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Old 07-01-2007, 04:22 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyntrox
Well, it seems you can mock goths... But imagine if it had said something like: "Unlike that creepy *insert debasing word for gay people*, who can be a bad influence."

You're not wrong there. Had there been any other minority group of any sort mentioned, all hell would have broken loose. The same could be said for many other groups. What Ikea did is politically incorrect, however, and I've said this before, we, as a nation, get too caught up in our own paranoia to put things into perspective. There are people who are ignorant; who are not going to understand what Goth is, and are going to make stupid generalizations. But, again, I repeat myself, it is in human nature to mock what he cannot completely understand or identify.
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Old 07-01-2007, 05:34 PM   #27
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WWWWwweeeelllll, that's the problem.

You can't reasonably "fight" for equality for something like goth when people can just tell you to... grow up or stop being goth.

Actually, I think it'd be weird to be governmentally protected for my choice in sub/culture.

Believe me though, that's a hard fucking pill to swallow for me.

I'd love to see a world where people thought it was bad to channel their hate and fear on sub cultures. But realistically, we DO NOT have enough people to consider ourselves an actual people.

It's not like the gay community, though I think the struggle for equal treatment for gays is a step in the right direction. I just wish enough people had enough sense to include all the counter culture people.

Well... damn. Besides, every "reasonable" person's rhetoric to what I'm saying is to just get over it or it's not that big of a deal.
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Old 07-02-2007, 12:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by KontanKarite
They said they got a LOT of feedback. I just hate to think what some angsty Mansonite would have said.
It kinda makes me not blame people for their reactions on goths in the first place, even if they're grossly unfounded.
True. I suppose that the ad meant "angsty-mansonite kind of teenager" instead of "goth". Most of the people seeing the ad won't know what a true goth is anyway...


It is funny that you talk about taking goth "as a nation", Aaroneet, because I have myself wondered about it too. Could we be considered a harassed minority? (I mean, from the political point of view). How many goths are there in the world?

Oh, and Methadrine, I truly don't think that the word "normal" would have offended anyone. I have found (to my surprise) that mainstreams all think of themselves as extremely individual and original people. Don't ask me why, I suppose it's just high opinion of themselves... and yet they don't ever miss the chance to mark and exclude the ones who are truly different.
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Old 07-02-2007, 01:49 PM   #29
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Anything you identify with can be considered a group. The way I think of it, any group discriminated against (or is simply a classification of people) can be considered a minority.
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Old 07-02-2007, 02:45 PM   #30
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I sent them a polite email about it, and all I got in the mail was an advertisement. Ah well.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:03 PM   #31
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Goth isn't a minority in the sense that being black, Hindu, or a woman is. If you don't like being harrassed for being a goth, you can change it with ease. Honestly, it isn't as important as other true minorities are.
You could discriminate against people with short hair, but that doesn't make them a minority.
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Old 07-03-2007, 03:05 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by badteccy
I sent them a polite email about it, and all I got in the mail was an advertisement. Ah well.
They probably thought that by saying "I have a problem with this ad" you meant "I'd love to shop at IKEA more often, but I lack information regarding your variety of products, prices, and store location." It's an understandable mistake.
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Old 07-03-2007, 06:36 PM   #33
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But of course.
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Old 07-04-2007, 10:06 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
Goth isn't a minority in the sense that being black, Hindu, or a woman is. If you don't like being harrassed for being a goth, you can change it with ease. Honestly, it isn't as important as other true minorities are.
You could discriminate against people with short hair, but that doesn't make them a minority.
Sure, but then, what is the exact difference between a minority and a harassed group?
Women are discriminated, but they're not a minority (in fact, I think there are more women than men in the world- the number is not significant, but it's slightly bigger I think). If you put black, asian, and latino people together, for sure there are bigger in number than white people; and yet they're discriminated.
I'm not saying that our problems are as big as the ones those groups have... but yet, isn't the underlying problem the same? Fear for what is different?

And we still are subculture. Sub-CULTURE. I think I didn't manage to make myself understood, but what I meant was more in the lines of "are we different enough from the stablished society as to be considered a group apart from it?".
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Old 07-04-2007, 11:05 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by Lady_Lacrimosa_Umbrae
Sure, but then, what is the exact difference between a minority and a harassed group?
Women are discriminated, but they're not a minority (in fact, I think there are more women than men in the world- the number is not significant, but it's slightly bigger I think). If you put black, asian, and latino people together, for sure there are bigger in number than white people; and yet they're discriminated.
I'm not saying that our problems are as big as the ones those groups have... but yet, isn't the underlying problem the same? Fear for what is different?

And we still are subculture. Sub-CULTURE. I think I didn't manage to make myself understood, but what I meant was more in the lines of "are we different enough from the stablished society as to be considered a group apart from it?".
Women are a minority. What makes a minority is not actual numbers of members, but that they are the oppressed group.

And honestly, my point was this: if you're a woman and being discriminated against, you cannot easily change who you are.
If you're goth and you can't handle being discriminated against, change your clothes. It's that simple. You can still be goth and not be so flashy about it. The other things aren't that simple.
Not only that, but people are murdered for being gay, female, black, whatever. Not for being goth. It isn't a big deal.

You choose to be goth. If you can't handle it, that doesn't make you a minority, it just means you have to deal with it, find a way to cope, or change.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:06 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
Women are a minority. What makes a minority is not actual numbers of members, but that they are the oppressed group.

And honestly, my point was this: if you're a woman and being discriminated against, you cannot easily change who you are.
If you're goth and you can't handle being discriminated against, change your clothes. It's that simple. You can still be goth and not be so flashy about it. The other things aren't that simple.
Not only that, but people are murdered for being gay, female, black, whatever. Not for being goth. It isn't a big deal.

You choose to be goth. If you can't handle it, that doesn't make you a minority, it just means you have to deal with it, find a way to cope, or change.
People get murdered for being goth, love. It happens. I know first hand.
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Old 07-04-2007, 12:37 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by KontanKarite
People get murdered for being goth, love. It happens. I know first hand.
I really really have a hard time believing that. Someone being murdered that is goth, sure, but because they're goth? I doubt it. I think there would be an underlying cause.
But all skepticism aside, that doesn't happen nearly as much as the other examples, and it still doesn't answer for the fact that if you don't like it, change. People of other minorities can't change with that ease.
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Old 07-04-2007, 03:24 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaroneet
Honestly, I agree with that. If anything, we're becoming so worried about political correctness that we're losing ourselves in our own paranoia. The media portrays everything that is "feared" by the natural man with stereotypes. It's just human nature.
I dop agree also. We need to stop being paranoid and lighten up. The media will be like this for the next of forever, so we need to stop worrying about it.
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Old 07-06-2007, 08:18 PM   #39
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Goths aren't the only people IKEA disrespects,
now they're destroying ancient tombs Nanjing...

http://www.reuters.com/article/lifes...34443620070703
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Old 07-07-2007, 01:36 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
I really really have a hard time believing that. Someone being murdered that is goth, sure, but because they're goth? I doubt it. I think there would be an underlying cause.
But all skepticism aside, that doesn't happen nearly as much as the other examples, and it still doesn't answer for the fact that if you don't like it, change. People of other minorities can't change with that ease.
Quite right, dear. Quite right. It's easy to change clothes, it's hard to change the mind.
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Old 07-07-2007, 02:05 PM   #41
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You don't even have to change your mind. If people are harassing you and it's that big of a deal, stop dressing goth. You can keep being goth in your mind, but stop dressing that way and/or stop making a spectacle of yourself.
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Old 07-07-2007, 03:31 PM   #42
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I have seen news about people getting murdered because they dressed goth- it does happen.
True, I suppose that changing the clothes would make it easier... but you would still be an outcast to many people for the way you think.

Anyway, my point was different... I get the impression that it was like a big misunderstanding for not explaining myself well ^^U Sorry.
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Old 07-10-2007, 08:59 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Underwater Ophelia
You don't even have to change your mind. If people are harassing you and it's that big of a deal, stop dressing goth. You can keep being goth in your mind, but stop dressing that way and/or stop making a spectacle of yourself.
Simplest solution, isn't it? But hey, anyone wearing a turban is feared because of the turban. They could remove it, but... that would just be disrespectful to them, wouldn't it.

As I've said thousands of times before. It probably isn't best to be an enabler for other people's misguided hate and misunderstandings. It's not for me to change the minds and hearts of others. I simply feel that certain behavioral habbits are wrong and should not be deemed as okay.
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Old 07-10-2007, 09:08 AM   #44
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Simplest solution, isn't it? But hey, anyone wearing a turban is feared because of the turban. They could remove it, but... that would just be disrespectful to them, wouldn't it.

As I've said thousands of times before. It probably isn't best to be an enabler for other people's misguided hate and misunderstandings. It's not for me to change the minds and hearts of others. I simply feel that certain behavioral habbits are wrong and should not be deemed as okay.
If they don't want to deal with the shit, take it off.
My thoughts are: If you are different, cool, but be prepared to get shit. If you can't take it, don't just bitch, do something about it. If you don't, it's your own fault.

It shouldn't be that way, but it is. And some kid in black isn't going to change it.


Anyway, the whole point of this was that goth shouldn't be considered a minority. Which I stick by.
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Old 07-10-2007, 09:51 AM   #45
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my two cents

I am the member of a minority (black), so I understand the point of saying that certain subcultures can change to accommodate narrow minds, but as a goth, I have to say that we shouldn't be forced to conform our likes, tastes, dislikes or what we like to wear to please others. When you do that you start a dangerous precedent of living your life to please other people. I did that for years and it left me suicidal and unhappy -- because I wasn't being true to myself.

Then one day I had an epiphany. No matter what you do or say, not everyone will like you, agree with you -- hell, some people might not like your eye color hair or height. The problem isn't with you, it is them.

Dr Suess said it best when he penned, "Be yourself , cause those who matter don't mind, and those who mind, don't matter"

I kept that saying close to my heart and now I am unabashedly me. Someone doesn't like it --they can eat it. They get into my face, they get it back even harder.

I bow, scrape and submit to no man.

Our clothing is as much an expression of who we are as the music we like and the movies we watch --it is an expression of self. If someone said, hey don't buy that CD or listen to that music -- don't eat that sandwich or cut your hair that way, or we will snub you -- would you do it?

If so, you are already a slave to the machine, or as a good friend of mine would say, grist for the mill.

In a free society, no one should be forced to wear khaki pants and blue button downs if that isn't their cup of tee. What makes the world vibrant and interesting is diversity -- diversity shouldn't be brow beaten into submission by narrow minded, ignorant folks -- if this were the case --I'd probably still be in shackles and chains and told I couldn't use a white man's toilet. No hun. It is society who must change-- yes some will be brow beaten along the way, but it is the ones who stand up for themselves who will pave the way for other people's ability to be whoever they want to be, and express it any way they see fit without fear , intimidation and brainwashing to conform.
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Old 07-10-2007, 10:05 AM   #46
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Ok, well change society, then. You have my thoughts.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:07 AM   #47
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Ah, Rae seems to have the right idea.

It's not about offending. I do not wear my black to offend. My intention is to make ME feel GOOD about myself.

We can not FORCE society to change. To mess with free will is vulger on all accounts. But we must not allow certain frames of mind to go unchecked.

A kind of social judo is in order. It is good to not let people walk on you, to instill a certain amount of respect between both parties, but it is bad to outright fight with others.

I am where I am today, a goth who can wear and do as he pleases BECAUSE instead of fighting against people's anger and disdain against what I look like, I take their misunderstandings and shatter it, making them think of things just a bit more than usual.

The clothes cease to matter because people are more interested in my sense of self and good nature than they are about the black on my back.

If we can keep who we are while others gain a new sense of seeing things, then doesn't all parties win in the end?

No one should abolish who they are to please the minds of others.

The only thing we should all do is follow the golden rule. Treat others as we want to be treated. Why change yourself if you are not harming anyone or anything?
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:12 AM   #48
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That's all well and good, but kinda dances around my point. First of all, you said for you, it isn't a problem. Ok...what about where it is? Sometimes, you can be nice all you want, and people just won't give a damn.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure this argument started out with debating whether or not goth is a true "minority." Can we get back to that?
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:29 AM   #49
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You are right -- Goth is not technically a minority as defined by the census bureau -- it is a subculture. But when you couple the literal translation of what a minority is, then it isn't simply being a part of an oppressed group, but also, being "small in number" . In this regard, Goth IS a minority -- it depends on what angle you are looking at the definition.

Where ignorance and prejudice is a problem it must be stamped out. We shouldn't say it is the fault of the free thinker that the world is unable to fathom him -- it is the mobs fault.

Many a great man would have never come to be if they had allowed society to dictate their actions. Like Martin Luther King -- or Ghandi.

I am sure people were telling them to shut the hell up -- play nice. Don't make waves.

But they didn't let society change them. They changed society.

Even though people died -- and were called names -- and picked on.

It was a price paid for freedom.

Let's not de-evolve in our thinking. Stand up to bullies -- and be who you are, no matter what.

Slavery ended for my people a couple of hundred years ago -- but people are still being enslaved with rhetoric and the call to force people to be like everyone else.

Ralph Waldo Ermerson wrote one of my fave essays which was called SELF RELIANCE. In it, he states that society will whip you with it's displeasure any time you dare to think outside the box.

He also said that it is the duty of the free thinker to be themselves no matter how society reacts to him.

I am not a slave.

I am free.

It is the man who cannot accept that who is a slave.

Why bow down to a servant.

Invicitus says we are the captains of our fates and the masters of our souls--if we allow idiots to force us to run home and dress like J-Lo, then we are robots -- not men.

We are slaves.
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Old 07-10-2007, 11:42 AM   #50
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So well put. The beauty of that is that it's not all about goth as a minority but that we pick and choose our fights.

My father tells me time and time again that if I adhered more to what pop culture was doing, I would have a better life.

How is he to know that? Does power and money truely equate to happiness? I think not.

He is right though. If I were to do as pop culture says to do, I would no doubt be at least quite infamous like my sister. But it's not the kind of life I want to lead. I should define myself through my own actions and choices.

The day I become a part of popular culture, it will be a choice of my own and at that time I will be happy with that choice. But for now, I have my own sense of self.

I am alternative and I have yet to see how anyone has suffered from such personal choices so far.
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