. That is what I am "even trying to say anymore".

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And yet if they had more EMPATHY for the grandmother, he would still be locked up. Funny how what's psychotic in one person is merely a mistake in another.
Systems can have mental illness? Can buildings have them too?

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Originally Posted by ape descendant View Post
**** isn't mainly perpetuated by people with MI, its usually fuckers who know its wrong and don't care that they're violating the person of the other because they don't see their victims as full people, and think their own whims are more important than the rights and bodily autonomy of another. Last time I checked an overblown sense of entitlement to use the bodies of others isn't a symptom of any mental illness. So yeah, not mentally ill, they're assholes.
Have fun with your **** chat.

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Your shitty, unsourced stats mean nothing. We don't know how that data was collected and you did a piss poor job explaining what it is even supposed to mean.
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/data.html. Are they still shitty?

It is "supposed to mean" exactly what I wrote. Since I guess you didn't read it I'll just re-paste it now.

"Now obviously 1 in 88 people isn't a mass fucking murderer so hopefully that will head off all the "Not everyone with autism is a killer" whining that will inevitably follow regardless. If some very small subset of an already small subset is predisposed when other, external conditions are met, then it makes sense that more will be likely to manifest from the larger pool. You know how like 1% of a large number is "bigger" than 1% of a smaller number? It's kind of like that."

Maybe this isn't related to an autism spectrum disorder at all. Maybe it is something else all together. Perhaps placing a higher priority on mental health like I've been advocating would help find out!

What's your alternative explanation? Sometimes this just happens ex nihilo without any context? Sometimes a perfectly healthy mind just decides "well I could have a burger or I guess go kill me some children, yep mayhem it is."

Quote:
It is incredibly unfair reduce some one to a mental illness, when such a thing seems to be coincidental to what has happened. It is not shared across the board with those who have committed similar acts. What is shared, is that the perpetrators are mostly male, white and in their 20s-early 30's. Love how you don't want to actually address those sorts of things, even though they share a stronger correlation than any single mental illness.
Yes it sure is! Saying someone who needs help should get it is not reducing them to a mental illness.

If I said "white middle class women are more prone to drowning their children in botched suicide attempts" because statistically they are more likely to do so than men, that doesn't mean that gender or race are the primary causal factors.
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Old 12-27-2012, 12:45 PM   #133
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:06 PM   #134
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Guys. I think one of the problems is that we talk about more than just what's being said. It is because I think a lot of us prepare our discussions with a shit load of different perspectives on a given subject.

I think discussing things in that manner may be beyond Jon's scope.

He wants to talk about MI, but then when we bring up other things such as culture, class, privilege, and societal norms and history, he gets overwhelmed and feels like we're trying to make an affront on him from some other angle that had nothing to do with the topic.

See how he's reacted to Miss Absynth and others when the topic of the killers being white middle class males made him jump off the handle? He's not ready to admit or realize the material reality of a white man's role in society. He probably thinks society is a hodge podge of radical individuals who aren't molded by culture or social interaction.

Sorry, Jon. You are awarded no points. I think the only reason I haven't totally declared you hopeless is because I was willing to listen and learn as was others. I think someday; you'll actually want to understand others instead of expecting everyone to just understand you and let it be the end of it.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:38 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
That is the answer to your question. White middle class guys are far more likely because there are far more of them.


I JUST EXPLAINED WHY THIS IS WRONG TO YOU.


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What's your alternative explanation? Sometimes this just happens ex nihilo without any context? Sometimes a perfectly healthy mind just decides "well I could have a burger or I guess go kill me some children, yep mayhem it is."
Dude. You're not fucking listening.
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Old 12-27-2012, 03:04 PM   #136
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I am not making the claim that this is caused by lack of access. You're either bad at making logical conclusions, or intentionally straw-manning me. Considering your usual approach is most likely the latter. Human beings aren't pre-ordained to follow a particular set of behaviors from birth, those are influenced by internal factors like a person's psychology, and external factors experience, and environment.

If there is a psychological explanation for why something happens, then a better approach to giving people the help they need can make eventualities like this less likely to happen.
Liar liar pants on fire, your very first post was bemoaning how mental healthcare is too expensive and this is primarily to blame.

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Again, have fun with your **** chat.
So talking in depth about the murder of children is okay to you, but not rrape?


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So go argue with the NRA, I'm not calling for a database.
no, but you are discriminating against the mentally ill as if we're just itching to shoot up places if we don't get healthcare.

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Whites make up 70% of the US population, and the middle class close to that number. That is a huge sample. That is the answer to your question. White middle class guys are far more likely because there are far more of them.
Where are you getting your numbers? Non-Hispanic whites make 63% percent(http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/b...c2010br-02.pdf). So lets say half of that is male, and we come to 31.5% of the population being white male, regardless of class. I'm not so good with statistics to be able to calculate how much of the middle class is male, since a lot of it goes by household anyway, so let's say most white men are middle class, 75%? Now we're down to 23.6 of the population. So why aren't white middle class males representing 23.6% of mass murderers, instead of 80%? Even if every single white guy was middle class, why wouldn't they just be representing 31.5%? Especially when they are underrepresented in all other violent crimes compared to men of colour? Why has only one mass murderer in the last 30 years been a woman?

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OK, so the way science works is that at one point you have a possible explanation, and over time and research sometimes you find out what was previously believed was inaccurate or incorrect. The DSM was wrong in the past for including things that shouldn't have been considered mental illnesses, and in the future it will classify things that it currently doesn't. That is what I am "even trying to say anymore".
But you're trying to say you know better than criminal psychologists when you say they're wrong for not considering psychopaths mentally ill. Morally, its wrong to pathologize homosexuality or trans*ness. Absyinthe is right in saying the DSM is a product of culture, but in that case, psychopathy has not been included despite armchair psychologists as yourself and the media insisting that it is a mental illness.

I challenge you to even define psychopath, since I'm pretty sure you're just using the meaning you hear in movies and not the actual definition.


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Systems can have mental illness? Can buildings have them too?
Systems are often racist, sexist, classist, homophobic, ableist, etc. According to you, all evil originates from mental illness, so yes?
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Old 12-27-2012, 06:43 PM   #137
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God damn it and if it's not been said; I have no idea how to react to the reaction of the NRA right now.

Fucking... they've been driving a no nonsense white people deserve to own guns to defend their property from the government horse shit for years. YEARS.

And NOW they want to talk limiting certain firearms. THE NRA, people. Are ready to talk about that.
The NRA had just recently realized that their backing did almost nothing to help their endorsed candidates in the last election so they aren't the political powerhouse that they used to be. I'm betting that is a much more important factor in their willingness to take a slightly more moderate stance on gun control than any dead children.

Its fucked that extreme amounts of violence against children could possibly be less important in any way shape or form than political power but at least something has got them to come to the table and talk.
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Old 12-27-2012, 09:53 PM   #138
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Liar liar pants on fire, your very first post was bemoaning how mental healthcare is too expensive and this is primarily to blame.
Here's my first post: "Mentally healthy individuals do not gun down 26 people.

The de facto restriction of health care (it's expensive thus hard for people without much money to get) means some people are not getting the help they need. It's entirely possible that something like that coupled with the perception or reality of desperate conditions create an atmosphere of crushing despair that can push people to awful places.

It's all speculation at this point until more information comes out."

Is your position that mental health care costs are not a big deal? Because some people disagree http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19948605

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So talking in depth about the murder of children is okay to you, but not rrape?
Yep! No interest in discussing that with you, and since we're not locked in an elevator you can't force me to.

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no, but you are discriminating against the mentally ill as if we're just itching to shoot up places if we don't get healthcare.
Bald-faced lie. But like nearly every 'argument' we've had on this board it is due to you projecting what you wish I said instead of what I'm actually writing. Per the handy flowchart up above, this ain't a conversation.

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Where are you getting your numbers? Non-Hispanic whites make 63% percent(http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/b...c2010br-02.pdf). So lets say half of that is male, and we come to 31.5% of the population being white male, regardless of class. I'm not so good with statistics to be able to calculate how much of the middle class is male, since a lot of it goes by household anyway, so let's say most white men are middle class, 75%? Now we're down to 23.6 of the population. So why aren't white middle class males representing 23.6% of mass murderers, instead of 80%? Even if every single white guy was middle class, why wouldn't they just be representing 31.5%? Especially when they are underrepresented in all other violent crimes compared to men of colour? Why has only one mass murderer in the last 30 years been a woman?
Obviously it is because of their skin tone. There is literally no other possible explanation. I wish they warned me about it in White School.

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But you're trying to say you know better than criminal psychologists when you say they're wrong for not considering psychopaths mentally ill. Morally, its wrong to pathologize homosexuality or trans*ness. Absyinthe is right in saying the DSM is a product of culture, but in that case, psychopathy has not been included despite armchair psychologists as yourself and the media insisting that it is a mental illness.
Until people start linking to credentials everybody here is relegated to arm chair status.

http://www.med.wisc.edu/news-events/...function/32979

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I challenge you to even define psychopath, since I'm pretty sure you're just using the meaning you hear in movies and not the actual definition.
It's when someone runs down the street screaming and dripping with bl--- no wait, that's not right...
Psychopathy describes a set of characteristics that can run a range from mild to severe antisocial or amoral tendencies.

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Systems are often racist, sexist, classist, homophobic, ableist, etc. According to you, all evil originates from mental illness, so yes?
I explicitly stated that I did not believe mental illness removed individual agency, and yet here you are once again assigning things I did not say to me. It's kind of childish really.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:14 PM   #139
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Maybe this isn't related to an autism spectrum disorder at all. Maybe it is something else all together.
DING DING DING!! We have a winner!!

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What's your alternative explanation? Sometimes this just happens ex nihilo without any context? Sometimes a perfectly healthy mind just decides "well I could have a burger or I guess go kill me some children, yep mayhem it is."
I don't need to have an alternative explanation to show that your main assertion is wrong. I have already posted quite a bit of information showing just that.

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If I said "white middle class women are more prone to drowning their children in botched suicide attempts" because statistically they are more likely to do so than men, that doesn't mean that gender or race are the primary causal factors.
What you're demonstrating is correlation vs causation, which has indeed been brought up earlier against your assertion, and is also the reason I used the word in this instance.

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*snip* ... they share a stronger correlation than any single mental illness.
About your stats, they are much better posted in context. They are very informative about children who have been found to have Autism, none of which support your link between Autism and violence.
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Old 12-27-2012, 10:21 PM   #140
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DING DING DING!! We have a winner!!

I don't need to have an alternative explanation to show that your main assertion is wrong. I have already posted quite a bit of information showing just that.

What you're demonstrating is correlation vs causation, which has indeed been brought up earlier against your assertion, and is also the reason I used the word in this instance.

About your stats, they are much better posted in context. They are very informative about children who have been found to have Autism, none of which support your link between Autism and violence.
Well if the killers weren't autistic, then they couldn't have possibly have had some other mental disorder. Perfectly healthy minds it is. I guess thread's over.
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Old 12-27-2012, 11:43 PM   #141
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It doesn't have to be over. I've been trying to understand this phenomenon better. Here is the article I'm reading right now, its rather long but so far its been interesting.

http://www.academia.edu/1199492/Hege..._United_States

From what I understand this far, it has a lot to do with how these people feel in relation to where they stand in the pecking order of man.
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Old 12-28-2012, 07:46 AM   #142
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Here's my first post: "Mentally healthy individuals do not gun down 26 people.

The de facto restriction of health care (it's expensive thus hard for people without much money to get) means some people are not getting the help they need. It's entirely possible that something like that coupled with the perception or reality of desperate conditions create an atmosphere of crushing despair that can push people to awful places.

It's all speculation at this point until more information comes out."

Is your position that mental health care costs are not a big deal? Because some people disagree http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19948605
Very much irrelevant to the particular case; the Lanzas were very rich and from what we know had access to mental healthcare and more likely than not took advantage of it. We knew that from the very beginning. But hey, its a white boy commiting crimes, it must mean he's crazy. Healthcare had absolutely nothing to do with this case.

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Yep! No interest in discussing that with you, and since we're not locked in an elevator you can't force me to.
How come? Does it make you uncomfortable? Why are you so comfortable talking about grandmothers getting hammered? Do you have a mental illness?


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Bald-faced lie. But like nearly every 'argument' we've had on this board it is due to you projecting what you wish I said instead of what I'm actually writing. Per the handy flowchart up above, this ain't a conversation.
Well, you are the one saying only the mentally ill have the capacity to commit atrocities, so yes, yes you are implying we are just ticking time bombs.

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Obviously it is because of their skin tone. There is literally no other possible explanation. I wish they warned me about it in White School.
Or maybe whiteness and white culture? Have you lived this long and not really thought about what it means to be white?

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Until people start linking to credentials everybody here is relegated to arm chair status.
But we're not the ones saying we can decide what is a disorder and what's not based on our emotional opinion on the fact.


Difference does not mean disorder, and like Absynthe said, its a spectrum. Gay brains are different. Trans brains are different. Women brains are different. Are we all disordered?

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It's when someone runs down the street screaming and dripping with bl--- no wait, that's not right...
Psychopathy describes a set of characteristics that can run a range from mild to severe antisocial or amoral tendencies.
THERE YOU GO. Being selfish does not mean one is mentally ill. Being callous does not mean one is mentally ill. It might make one an asshole, but not mentally ill.


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I explicitly stated that I did not believe mental illness removed individual agency, and yet here you are once again assigning things I did not say to me. It's kind of childish really.
You said that all atrocities, and remember I even brought up the Holocaust and the slave trade, had to be committed by the mentally ill. You leave no room for people with no mental illnesses to even be able to commit evil.
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Old 12-28-2012, 10:19 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Saya View Post
Very much irrelevant to the particular case; the Lanzas were very rich and from what we know had access to mental healthcare and more likely than not took advantage of it. We knew that from the very beginning. But hey, its a white boy commiting crimes, it must mean he's crazy. Healthcare had absolutely nothing to do with this case.
What you don't know is whether whatever care he may have received was sufficient. 26 dead people say it wasn't.

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How come? Does it make you uncomfortable? Why are you so comfortable talking about grandmothers getting hammered? Do you have a mental illness?
Because I don't want to. Do I owe you a conversation on this? Are you entitled?

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Well, you are the one saying only the mentally ill have the capacity to commit atrocities, so yes, yes you are implying we are just ticking time bombs.
It also requires fingers to pull a trigger, but I'm not saying everyone with fingers is a mass killer in waiting. You are deliberately and falsely assigning arguments to me. How many examples are we up to now?

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Or maybe whiteness and white culture? Have you lived this long and not really thought about what it means to be white?
Yeah it means I fill in one circle on EOE forms as opposed to another. I also get a secret special tax rate at the end of the year but we aren't supposed to tell anyone.

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But we're not the ones saying we can decide what is a disorder and what's not based on our emotional opinion on the fact.
It's got nothing to do with emotional opinion.

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Difference does not mean disorder, and like Absynthe said, its a spectrum. Gay brains are different. Trans brains are different. Women brains are different. Are we all disordered?
Well other than having a hard time not superimposing your delusional interpretation over what I'm saying, it's hard to tell.

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THERE YOU GO. Being selfish does not mean one is mentally ill. Being callous does not mean one is mentally ill. It might make one an asshole, but not mentally ill.
Taken to extremes it can be though. And it doesn't get much more extreme than killing a shitload of people.

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You said that all atrocities, and remember I even brought up the Holocaust and the slave trade, had to be committed by the mentally ill. You leave no room for people with no mental illnesses to even be able to commit evil.
So indifference to cruelty, or deriving pleasure from inflicting it; these are traits common to healthy minds.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:09 AM   #144
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So indifference to cruelty, or deriving pleasure from inflicting it; these are traits common to healthy minds.
Ho-lee shit, Jon. Since you know; why don't you explain to us HOW a perfectly healthy and properly functioning brain looks and behaves like.

Oh this is just rich. It is RICH, Jon. RICH! What in the shit is with you? Do you seriously believe that healthy minds are INCAPABLE of doing wrong? Are you seriously going to tell us that any time someone who is perfectly sane decides to commit an act of evil (or even an act of justice in some cases), that they have gone crazy?

I get it now. YOU think a healthy mind is an orderly mind. A mind that doesn't rock the boat at all and can not be deemed unhealthy by any doctors?

Well guys. We should just pack it up. We've learned that healthy sane minds never do anything radical or extreme in any measure.

Jon. You buffoon.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:42 AM   #145
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Ho-lee shit, Jon. Since you know; why don't you explain to us HOW a perfectly healthy and properly functioning brain looks and behaves like.
Do you actually need someone to explain to you why most people do not go on murder sprees?

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Oh this is just rich. It is RICH, Jon. RICH! What in the shit is with you? Do you seriously believe that healthy minds are INCAPABLE of doing wrong? Are you seriously going to tell us that any time someone who is perfectly sane decides to commit an act of evil (or even an act of justice in some cases), that they have gone crazy?
Leaving aside the difference between an otherwise healthy person experiencing a sudden psychological break and someone who may have been affected with a disorder but improperly diagnosed or treated, I'm saying that for someone to commit an atrocity of the scale that these last few mass killings reached requires a sick mind. My theory is some of these people were sick to begin with, and doing a better job of detecting and treating would mitigate some of the damage that could otherwise result.

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I get it now. YOU think a healthy mind is an orderly mind. A mind that doesn't rock the boat at all and can not be deemed unhealthy by any doctors?
Oh, so mass murder - just rocking the boat. Shaking things up a little to keep it from getting boring.

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Well guys. We should just pack it up. We've learned that healthy sane minds never do anything radical or extreme in any measure.

Jon. You buffoon.
After well over 1400 posts, your ad hominems leave a fuckton to be desired.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:57 AM   #146
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Ableism is pretty fucking disgusting.

Does fucking someone of the same sex make a person gay? Of course not.

Does committing acts of violence make somebody mentally disordered? Obviously. That's just common sense. I don't need a doctor to answer that for me.

You're so fucking ignorant. Terms like "most people" or "normal" are relative. It was normal to kill people. Society had a contagious mental illness that most people must have developed an immunity to.
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Old 12-28-2012, 11:59 AM   #147
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There are alot of ad-hominems being thrown around in this thread.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:07 PM   #148
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Ableism is pretty fucking disgusting.

Does fucking someone of the same sex make a person gay? Of course not.

Does committing acts of violence make somebody mentally disordered? Obviously. That's just common sense. I don't need a doctor to answer that for me.
You're right. We should embrace mass murderers and celebrate the unique perspective their contributions to society afford us. Wouldn't want to be ableist.

Here's to those visionaries, may they ever rock the boat.
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:14 PM   #149
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You're right. We should embrace mass murderers and celebrate the unique perspective their contributions to society afford us. Wouldn't want to be ableist.
Well, maybe we should draw the line with that. Like, for example, I could gobble a thousand knobs and still be strait, but because mass murder = crazy, how many people do I have to kill before I'm crazy? Does my military service absolve me of that special status?
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Old 12-28-2012, 12:28 PM   #150
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Well, maybe we should draw the line with that. Like, for example, I could gobble a thousand knobs and still be strait, but because mass murder = crazy, how many people do I have to kill before I'm crazy? Does my military service absolve me of that special status?
Gobble to your heart's content. Mangia! ;-)

Why are you killing anyone? Is it because it makes you feel good? Is it because you lose control of your actions and after the red mist fades they're just lying there? Is it because your goldfish is the prophet of God and told you to? Is it because even though you are in complete control of your actions, you register no particular emotional response to them so why not?

*Using a rhetorical "you"; I can't believe I feel like such a moronic disclaimer is required, but here we are
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